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Nappa's Power Level:
SSJ Goku vs Freeza breakdown
Why MSSJ's power boost = SSJ power boost
Why Gohan was SSJ against Dabura
Why SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku
Freeza > Base Saiyans, debunked
Nappa's Power Level:
First of all, all the struggle Nappa had against the Z Fighters mean jack. Vegeta's statement about him not being able to control his Battle Power doesn't mean he can't change his Ki output. Here, take some examples:
They are clearly putting more Ki, even though they are not changing their Battle Powers. Damn, Piccolo literally ony notices Vegeta is the stronger of the duo when he yells at Nappa, implying he wasn't sensing a Ki any different from Nappa's, despite Vegeta being not able to suppress at point:
That said, let's analyze only from the part Nappa went all out. First, Goku completely makes a fool of Nappa and Vegeta says Nappa can win if he stops being a douche:
Then, Nappa chills and proceeds to fight with Goku:
You can see Goku needed to dodge Nappa's blast and had to put effort while exchanging blows, he clearly cannot tool Nappa like he did earlier, he evens says he's fighting much better now. And no, he was not mocking Nappa. Stop making shit up.
Furthermore, he says Nappa's blast was a threat to him on the original dialogue:
That said, let's analyze only from the part Nappa went all out. First, Goku completely makes a fool of Nappa and Vegeta says Nappa can win if he stops being a douche:
Then, Nappa chills and proceeds to fight with Goku:
Furthermore, he says Nappa's blast was a threat to him on the original dialogue:
Also both Goku and Vegeta thinks it will take forever for the fight reach an end. And no, this is not about durability. Recoome also was durable as fuck and Ginyu thought Goku only need to be 1.5-1.66x stronger than him to one shot him like that, so no amount of durability can save you from someone 2x stronger, let alone close the gap to a even fight.
SSJ Goku vs Freeza breakdown
This is my analysis of SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza fight. Was the fight one-sided like Daizenshuu supporters claim to be? Ignoring Freeza's first assault that is said to be only a warm up, you can check the whole fight here:
~ Freeza flies above Goku and kiais him, creating a distraction. Freeza tries to punch Goku from behind, Goku grabs his arm, headbutts him and breaks his hand before launching him away.
~ Goku fires a Kamehameha and Freeza charges to it with his barrier. Both are on a complete stalemate until Freeza flies to the side and knocks Goku to the ocean
~ Goku emerges with only comsetic damage. Both notice Porunga and Freeza dashes after him, followed by a Goku who couldn't outspeed him, something he'd be able to do with a stomping gap.
~ After the whole Dragon issue, both land to end the fight. Freeza elbows Goku and Goku knees Freeza.
~ Goku dodges a punch and nails Freeza on the guts.
~ Freeza counterattacks with a chop and a kick.
~ Goku returns with a kick, which Freeza dodges but gets hit by another kick.
~ Goku trashes Freeza a bit and quits claiming Freeza's stamina is gone. It's pretty much the end of the fight.
Total hits from Goku: 8
Total hits from Freeza: 5
One important fight about the fight is that nowhere Goku was appearing to be taking the fight lightly. He has a serious look on his face during the whole fight. During their beam struggle both were screaming from the top of their lungs and with their faces about to explode. He was unable to outspeed Freeza when he really needed. Even when Freeza's stamina started to slack he still needed to put effort and Freeza was still able to fight back. Goku said both he and Freeza should fight all out from the begining, so no reason for him radomly hold back here:
He also wanted to completely humiliate Freeza and was in a planet about to explode, so it'd be completely stupid from him to be like "Hey Freeza, this whole fight i was using only 80% of my power. It must suck to be you now" *Namek explodes*
Goku even said if Freeza wanted to fight him again, he should only polish his stamina and skills. No trouble about Freeza's power at all.
The whole fight heavily implies Goku and Freeza were close rivals, completely contradicting the Daizenshuu numbers.
~ Freeza flies above Goku and kiais him, creating a distraction. Freeza tries to punch Goku from behind, Goku grabs his arm, headbutts him and breaks his hand before launching him away.
~ Goku fires a Kamehameha and Freeza charges to it with his barrier. Both are on a complete stalemate until Freeza flies to the side and knocks Goku to the ocean
~ Goku emerges with only comsetic damage. Both notice Porunga and Freeza dashes after him, followed by a Goku who couldn't outspeed him, something he'd be able to do with a stomping gap.
