GreatSaiyaman's Power Guide

GSM123

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Nappa's Power Level:
First of all, all the struggle Nappa had against the Z Fighters mean jack. Vegeta's statement about him not being able to control his Battle Power doesn't mean he can't change his Ki output. Here, take some examples:
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They are clearly putting more Ki, even though they are not changing their Battle Powers. Damn, Piccolo literally ony notices Vegeta is the stronger of the duo when he yells at Nappa, implying he wasn't sensing a Ki any different from Nappa's, despite Vegeta being not able to suppress at point:
Chapter: 219 (DBZ 25), P12.5
Context: after Vegeta orders Nappa to stop and Nappa instantly complies
Piccolo: “The way the big one cowered…that must mean that the little one is even more powerful. It’s hopeless!”

That said, let's analyze only from the part Nappa went all out. First, Goku completely makes a fool of Nappa and Vegeta says Nappa can win if he stops being a douche:
Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2
Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”

Then, Nappa chills and proceeds to fight with Goku:
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You can see Goku needed to dodge Nappa's blast and had to put effort while exchanging blows, he clearly cannot tool Nappa like he did earlier, he evens says he's fighting much better now. And no, he was not mocking Nappa. Stop making shit up.
Furthermore, he says Nappa's blast was a threat to him on the original dialogue:
Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”
Also both Goku and Vegeta thinks it will take forever for the fight reach an end. And no, this is not about durability. Recoome also was durable as fuck and Ginyu thought Goku only need to be 1.5-1.66x stronger than him to one shot him like that, so no amount of durability can save you from someone 2x stronger, let alone close the gap to a even fight.


SSJ Goku vs Freeza breakdown
This is my analysis of SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza fight. Was the fight one-sided like Daizenshuu supporters claim to be? Ignoring Freeza's first assault that is said to be only a warm up, you can check the whole fight here:

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~ Freeza flies above Goku and kiais him, creating a distraction. Freeza tries to punch Goku from behind, Goku grabs his arm, headbutts him and breaks his hand before launching him away.
~ Goku fires a Kamehameha and Freeza charges to it with his barrier. Both are on a complete stalemate until Freeza flies to the side and knocks Goku to the ocean
~ Goku emerges with only comsetic damage. Both notice Porunga and Freeza dashes after him, followed by a Goku who couldn't outspeed him, something he'd be able to do with a stomping gap.
~ After the whole Dragon issue, both land to end the fight. Freeza elbows Goku and Goku knees Freeza.
~ Goku dodges a punch and nails Freeza on the guts.
~ Freeza counterattacks with a chop and a kick.
~ Goku returns with a kick, which Freeza dodges but gets hit by another kick.
~ Goku trashes Freeza a bit and quits claiming Freeza's stamina is gone. It's pretty much the end of the fight.
Total hits from Goku: 8
Total hits from Freeza: 5

One important fight about the fight is that nowhere Goku was appearing to be taking the fight lightly. He has a serious look on his face during the whole fight. During their beam struggle both were screaming from the top of their lungs and with their faces about to explode. He was unable to outspeed Freeza when he really needed. Even when Freeza's stamina started to slack he still needed to put effort and Freeza was still able to fight back. Goku said both he and Freeza should fight all out from the begining, so no reason for him radomly hold back here:
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”

He also wanted to completely humiliate Freeza and was in a planet about to explode, so it'd be completely stupid from him to be like "Hey Freeza, this whole fight i was using only 80% of my power. It must suck to be you now" *Namek explodes*
Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Goku even said if Freeza wanted to fight him again, he should only polish his stamina and skills. No trouble about Freeza's power at all.
Chapter 326 (DBZ 132), P4.2
Context: after Goku dodges his homing blast
Goku: “Like I thought, I don’t have any desire to fight you as you are now…With you pinning your hopes on a worthless technique like that…If you really want to settle the score with me, recover your stamina and polish your skills.”

The whole fight heavily implies Goku and Freeza were close rivals, completely contradicting the Daizenshuu numbers.


Why MSSJ's power boost = SSJ power boost
@Voice_of_Reason

From the page he dismisses the Grades in favor of the regular Super Saiyan, it doesn't seem like he thinks he can make Super Saiyan boost stronger.
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He mentions how huge the raw power is, but says the stamina and speed kills it and that it's better to use regular Super Saiyan. It's still better to focus on a less strainful form even if it's not as strong, since its lack of strain allows you to get rested quicker from training.

