Goku's gap over Vegeta

[Diamond Ryan]

Referring to Kaioken makes the most sense, as otherwise I don't think there would be any reason for Freeza to go up as high as 50%.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Referring to Kaioken makes the most sense, as otherwise I don't think there would be any reason for Freeza to go up as high as 50%.

If he meant regular Goku, Goku's weird look wouldn't make much sense either since if 50% Freeza >>> Goku, Goku could just amp up-to 10x Kaio-Ken.

 

[sei'taer]

When go actually uses the kaioken is pretty inconsistently shown in order to hide that goku was already using.

True, but I think he started using it some point mid-getting owned, since why would he rush at Freeza with a Kaio-Ken when he just called it a bluff?

Oh he's definitely using it when he's fighting 50% furiza, he knows it's not a bluff as soon as furiza attacks. What's not certain is whether he was already using it when fighting furiza with just his hands. I mean it certainly looks like he has a kaio-ken aura at points. But that would mean he was using lower levels of kaio-ken or he was holding back power while using kaio ken. I mean I'm certainly open to the idea that furiza (or at least the author) was referring to kaio-ken, but it wouldn't change much if goku was holding actual power back.

Still as for the original topic, goku's gap on vegeta is pretty obscene or at least has to be. Vegeta couldn't even track furiza's speed when he was at the same level he started the fight with goku. Yet goku and furiza were both just warming up. The only way that gap isn't fairly large is if goku was using kaio-ken from the very very beginning.

50% furiza > Kaio-ken x 20 goku > kaio-ken x 10 goku > post warm up furiza > full power goku > warm up furiza ~ warm up goku >>> vegata post zenkai

or

50% furiza > Kaio-ken x 20 goku > kaio-ken x 10 goku > full power goku > post warm up furiza > warm up furiza ~ warm up goku >>> vegeta post zenkai

 

[sei'taer]

Referring to Kaioken makes the most sense, as otherwise I don't think there would be any reason for Freeza to go up as high as 50%.

Well he can't sense chi. Even if he knew goku was holding back some power I doubt he'd have figured it'd be 20x what goku was showing. 50% seems like it was just an arbitrary increase.

 

[Papasmurf]

Chapter: 310 (DBZ 116), P14.1-2
Context: after fighting with Goku for some time
Freeza: “I’m starting to feel like that’s enough warming up…”
Goku: “Me too”.

Then proceeds to take off his weights and still fights without the Kaioken.

Goku never wore weights when fighting Freeza. He merely took off his outer shirt, which wasn't weighted in the first place.

 

[sei'taer]

Then again ginyu notices goku was holding back the kaio-ken as well despite not knowing about it. So there is precedence for furiza to be referring to kaio-ken.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

And as every one else has said about the weighted clothes

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.5
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Yamcha: “Lord Kaio! Goku’s wearing that heavy dougi, right!?”
Kaio: “No…what he’s wearing now is merely durable, and not heavy…”

 

[Papasmurf]

Well Ginyu estimated Goku's power would rise to 85,000 which was about his base level of 90,000, so Goku was holding back in that case Kaiokn or not

 

[sei'taer]

Well Ginyu estimated Goku's power would rise to 85,000 which was about his base level of 90,000, so Goku was holding back in that case Kaiokn or not

Only if ginyu was 100% correct without a scouter or the ability to sense chi. It seems like this was more of showing how good ginyu's estimation was. I doubt he'd make that much of a deal of 5,000 and refer to it as hiding "even greater power".

 

[Fantastische Hure]

When go actually uses the kaioken is pretty inconsistently shown in order to hide that goku was already using.

True, but I think he started using it some point mid-getting owned, since why would he rush at Freeza with a Kaio-Ken when he just called it a bluff?

Oh he's definitely using it when he's fighting 50% furiza, he knows it's not a bluff as soon as furiza attacks. What's not certain is whether he was already using it when fighting furiza with just his hands. I mean it certainly looks like he has a kaio-ken aura at points. But that would mean he was using lower levels of kaio-ken or he was holding back power while using kaio ken. I mean I'm certainly open to the idea that furiza (or at least the author) was referring to kaio-ken, but it wouldn't change much if goku was holding actual power back.