~ After the whole Dragon issue, both land to end the fight. Freeza elbows Goku and Goku knees Freeza.
~ Goku dodges a punch and nails Freeza on the guts.
~ Freeza counterattacks with a chop and a kick.
~ Goku returns with a kick, which Freeza dodges but gets hit by another kick.
~ Goku trashes Freeza a bit and quits claiming Freeza's stamina is gone. It's pretty much the end of the fight.
Total hits from Goku: 8
Total hits from Freeza: 5
One important fight about the fight is that nowhere Goku was appearing to be taking the fight lightly. He has a serious look on his face during the whole fight. During their beam struggle both were screaming from the top of their lungs and with their faces about to explode. He was unable to outspeed Freeza when he really needed. Even when Freeza's stamina started to slack he still needed to put effort and Freeza was still able to fight back. Goku said both he and Freeza should fight all out from the begining, so no reason for him radomly hold back here:
He also wanted to completely humiliate Freeza and was in a planet about to explode, so it'd be completely stupid from him to be like "Hey Freeza, this whole fight i was using only 80% of my power. It must suck to be you now" *Namek explodes*
Goku even said if Freeza wanted to fight him again, he should only polish his stamina and skills. No trouble about Freeza's power at all.
The whole fight heavily implies Goku and Freeza were close rivals, completely contradicting the Daizenshuu numbers.
Why MSSJ's power boost = SSJ power boost
@Voice_of_Reason
From the page he dismisses the Grades in favor of the regular Super Saiyan, it doesn't seem like he thinks he can make Super Saiyan boost stronger.
He mentions how huge the raw power is, but says the stamina and speed kills it and that it's better to use regular Super Saiyan. It's still better to focus on a less strainful form even if it's not as strong, since its lack of strain allows you to get rested quicker from training.
Not to mention Goku far outstripping Vegeta seems more a matter of training method than just having a better transformation. He considers his method of training and relaxing better than Vegeta's train until you colapse method:
Enhanced stamina Super Saiyan + Training smart >>> Forced power up + Phyisical training.
Toriyama even states in some interview that there's a point physical strength hits a wall and can only be improved via Ki improvement. According to SEG, Goku's train on Rosat was focused on Ki, whereas Vegeta's overall trains consists of gravity and torturing his body. It's only natural Goku's improvements wold be leaps and bounds above Vegeta's.
From the page he dismisses the Grades in favor of the regular Super Saiyan, it doesn't seem like he thinks he can make Super Saiyan boost stronger.
He mentions how huge the raw power is, but says the stamina and speed kills it and that it's better to use regular Super Saiyan. It's still better to focus on a less strainful form even if it's not as strong, since its lack of strain allows you to get rested quicker from training.
Not to mention Goku far outstripping Vegeta seems more a matter of training method than just having a better transformation. He considers his method of training and relaxing better than Vegeta's train until you colapse method:
Enhanced stamina Super Saiyan + Training smart >>> Forced power up + Phyisical training.
Toriyama even states in some interview that there's a point physical strength hits a wall and can only be improved via Ki improvement. According to SEG, Goku's train on Rosat was focused on Ki, whereas Vegeta's overall trains consists of gravity and torturing his body. It's only natural Goku's improvements wold be leaps and bounds above Vegeta's.
Why Gohan was SSJ against Dabura
Althought there are really good points for both sides, Gohan is clearly portrayed as a SSJ against Dabura. Look at the difference between both forms right here:
Even during the Budokai, Gohan showed both forms and there was a clear distinction between them:
Now, take a look on Gohan at Dabura:
Calm aura, zero sparks, no lined eyes... Definitely drawed as a SSJ. He has a SSJ2 hair, but he showed the same spiky hair at the Budokai and he only showed a shorter hair during his training a month earlier, his hair just grew up. Some are going to chalk up to Majin Vegeta having calm aura and no sparks, but there was only for a few pannels, while Gohan appeared for about 7 chapters and not even once he had the details. The full color manga also lacks on giving Gohan a yellow SSJ2 aura, while SSJ2s in general have it all the time:
SSJ2s
SSJ2 Gohan?
Dragon Ball is a comic book. The artwork is just as important as the plot and the plot is at it's peak on inconsistence, like on all the conflicting evidence about Gohan being or not a SSJ2 on the shitty writing trought the Arc, so the artwork is definitely more trustable here. If it was Gohan's intention to have Gohan as a SSJ2 he'd draw him as one, instead he draw him with the traits of a SSJ.