Not to mention Goku far outstripping Vegeta seems more a matter of training method than just having a better transformation. He considers his method of training and relaxing better than Vegeta's train until you colapse method:
fd4a1087fc04a8ad24e9284a4f0716a1.jpg


Enhanced stamina Super Saiyan + Training smart >>> Forced power up + Phyisical training.

Toriyama even states in some interview that there's a point physical strength hits a wall and can only be improved via Ki improvement. According to SEG, Goku's train on Rosat was focused on Ki, whereas Vegeta's overall trains consists of gravity and torturing his body. It's only natural Goku's improvements wold be leaps and bounds above Vegeta's.


Why Gohan was SSJ against Dabura
Althought there are really good points for both sides, Gohan is clearly portrayed as a SSJ against Dabura. Look at the difference between both forms right here:
Goku_SSj2_Differences.jpg


Even during the Budokai, Gohan showed both forms and there was a clear distinction between them:
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Now, take a look on Gohan at Dabura:
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Calm aura, zero sparks, no lined eyes... Definitely drawed as a SSJ. He has a SSJ2 hair, but he showed the same spiky hair at the Budokai and he only showed a shorter hair during his training a month earlier, his hair just grew up. Some are going to chalk up to Majin Vegeta having calm aura and no sparks, but there was only for a few pannels, while Gohan appeared for about 7 chapters and not even once he had the details. The full color manga also lacks on giving Gohan a yellow SSJ2 aura, while SSJ2s in general have it all the time:
SSJ2s
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SSJ2 Gohan?
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Dragon Ball is a comic book. The artwork is just as important as the plot and the plot is at it's peak on inconsistence, like on all the conflicting evidence about Gohan being or not a SSJ2 on the shitty writing trought the Arc, so the artwork is definitely more trustable here. If it was Gohan's intention to have Gohan as a SSJ2 he'd draw him as one, instead he draw him with the traits of a SSJ.
Take Saiyan Arc Goku for an example. Although he flew the Snake Road in a day, he decided to use his Kintoun/Nimbus to fly to the battlefield, even though it's speed was comparable to Weighted Piccolo a year earlier. Sounds stupid for Goku? Hell yeah, but it was Mr Toriyama's intention to draw Goku on his cloud, and nobody is arguing Goku was flying by himself because it makes most sense. Gohan's power at Dabura is the same case.


Why SSJ Gotenks Pre > SSJ3 Goku
It's stated multiplie times by Goku that Gotenks will be stronger than him:
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…

We have no reason to think he's wrong. Why Toriyama would put those quotes if they are supposed to be interpreted otherwise? Why the reader should know more about fusion than Goku and say he was wrong?
Furthermore, Goten and Trunks try the fusion for the first time, and Piccolo says this:
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!

He instantly notices Base Gotenks is no match for Fat Buu. However, look at his comment on SSjin Gotenks:
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Key word here: Really. Piccolo had expectations for Gotenks and confirms he's really incredible, and only questions his speed. This doesn't make any sense if the outcome was weaker than e.g. Majin Vegeta. And after SSjin Gotenks takes off to fight Buu, Piccolo states this:

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

Piccolo is worried Gotenks will defuse before he can take on Buu, but never once states power is a factor against him. Gotenks stating he can take on Buu now doesn't hold much weight as we know he's pretty cocky, but it's important to note he was never contradicted.

To end it, Piccolo had an entire day between SSjin Gotenks's test and Super Buu transformation but he never took the kids to the Rosat, and never mentions it either. We know for a fact someone like Piccolo wouldn't procrastinate, much less on such a serious situation. And when Piccolo says the kids will go to Rosat because of Super Buu, Kuririn says this:
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!
Dende: “…”

Kuririn is shocked Gotenks can't beat Super Buu and says the fusion was the strongest, what's completely nonsense if he sensed Gotenks and knows he can't even beat Majin Vegeta.

/Thread.


Freeza > Base Saiyans, debunked
Before taking on Beerus' statement, let's see some reason for Base > Freeza back in Z:

1) Vegeta's confidence at the Budokai:
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…
Vegeta is ok with Gohan's rule about the no SSJ, grouping the saiyans together and saying he has the upperhand. Unless he's considering Kuririn when he says "the conditions are the same", he's refering only to the saiyans and is excluding 18, implying she's no more than a trouble than Kuririn.

