Gohan in GT

[ahill1]

Was Gohan as strong as his Ultimate self from the battle vs Super Boo? Or did he lose power?

Why?

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't think he's Ultimate anymore in GT.

 

[ahill1]

So he's less powerful? What do you think about the GT Perfect Files saying he didn't neglect his training? Maybe SSJ was his way of breaking through the previous Ultimate state limits? Idk.

 

[SIAD]

His Ultimate state was his new hyper-powered Base form. I really believe that in DBGT, his Ultimate form transformed into his new Base form and at some point in the 1st year of DBGT, Gohan managed to transform into SSJ and against Super #17 he regained his SSJ2 form.

 

[SIAD]

Piccolo praised Gohan in Episode 40 of DBGT for how strong he has become, after receiving Baby Gohan's SSJ Kamehameha. Even though Piccolo had known the power of Ultimate Gohan 16 years ago.

Base Gohan (Arc Super #17) competed against General Rildo, the same character who was stronger than Gohan Boo.

 

[Spiral-Force]

The guide said he continued training, but he had no notable solo dub in the show, so it's like - who cares. I'm not part of the camp that says he got weaker though.

 

[Papasmurf]

So he's less powerful? What do you think about the GT Perfect Files saying he didn't neglect his training? Maybe SSJ was his way of breaking through the previous Ultimate state limits? Idk.

The GT writers openly said he ditched his fighter roots and that there was such a thing as Ultimate Gohan in Z that was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but he's not that guy. Toei and Toriyama also seem to view SSJ and Ultimate as incompatible with each other.

 

[ahill1]

The guide said he continued training, but he had no notable solo dub in the show, so it's like - who cares. I'm not part of the camp that says he got weaker though.

Well, for me it's interesting because it'd give a more definitive scaling for Rild, for instance. If he outperformed someone as strong or stronger than Ultimate Gohan, then the comparison between Rild and Boohan would make total sense.

@Papasmurf

It was said the Ultimate concept was cut off, that could be in relation to his status as a ultimate fighter, the mightiest warrior, who holds the strongest power, which wasn't the case in GT, not necessarily his ability granted by the Elder Kaioshin. I also think stopping fighting # from not training. He may have dedicated himself to academic style mostly, not prioritizing serious training because he doesn't feel the need to, but that may go well with some maintenance training in the sense of keeping up his sharpness.

 

[Papasmurf]

Gohan in Super Hero also did some maintenance training like practicing the Makankosappo without Piccolo's tutelage but his lack of warrior spirit softened him up. I think it's a similar case here. The writers said they envisioned a return to warrior roots episode for him but it never came to fruition. It doesn't seem like he was a battle ready warrior anymore in GT.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan in Super Hero also did some maintenance training like practicing the Makankosappo without Piccolo's tutelage but his lack of warrior spirit softened him up. I think it's a similar case here. The writers said they envisioned a return to warrior roots episode for him but it never came to fruition. It doesn't seem like he was a battle ready warrior anymore in GT.

Perhaps. But Super has a different direction. Gohan seems softened up there moreso than when he's seen in GT. Characters in Super in general seems more dependant upon others. Piccolo never trained Gohan in GT and he was way weaker than Gohan there. I'd also argue that Gohan when facing Rild had some Ultimate features like the fully outlined eyes, it seems. Maybe it was more like a change in the way he portrayed himself, wearing work clothes rather than battle clothes and all. For example, in the Daizenshuu, while Gohan was called the Mightiest Warrior upon the potential unlock, 10 years later at the 28th Budokai, he had his form/state described as "father" despite him still sharing the Ultimate traits... But the way he showed himself, with glasses and formal clothes made that distinction, in a way.

 

[Papasmurf]

Gohan had sharpened eyes in the DBS anime even prior to reunlocking Ultimate so I don't think that's much of an indicator here. He's not a warrior anymore in GT, that much is evident going by official sources.

 

[ahill1]

Well, not being a warrior may speak about his priority... Not his lack of power. Just that he doesn't care about going to the front lines unless it's necessary like when Pan was in risk. Outside of that, he has other priorities.

 

[ahill1]

Besides, did Gohan have the full outlined eyes on Super before unlocking Ultimate tho? Or just sharp eyes?

 

[Papasmurf]

Besides, did Gohan have the full outlined eyes on Super before unlocking Ultimate tho? Or just sharp eyes?

Fully outlined post-U6 saga. Same appearance as his nerdy design in BoG.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Well, for me it's interesting because it'd give a more definitive scaling for Rild, for instance. If he outperformed someone as strong or stronger than Ultimate Gohan, then the comparison between Rild and Boohan would make total sense.

At that point, Rilldo's relevance was almost entirely zero. Even in the Baby Arc, he was only semi-relevant. So I could see why that encounter didn't offer much of anything. While a snoozefest - from the little fighting that did happen, Rilldo appeared to have the upperhand.