Take Saiyan Arc Goku for an example. Although he flew the Snake Road in a day, he decided to use his Kintoun/Nimbus to fly to the battlefield, even though it's speed was comparable to Weighted Piccolo a year earlier. Sounds stupid for Goku? Hell yeah, but it was Mr Toriyama's intention to draw Goku on his cloud, and nobody is arguing Goku was flying by himself because it makes most sense. Gohan's power at Dabura is the same case.
Even during the Budokai, Gohan showed both forms and there was a clear distinction between them:
Now, take a look on Gohan at Dabura:
Calm aura, zero sparks, no lined eyes... Definitely drawed as a SSJ. He has a SSJ2 hair, but he showed the same spiky hair at the Budokai and he only showed a shorter hair during his training a month earlier, his hair just grew up. Some are going to chalk up to Majin Vegeta having calm aura and no sparks, but there was only for a few pannels, while Gohan appeared for about 7 chapters and not even once he had the details. The full color manga also lacks on giving Gohan a yellow SSJ2 aura, while SSJ2s in general have it all the time:
SSJ2s
SSJ2 Gohan?
Dragon Ball is a comic book. The artwork is just as important as the plot and the plot is at it's peak on inconsistence, like on all the conflicting evidence about Gohan being or not a SSJ2 on the shitty writing trought the Arc, so the artwork is definitely more trustable here. If it was Gohan's intention to have Gohan as a SSJ2 he'd draw him as one, instead he draw him with the traits of a SSJ.
Take Saiyan Arc Goku for an example. Although he flew the Snake Road in a day, he decided to use his Kintoun/Nimbus to fly to the battlefield, even though it's speed was comparable to Weighted Piccolo a year earlier. Sounds stupid for Goku? Hell yeah, but it was Mr Toriyama's intention to draw Goku on his cloud, and nobody is arguing Goku was flying by himself because it makes most sense. Gohan's power at Dabura is the same case.
Why SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku
It's stated multiplie times by Goku that Gotenks will be stronger than him:
We have no reason to think he's wrong. Why Toriyama would put those quotes if they are supposed to be interpreted otherwise? Why the reader should know more about fusion than Goku and say he was wrong?
Furthermore, Goten and Trunks try the fusion for the first time, and Piccolo says this:
He instantly notices Base Gotenks is no match for Fat Buu. However, look at his comment on SSjin Gotenks:
Key word here: Really. Piccolo had expectations for Gotenks and confirms he's really incredible, and only questions his speed. This doesn't make any sense if the outcome was weaker than e.g. Majin Vegeta. And after SSjin Gotenks takes off to fight Buu, Piccolo states this:
Piccolo is worried Gotenks will defuse before he can take on Buu, but never once states power is a factor against him. Gotenks stating he can take on Buu now doesn't hold much weight as we know he's pretty cocky, but it's important to note he was never contradicted.
To end it, Piccolo had an entire day between SSjin Gotenks's test and Super Buu transformation but he never took the kids to the Rosat, and never mentions it either. We know for a fact someone like Piccolo wouldn't procrastinate, much less on such a serious situation. And when Piccolo says the kids will go to Rosat because of Super Buu, Kuririn says this:
Kuririn is shocked Gotenks can't beat Super Buu and says the fusion was the strongest, what's completely nonsense if he sensed Gotenks and knows he can't even beat Majin Vegeta.
/Thread.
We have no reason to think he's wrong. Why Toriyama would put those quotes if they are supposed to be interpreted otherwise? Why the reader should know more about fusion than Goku and say he was wrong?
Furthermore, Goten and Trunks try the fusion for the first time, and Piccolo says this:
He instantly notices Base Gotenks is no match for Fat Buu. However, look at his comment on SSjin Gotenks:
Key word here: Really. Piccolo had expectations for Gotenks and confirms he's really incredible, and only questions his speed. This doesn't make any sense if the outcome was weaker than e.g. Majin Vegeta. And after SSjin Gotenks takes off to fight Buu, Piccolo states this:
Piccolo is worried Gotenks will defuse before he can take on Buu, but never once states power is a factor against him. Gotenks stating he can take on Buu now doesn't hold much weight as we know he's pretty cocky, but it's important to note he was never contradicted.