The most used counter for this is that Vegeta was being cocky and would turn SSJ if he needed to. The thing is: Vegeta was never contradicted. Why would Toriyama write this if the reader is supposed to think otherwise? If the reader has such power, i can just say Beerus was lying as well only because i disagree. Everytime Vegeta was cocky he was contradicted, like when he called himself the strongest in the universe before getting pummeled by Freeza. What is the counter for Vegeta here? A quote from a movie 20 years later that wasn't even supposed to happen?

Another argument is that this would mean Base Vegeta > Piccolo, what's impossible due to CG Piccolo fighting against the Cell Jrs. But Piccolo wasn't around when Vegeta made his statement, so Vegeta shouldn't be aware of him entering the Budokai:
SngLZFgAR663dQ5jOI_JRw.png

Piccolo is nowhere close to be seem here.

2) Kaioshin and the Saiyans:
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
Kaioshin thinks nothing of Freeza and says he can one shot him. However, he thinks he can't beat Goku at all:
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”
It's not clear if he's refering to Base Goku or his estimatives for SSJ Goku, but later he is completely amazed by how Vegeta effortlessy took out Pocus:
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”
Base Saiyans >>> Estimated SSJs >> Kaioshin. Shin suggesting team up against Yakon and Babidi's confidence on Pocus wiping out the Saiyans in front of Shin back this up, but can be countered by saying Shin was overstimating Babidi's minions. However, he never once doubts the strength of his foes, he only praizes the saiyans, implying he already knew how strong they were. I've never seen any concrect counter for the Base >> Estimated SSJs >> Shin chain, so let's move to 3:

3) Base Kids vs 18
You can see their fight here:
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As you can see here, Trunks managed to hold his own pretty well against 18 when you consider he was wearing a clown suit and had Goten slowing him down. He even states it was the suit holding them back:
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
The counter for this is that 18 was holding back. But if she was, why don't she just power up and one shot them like she did with Jewel? She should be able to tell how strong they are after some sparring, after all. Back on the Android Arc 17 was able to go trought SSJ Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan without killing any of them, and only by seeing their movements.
And to close this part with some direct evidence, we have this statement of Trunks' bio on the Daizenshuu 7:
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Now, let's analyze the only evidence for Freeza > Base Saiyans: A statement from 20 years after the series ended on a movie/serie that wasn't even supposed to happen:
Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
A contradiction right? No. Earlier, Beerus has seem Goku fighting Freeza as a SSJ on Whis' ball, but now he's seeing the same man with a drastically different appearance, so he should suspect something was off. He even asks if Goku can transform, he seems to be taunting Goku to turn into the SSJ, expecting to see the Super Saiyan God he's looking for.
 

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I think AT himself had not decided yet whether to place Base Saiyans, so he left the issue open
on purpose before Super.
 

GSM123

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So guys, any critics, suggestions, anything? Damn, i'm looking forward to this.
 

ahill1

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I gave it a fast read and would like to add some things:


The counter for this is that 18 was holding back.
The "18 was holding back" bases itself on #18's reactions after them kids turned into a SSJ... she smiled and didn't show any concern until they fired that blast, and just then she realized she had to end the fight quickly (her reactions as well as statements somewhat imply ending it soon wasn't something she was thinking when they turned into a SSJ). If she was going all out and seeing how they could keep up with her full power in a costume that restricted their movements, shouldn't her be pretty worried upon seeing they increasing their strength a lot when turning into SSJs? Even if the simile was directed at the discovery of the boys' identity, she still shouldn't show such carefree behavior and just show concern upon seeing their chi blast demonstration if fucking base was already = her imo.
Tenshinhan explained us people don't fire Ki blasts when they are holding back, but against the kids 18 fired one, showing she was going all out to win.
And to back it up, we have this
Tenshinhan was talking specifically about the KMHMH, which isn't just a generic chi blast. At "not firing chi blasts while not at full power", Freeza firing a chi blast at Goku before even revealing his 50%, as well as Goku doing a KMHMH (even if an uncharged one) against Perfect Cell in their warm up comes to mind.


I also agree that base Saiyans (Boo saga) are > Freeza, I just don't think #18 has to be necessarily at full power.
 