 

[ahill1]

At that point, Rilldo's relevance was almost entirely zero. Even in the Baby Arc, he was only semi-relevant. So I could see why that encounter didn't offer much of anything. While a snoozefest - from the little fighting that did happen, Rilldo appeared to have the upperhand.

Yes, I'm only talking through a scaling perspective, i.e, if Rild was stronger than a Gohan who was >= his Ultimate Z self, then that would make sense for him to be stronger than Boohan and would set a high ground for base Goku, whereas many people interpret Goku referring to Rild in comparison to kid Boo, or fat Boo. With Kid Boo, eh who knows, if GT follows the anime scaling, then perhaps that person sees him as being stronger than the strongest Boo either way as the anime had Goku saying kid Boo was more powerful than every Boo. Still though, the own anime contradicts it previously, so eh.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yes, I'm only talking through a scaling perspective, i.e, if Rild was stronger than a Gohan who was >= his Ultimate Z self, then that would make sense for him to be stronger than Boohan and would set a high ground for base Goku, whereas many people interpret Goku referring to Rild in comparison to kid Boo, or fat Boo. With Kid Boo, eh who knows, if GT follows the anime scaling, then perhaps that person sees him as being stronger than the strongest Boo either way as the anime had Goku saying kid Boo was more powerful than every Boo. Still though, the own anime contradicts it previously, so eh.

I understand what you mean. If Rilldo went out there and flatlined Gohan, it would reinforce the scale that's indicated from the Goku battle. However, overall I'd characterise such a scenario as being "too little, too late" as they say, as Rilldo got vaporised soon after that encounter, and Buu Arc top tier was old news by this stage of the show even without the Rilldo scaling.

In terms of Buu/Rilldo -- and other scenarios where a newer character is said to have surpassed a past one -- it ought to be standard for the newer character to be above them altogether when the statement doesn't contain a qualifier of some kind. I'd say the comparison wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I imagine he trained, but not in Ultimate and ended up losing that form. Still, his Base/SSJ power is greatly above what it was in the Boo Saga since he can handle SSJ Baby Goten without transforming.

 

[ahill1]

I understand what you mean. If Rilldo went out there and flatlined Gohan, it would reinforce the scale that's indicated from the Goku battle. However, overall I'd characterise such a scenario as being "too little, too late" as they say, as Rilldo got vaporised soon after that encounter, and Buu Arc top tier was old news by this stage of the show even without the Rilldo scaling.

In terms of Buu/Rilldo -- and other scenarios where a newer character is said to have surpassed a past one -- it ought to be standard for the newer character to be above them altogether when the statement doesn't contain a qualifier of some kind. I'd say the comparison wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

I see. But if Goku says he's stronger than Boo, I'm skeptical to say that, based on the comparison alone, without looking at the scaling in its fullest, that it'd be in regards to Boo at his best. Boo has shown many forms, and there are states from Boo who are not so much tied with the other one. I think people could argue Goku was referring to a Boo he had more familiarity with -- either fat Boo from a interaction perspective or kid Boo from a battle perspective.

With Cell, for example, I would say it would be way more definitive as Cell's many forms are more tied up to his own being, it's Cell who was evolving himself and reaching the complete form. With Boo, I dunno, it's tough to put into words what makes him way different from Cell, for me, exactly, but I think there are more nuances when his name is mentioned to be simply defaulted to his strongest iteration. I think Goku refusing to fuse with the Potaras saying Boo was on his own now, not fused with anyone (Kid Boo), while he earlier stated what Boohan did was cheating -- absorbing so many people -- may also speak to a Boo he considers more authentic and the representation of Boo himself -- kid Boo, also desired by him to be the one reincarnated as a good being to have a final battle with.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I see. But if Goku says he's stronger than Boo, I'm skeptical to say that, based on the comparison alone, without looking at the scaling in its fullest, that it'd be in regards to Boo at his best. Boo has shown many forms, and there are states from Boo who are not so much tied with the other one. I think people could argue Goku was referring to a Boo he had more familiarity with -- either fat Boo from a interaction perspective or kid Boo from a battle perspective.

With Cell, for example, I would say it would be way more definitive as Cell's many forms are more tied up to his own being, it's Cell who was evolving himself and reaching the complete form. With Boo, I dunno, it's tough to put into words what makes him way different from Cell, for me, exactly, but I think there are more nuances when his name is mentioned to be simply defaulted to his strongest iteration. I think Goku refusing to fuse with the Potaras saying Boo was on his own now, not fused with anyone (Kid Boo), while he earlier stated what Boohan did was cheating -- absorbing so many people -- may also speak to a Boo he considers more authentic and the representation of Boo himself -- kid Boo, also desired by him to be the one reincarnated as a good being to have a final battle with.

I'd argue that power should be the focus above all else. If a villain shows their power and it's fully acknowledged by the person gauging it, I don't see what more familiarity would be required. I'd need to see something from Goku to suggest he'd deliberately make a comparison that waters down 1 out of 2 of the fighters being compared.

The story had its fair share of moments where Buu referred to Majin Buu as a collective entity. That's perfect for someone as simple as Goku.