To end it, Piccolo had an entire day between SSjin Gotenks's test and Super Buu transformation but he never took the kids to the Rosat, and never mentions it either. We know for a fact someone like Piccolo wouldn't procrastinate, much less on such a serious situation. And when Piccolo says the kids will go to Rosat because of Super Buu, Kuririn says this:
Kuririn is shocked Gotenks can't beat Super Buu and says the fusion was the strongest, what's completely nonsense if he sensed Gotenks and knows he can't even beat Majin Vegeta.
/Thread.
Freeza > Base Saiyans, debunked
Before taking on Beerus' statement, let's see some reason for Base > Freeza back in Z:
1) Vegeta's confidence at the Budokai:
The most used counter for this is that Vegeta was being cocky and would turn SSJ if he needed to. The thing is: Vegeta was never contradicted. Why would Toriyama write this if the reader is supposed to think otherwise? If the reader has such power, i can just say Beerus was lying as well only because i disagree. Everytime Vegeta was cocky he was contradicted, like when he called himself the strongest in the universe before getting pummeled by Freeza. What is the counter for Vegeta here? A quote from a movie 20 years later that wasn't even supposed to happen?
Another argument is that this would mean Base Vegeta > Piccolo, what's impossible due to CG Piccolo fighting against the Cell Jrs. But Piccolo wasn't around when Vegeta made his statement, so Vegeta shouldn't be aware of him entering the Budokai:
Piccolo is nowhere close to be seem here.
2) Kaioshin and the Saiyans:
3) Base Kids vs 18
You can see their fight here:
As you can see here, Trunks managed to hold his own pretty well against 18 when you consider he was wearing a clown suit and had Goten slowing him down. He even states it was the suit holding them back:
And to close this part with some direct evidence, we have this statement of Trunks' bio on the Daizenshuu 7:
Now, let's analyze the only evidence for Freeza > Base Saiyans: A statement from 20 years after the series ended on a movie/serie that wasn't even supposed to happen:
1) Vegeta's confidence at the Budokai:
Vegeta is ok with Gohan's rule about the no SSJ, grouping the saiyans together and saying he has the upperhand. Unless he's considering Kuririn when he says "the conditions are the same", he's refering only to the saiyans and is excluding 18, implying she's no more than a trouble than Kuririn.
The most used counter for this is that Vegeta was being cocky and would turn SSJ if he needed to. The thing is: Vegeta was never contradicted. Why would Toriyama write this if the reader is supposed to think otherwise? If the reader has such power, i can just say Beerus was lying as well only because i disagree. Everytime Vegeta was cocky he was contradicted, like when he called himself the strongest in the universe before getting pummeled by Freeza. What is the counter for Vegeta here? A quote from a movie 20 years later that wasn't even supposed to happen?
Another argument is that this would mean Base Vegeta > Piccolo, what's impossible due to CG Piccolo fighting against the Cell Jrs. But Piccolo wasn't around when Vegeta made his statement, so Vegeta shouldn't be aware of him entering the Budokai:
Piccolo is nowhere close to be seem here.
2) Kaioshin and the Saiyans:
Kaioshin thinks nothing of Freeza and says he can one shot him. However, he thinks he can't beat Goku at all:
It's not clear if he's refering to Base Goku or his estimatives for SSJ Goku, but later he is completely amazed by how Vegeta effortlessy took out Pocus:
Base Saiyans >>> Estimated SSJs >> Kaioshin. Shin suggesting team up against Yakon and Babidi's confidence on Pocus wiping out the Saiyans in front of Shin back this up, but can be countered by saying Shin was overstimating Babidi's minions. However, he never once doubts the strength of his foes, he only praizes the saiyans, implying he already knew how strong they were. I've never seen any concrect counter for the Base >> Estimated SSJs >> Shin chain, so let's move to 3:
3) Base Kids vs 18
You can see their fight here:
The counter for this is that 18 was holding back. But if she was, why don't she just power up and one shot them like she did with Jewel? She should be able to tell how strong they are after some sparring, after all. Back on the Android Arc 17 was able to go trought SSJ Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan without killing any of them, and only by seeing their movements.
And to close this part with some direct evidence, we have this statement of Trunks' bio on the Daizenshuu 7:
Now, let's analyze the only evidence for Freeza > Base Saiyans: A statement from 20 years after the series ended on a movie/serie that wasn't even supposed to happen:
A contradiction right? No. Earlier, Beerus has seem Goku fighting Freeza as a SSJ on Whis' ball, but now he's seeing the same man with a drastically different appearance, so he should suspect something was off. He even asks if Goku can transform, he seems to be taunting Goku to turn into the SSJ, expecting to see the Super Saiyan God he's looking for.