GSM123

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ahill1 said:
The "18 was holding back" bases itself on #18's reactions after them kids turned into a SSJ... she smiled and didn't show any concern until they fired that blast, and just then she realized she had to end the fight quickly (her reactions as well as statements somewhat imply ending it soon wasn't something she was thinking when they turned into a SSJ). If she was going all out and seeing how they could keep up with her full power in a costume that restricted their movements, shouldn't her be pretty worried upon seeing they increasing their strength a lot when turning into SSJs? Even if the simile was directed at the discovery of the boys' identity, she still shouldn't show such carefree behavior and just show concern upon seeing their chi blast demonstration if fucking base was already = her imo.

Why can't she act carefree? Despite knowing their identity, she can be factoring the suit restricting their movements giving her the edge.

Tenshinhan was talking specifically about the KMHMH, which isn't just a generic chi blast. At "not firing chi blasts while not at full power", Freeza firing a chi blast at Goku before even revealing his 50%, as well as Goku doing a KMHMH (even if an uncharged one) against Perfect Cell in their warm up comes to mind.

Damn, good point. Still a bit odd for her to use a ki blast if she thinks Mighty is much weaker, though.

Any suggestions for more themes to add? Buu Arc is such a fertile camp for this type of posts.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
1) Vegeta's confidence at the Budokai:
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…
Vegeta is ok with Gohan's rule about the no SSJ, grouping the saiyans together and saying he has the upperhand. Unless he's considering Kuririn when he says "the conditions are the same", he's refering only to the saiyans and is excluding 18, implying she's no more than a trouble than Kuririn.

The most used counter for this is that Vegeta was being cocky and would turn SSJ if he needed to. The thing is: Vegeta was never contradicted. Why would Toriyama write this if the reader is supposed to think otherwise? If the reader has such power, i can just say Beerus was lying as well only because i disagree. Everytime Vegeta was cocky he was contradicted, like when he called himself the strongest in the universe before getting pummeled by Freeza. What is the counter for Vegeta here? A quote from a movie 20 years later that wasn't even supposed to happen?

Another argument is that this would mean Base Vegeta > Piccolo, what's impossible due to CG Piccolo fighting against the Cell Jrs. But Piccolo wasn't around when Vegeta made his statement, so Vegeta shouldn't be aware of him entering the Budokai:
SngLZFgAR663dQ5jOI_JRw.png

Piccolo is nowhere close to be seem here.

Piccolo is the reason why Vegeta/Gohan statement doesn't work since Piccolo is not an ordinary weakling in the group that Base Saiyans can just beat, no Piccolo is one of the top dogs in Cell Games and even amazed Trunks by his gains from ROSAT which should be respected. Therefore Piccolo > Base Saiyans.

Your counter argument is that Vegeta made that statement where Piccolo wasn't there implying that he had no idea that Piccolo was entering the tournament? With Goku returning for a day and Vegeta was expecting for Piccolo not to show up? That doesn't work, brother.

What about after Vegeta learned that Piccolo was entering the tournament? Does Vegeta think that he can still take on Piccolo in his base form? If you think he does then you're in big trouble.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:
2) Kaioshin and the Saiyans:
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
Kaioshin thinks nothing of Freeza and says he can one shot him. However, he thinks he can't beat Goku at all:
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”
It's not clear if he's refering to Base Goku or his estimatives for SSJ Goku, but later he is completely amazed by how Vegeta effortlessy took out Pocus:
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”
Base Saiyans >>> Estimated SSJs >> Kaioshin. Shin suggesting team up against Yakon and Babidi's confidence on Pocus wiping out the Saiyans in front of Shin back this up, but can be countered by saying Shin was overstimating Babidi's minions. However, he never once doubts the strength of his foes, he only praizes the saiyans, implying he already knew how strong they were. I've never seen any concrect counter for the Base >> Estimated SSJs >> Shin chain, so let's move to 3:
Kaioshin is just a god and nothing more. He's just like Gotenks when both of them are all about hyped with dozens of statements and their feats exposed them as weakling.