Still as for the original topic, goku's gap on vegeta is pretty obscene or at least has to be. Vegeta couldn't even track furiza's speed when he was at the same level he started the fight with goku. Yet goku and furiza were both just warming up. The only way that gap isn't fairly large is if goku was using kaio-ken from the very very beginning.

50% furiza > Kaio-ken x 20 goku > kaio-ken x 10 goku > post warm up furiza > full power goku > warm up furiza ~ warm up goku >>> vegata post zenkai

or

50% furiza > Kaio-ken x 20 goku > kaio-ken x 10 goku > full power goku > post warm up furiza > warm up furiza ~ warm up goku >>> vegeta post zenkai

Freeza also kicked Vegeta's most powerful attack.

 

[Void]

I've always been of the unpopular opinion that Goku used the Kaio-Ken against no hands Freeza.

 

[sei'taer]

Freeza also kicked Vegeta's most powerful attack.

That too, I just think the speed feats are the more impressive. But the point remains they're both much stronger than vegeta warming up.

I've always been of the unpopular opinion that Goku used the Kaio-Ken against no hands Freeza.

It may be unpopular now, but it's certainly still valid given the way the kaio-ken is handled during that fight. What's popular opinion is pretty damn fickle in the db community.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'm not sure. Didn't the full-coloured manga version disprove that? I thought I remembered something like that.

 

[Papasmurf]

yah the colored manga and the anime version of that scene give Goku a regular flight aura while it's colored red when he uses the x10 and x20 Kaioken later

 

[Papasmurf]

Well Ginyu estimated Goku's power would rise to 85,000 which was about his base level of 90,000, so Goku was holding back in that case Kaiokn or not

Only if ginyu was 100% correct without a scouter or the ability to sense chi. It seems like this was more of showing how good ginyu's estimation was. I doubt he'd make that much of a deal of 5,000 and refer to it as hiding "even greater power".

I'm not talking about the mere 5,000 difference. Ginyu originally estimated Goku's power to be 60,000, recants and says he's even better than that, and when he demands for Goku to go all-out he says he won't even need to look at the Scouter and that he estimates it'll go up to 85,000 or so and that he's been sensing for a while that Goku's saving up strength for his fight with Freeza.

So what Goku was exerting was above 60,000, but a good deal below the 85k range that Ginyu supposed his power would go up to.

 

[Void]

I haven't seen that part colored, so if it's not Kaio Ken I'm definitely going to change some things around.

 

[ahill1]

The full colors manga has Goku merely using a flight aura in his fight against non hands Freeza:

He only has the Kaioken aura when fighting 50% Freeza, which is illustrated quite differently:

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Was that before Kaio revealed Goku was using kaioken?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It was before Kaio's statement.

 

[sei'taer]

Well Ginyu estimated Goku's power would rise to 85,000 which was about his base level of 90,000, so Goku was holding back in that case Kaiokn or not

Only if ginyu was 100% correct without a scouter or the ability to sense chi. It seems like this was more of showing how good ginyu's estimation was. I doubt he'd make that much of a deal of 5,000 and refer to it as hiding "even greater power".

I'm not talking about the mere 5,000 difference. Ginyu originally estimated Goku's power to be 60,000, recants and says he's even better than that, and when he demands for Goku to go all-out he says he won't even need to look at the Scouter and that he estimates it'll go up to 85,000 or so and that he's been sensing for a while that Goku's saving up strength for his fight with Freeza.

So what Goku was exerting was above 60,000, but a good deal below the 85k range that Ginyu supposed his power would go up to.

Since I lost the whole post due to my internet glitch. I'll just say this is what I meant by memory issues. I remember what happens but not always the order. The color panel really clinches this though. Goku didn't use the kaio-ken until furiza went to 50%.

 

[ahill1]

So Goku didn't use his full power base initially against Freeza, only when Freeza went "non hands", right?