Goku SSJ [vs Yakon]

[ahill1]

When he had the 3000 kiri reading. Was him at full power? 50%? Above 50%? Or only at a small portion of his full power, like at 10% or less (based on the 50x SSJ multiplier)?

 

[Classic Adamas]

I'm pretty sure it was implied or stated that Goku only used his SSJ for a light source, so no, I don't think he was at full power.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah, I can buy him not being FP at the time, although I highly doubt Toriyama wrote that scene thinking a 3.5x difference is way too small to represent the 50x increase of SSJ or something like that.

 

[ahill1]

How strong do you guys have Goku SSJ at that moment then?

 

[Classic Adamas]

Below 50% SSJ, probably.

 

[Papasmurf]

30% of his FP sounds good. I don't think he'd be suppressing his ki so much he'd end up at 10 or 15% of his ki or something like that.

 

[ahill1]

@Papasmurf, @MysticYamcha

I don't know if 30% works... 50% MSSJ Goku didn't even display an aura, while against Yakon Goku did.

 

[Papasmurf]

He was generating enough force to nearly blow apart the tower and was felt worldwide, so I don't think his lack of an aura there meant much.

 

[SSJ2]

@Papasmurf, @MysticYamcha

I don't know if 30% works... 50% MSSJ Goku didn't even display an aura, while against Yakon Goku did.

Goku didn't create an aura in the later stages of his fight with Freeza, so...

 

[Papasmurf]

Well, people's auras tend to drop when they've been in Super Saiyan for a while in general. Trunks had no aura just after killing Freeza despite not powering down or anything.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku should be weaker than Gohan as SSj at least which mean he could be anywhere near to his 50%.

 

[Future Warrior]

Definitely not using 100%, otherwise Vegeta would have know from the start that he already surpassed Kid Gohan.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I think he probably used 50% or less when he transformed the first time. When he did it the 2nd time, I believe he was at full-power since he quickly upped his power to Super Saiyan 2

 

[ahill1]

I think he probably used 50% or less when he transformed the first time. When he did it the 2nd time, I believe he was at full-power since he quickly upped his power to Super Saiyan 2

So the SSJ multiplier would be far less than 50x? Because Goku base was on par with Yakon.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Probably. Hard to tell since we don't know how Kiri is read.

 

[Goku9001]

Personally, I see it like this:

SSJ Goku - 7500
SSJ Vegeta - 6000
SSJ Gohan - 4800
Dabura - 4400
Base Goku - 750

I honestly think this works the best as I believe Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabura, yet Dabura was implied to be above 3k which would put Gohan above 3k as well. That would lead to the implication that Goku wasn't at Full Power vs Yakon as if he was, SSJ Goku would be inferior to SSJ Gohan which contradicts the manga.

I stuck with a 10x multiplier as it makes things much less extravagant which I believe with the multiple implications within the manga such as the Base Saiyans being leagues above Piccolo, I found it was necessary. I believe that this conforms to AT's original thoughts of the 50 multiplier being too extravagant to accept and with the placement of the Base Saiyan's strength, I found that it was logical to reduce the multiplier to make how AT depicted the story far more acceptable without making things extremely bloated.

Anywho, with this, Base Goku would be close to Yakon which was shown in the manga while still having proper spacing.

 

[ahill1]

I honestly think this works the best as I believe Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabura, yet Dabura was implied to be above 3k which would put Gohan above 3k as well. That would lead to the implication that Goku wasn't at Full Power vs Yakon as if he was, SSJ Goku would be inferior to SSJ Gohan which contradicts the manga.

I see, but what about Goku ~50% doesn't displaying an aura at Karin's place, while against Yakon he displayed one? Does not it imply Goku > 50% at Yakon?

I stuck with a 10x multiplier as it makes things much less extravagant

The problem I see with the 10x multiplier in the Boo saga is that it'd put the Kids SSJ about 10x above #18, which I feel a bit hard to believe considering Goten was close to Gohan while in same forms.

Besides, one could always ask: if the SSJ multiplier is 10x, why didn't Goku use the Kaioken x20? But probably it's more a plot thing than any other thing.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Because kaioken was retcon.

 

[Goku9001]

I see, but what about Goku ~50% doesn't displaying an aura at Karin's place, while against Yakon he displayed one? Does not it imply Goku > 50% at Yakon?

No, because auras tend to disappear for obscure reasons and are generally not an reflection of how much power a person is putting out.

The problem I see with the 10x multiplier in the Boo saga is that it'd put the Kids SSJ about 10x above #18, which I feel a bit hard to believe considering Goten was close to Gohan while in same forms.

Or simply put Base Goten far above Android 18 and chalk up their inability in beating her due to the lack of coordination in using their legs (since Goten was incapable of fighting back) and the suit drastically hindering their speed.

Besides, one could always ask: if the SSJ multiplier is 10x, why didn't Goku use the Kaioken x20? But probably it's more a plot thing than any other thing.

I went by AT's perspective. He thinks 50x multiplier is far too extravagant to grasp for readers and the fact that the Base Saiyans are implied to be leagues beyond Piccolo makes things far too bloated for readers which is why people deliberately contradict the manga by placing them below Frieza. By reducing the multipler, conforming to AT's perspective is far easier and makes the idea that Base Saiyans > Piccolo much more acceptable as their SSJ power is far less bloated.

Super Saiyans being 5-10x than Kaioshin is much easier to grasp than them being over 50x stronger than Kaioshin if you followed the conventonal multiplier.

 

[ahill1]

No, because auras tend to disappear for obscure reasons and are generally not an reflection of how much power a person is putting out.

Well I think the auras argument is a pretty good one. Show me one example of a fighter being at a really small portion of his power and yet displaying an aura.

Or simply put Base Goten far above Android 18 and chalk up their inability in beating her due to the lack of coordination in using their legs (since Goten was incapable of fighting back) and the suit drastically hindering their speed.

I simple cannot. I'm ok with base Goten = 18, but base Goten >>> #18 is way too much imo. See RandomGuy's points on this thread:

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Shinden_no_Fukkatsu/topic/7870316/1/

Base Saiyans are implied to be leagues beyond Piccolo

When?

makes the idea that Base Saiyans > Piccolo much more acceptable as their SSJ power is far less bloated.

Well even with a 10x multiplier, Piccolo would still ending up 10x below the Boo arc SSJs, which is a serious downplay comsidering his feats at the Cell Game.

Super Saiyans being 5-10x than Kaioshin is much easier to grasp than them being over 50x stronger than Kaioshin if you followed the conventonal multiplier.

Well I have Kaioshin > base Saiyans nowadays. Not saying base Saiyans > Piccolo or > Kaioshin is impossible or anything, it's easily plausible considering some implications in the Boo arc, but it's really hard to show it numerically.