GreatSaiyaman123 said:
3) Base Kids vs 18
You can see their fight here:
DB38_101-WaX4e.jpg

DB38_102-EkpI0.jpg

DB38_103-43wC3.jpg

DB38_104-Zcrjj.jpg

DB38_105-beVnP.jpg
As you can see here, Trunks managed to hold his own pretty well against 18 when you consider he was wearing a clown suit and had Goten slowing him down. He even states it was the suit holding them back:
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
The counter for this is that 18 was holding back. But if she was, why don't she just power up and one shot them like she did with Jewel? She should be able to tell how strong they are after some sparring, after all. Back on the Android Arc 17 was able to go trought SSJ Trunks, Piccolo and Tenshinhan without killing any of them, and only by seeing their movements.
Furthermore, we have this:
Chapter: 180, P1.3-4, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats Tenshinhan
Yamcha: “That was close…”
Tenshinhan: “No, it wasn’t…Frankly, his strength was on a different level…To think that he’s improved this much. What’s more, that bastard…it seems that he still hasn’t put out anywhere near his true ability. That’s right…he didn’t even fire a single Kamehameha…It hurts my pride…Just what the hell kind of training has he been doing?...”
Tenshinhan was able to tell Goku was holding back because he even fired a Kamehameha. But what this has to do with Kids vs 18? Simple: Tenshinhan explained us people don't fire Ki blasts when they are holding back, but against the kids 18 fired one, showing she was going all out to win.
And to back it up, we have this statement of Trunks' bio on the Daizenshuu 7:
_Erv3CehSpCU11SvSvIkfA.png


Now, let's analyze the only evidence for Freeza > Base Saiyans: A statement from 20 years after the series ended on a movie/serie that wasn't even supposed to happen:
Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”
A contradiction right? No. Earlier, Beerus has seem Goku fighting Freeza as a SSJ on Whis' ball, but now he's seeing the same man with a drastically different appearance, so he should suspect something was off. He even asks if Goku can transform, he seems to be taunting Goku to turn into the SSJ, expecting to see the Super Saiyan God he's looking for.
[/spoiler]

Then again, 18 was holding back and the kids were struggling from their costume so we can't come into the conclusion on this one.
 

GSM123

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1) Without Piccolo around how would Vegeta now he was going to show up? Vegeta's reaction to Piccolo showing up was never showed as well, so we can't tell if he changed his mind or not. If anything i'd take Vegeta > Piccolo over saying Vegeta was being cocky.

2) Agreed :sure

3) Er... I've explained on the post why 18 wasn't holding back :wtf :wtf
 

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Uptade: 18's blast part removed on Base > Freeza, Gohan's form at Dabura added.
 

Future Warrior

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Toriyama disagrees with you.

daiz1toriTM002.jpg

Calm aura, zero sparks, no lined eyes... Definitely drawed as a SSJ. He has a SSJ2 hair, but he showed the same spiky hair at the Budokai and he only showed a shorter hair during his training a month earlier, his hair just grew up. Some are going to chalk up to Majin Vegeta having calm aura and no sparks, but there was only for a few pannels, while Gohan appeared for about 7 chapters and not even once he had the details. The full color manga also lacks on giving Gohan a yellow SSJ2 aura, while SSJ2s in general have it all the time:

1zgjyd.png

Sorry... just included that for the lols.

Although he flew the Snake Road in a day, he decided to use his Kintoun/Nimbus to fly to the battlefield, even though it's speed was comparable to Weighted Piccolo a year earlier. Sounds stupid for Goku? Hell yeah, but it was Mr Toriyama's intention to draw Goku on his cloud, and nobody is arguing Goku was flying by himself because it makes most sense. Gohan's power at Dabura is the same case.

Goku had wasted a shit ton of stamina from flying in snake road, even to the point where he needed a senzu. Wasting as little energy as possible would only be the most sensible decision to make. You're only treating it as an inconsistency because you think it is an inconsistency.
 

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Future Warrior said:
Toriyama disagrees with you.

daiz1toriTM002.jpg

This is pretty much at odds with the story quality decreasing way more than the art's. This doesn't mean he's going to draw Gohan wrong for chapters while he's drawing Goku and Vegeta right for most of the time.

1zgjyd.png

Sorry... just included that for the lols.

I laughed pretty hard @this :alex2 :alex2 :alex2

Goku had wasted a shit ton of stamina from flying in snake road, even to the point where he needed a senzu. Wasting as little energy as possible would only be the most sensible decision to make. You're only treating it as an inconsistency because you think it is an inconsistency.

Nimbus' speed was compared to Weighted Piccolo a year ago, so even Goku at suppressed levels would be way faster than that and wouldn't waste much stamina.
There is also the inconsistence of Super Buu turning into Kid Buu. With Fat Buu removed he should have turned into Evil Buu, but he was drawed turning into Kid Buu instead, but nobody thinks he turned into Evil Buu and was just drawed wrong.
 

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Galu's stamina loss is irrelevant since he was fully healed and that was over a day of flying as opposed to simply going to meet the Saiyans (which the likes of Chaozu was able to accomplish). And like GS said, a weighted Piccolo who wasn't even 400 could fly as fast as the cloud while Goku was surprised fucking Vegeta could keep up with his flight speed or some shit. It's definitely dumb writing.
 

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
This is pretty much at odds with the story quality decreasing way more than the art's. This doesn't mean he's going to draw Gohan wrong for chapters while he's drawing Goku and Vegeta right for most of the time.

Toriyama said that the story > art though. If the story implies that Gohan was a SS2, but the art tells us that he was a SS1, then the form that Gohan used was a SS2 because the story has precedence over the art based off of the creator's words, no?

I laughed pretty hard @this :alex2 :alex2 :alex2

:king

Nimbus' speed was compared to Weighted Piccolo a year ago, so even Goku at suppressed levels would be way faster than that and wouldn't waste much stamina.
There is also the inconsistence of Super Buu turning into Kid Buu. With Fat Buu removed he should have turned into Evil Buu, but he was drawed turning into Kid Buu instead, but nobody thinks he turned into Evil Buu and was just drawed wrong.

The examples you provided are inconsistencies that contradict previously established lore. Dabra was portrayed as being above the SS1's based on his confidence in taking the three Saiyans on, and this level of power hasn't been contradicted at all. The evidence pointing towards SS2 is still supported throughout the story, and is only countered by the visuals of his aura which isn't shown to be 100% consistent on it's own. Once you actually find evidence implied by the story that Gohan was actually a SS1, then you'd have a solid argument.

If Vegeta wasn't shown to have any sparks after eating the senzu and fighting Boo, would people really doubt that he was anything other than a SS2? I doubt it.
 

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Future Warrior said:
The examples you provided are inconsistencies that contradict previously established lore. Dabra was portrayed as being above the SS1's based on his confidence in taking the three Saiyans on, and this level of power hasn't been contradicted at all. The evidence pointing towards SS2 is still supported throughout the story, and is only countered by the visuals of his aura which isn't shown to be 100% consistent on it's own. Once you actually find evidence implied by the story that Gohan was actually a SS1, then you'd have a solid argument.

If Vegeta wasn't shown to have any sparks after eating the senzu and fighting Boo, would people really doubt that he was anything other than a SS2? I doubt it.

Well, Dabura is contradicted when he thinks SSJ Majin Vegeta can take Goku and Vegeta at same time. The story have implications to point out Gohan was a SSJ as well, while the Art is pretty clear.

He still had a yellow aura in the full color manga, though.
SoquWii6SmC9cvKGde0OMw.png


Idea of Gaslight said:
Where did AT say story > art again?

Here

daiz1_tori.jpg
 

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Well, Dabura is contradicted when he thinks SSJ Majin Vegeta can take Goku and Vegeta at same time. The story have implications to point out Gohan was a SSJ as well, while the Art is pretty clear.

He's never even seen a transformed Vegeta fight though, so regardless of how strong Dabra is he can only assume Vegeta's strength.

He still had a yellow aura in the full color manga, though.

64ikgw.png
 

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AT simplifying the artwork = he doesn't care about the art? :ladd

He has Goku explain the differences between the forms with the appearances of all 3 forms shown back to back in one volume after Gohan's fights here. He makes the effort of keeping Majin Vegeta and Goku in their SSJ2 appearance in all but a few scattered panels and never once gives Gohan lightning or a stronger aura after the budokai.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. On top of that the dialogue often suggests Gohan is in a lesser form ("I can't get angry like I did back then," "Father and Vegeta must be fighting above the SSJ level and that's why it's causing such damage") and never openly cements usage of the SSJ2 form.
 

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Clearly yes, in the boo saga at least. Even you should know that.

SSJ2 = Rage boost? Since when was that implied in the story? If anything the opposite was. C'mon man!
 

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1683e2a6022e02a1d9fa7cbf56e31433.png


Or it is merely as the syntax implies, that he made the artwork simpler. Goku and Vegeta's heads are a third of their entire bodies in this panel and the Boo arc in general doesn't show as much effort to produce the detail the Freeza and Cell arcs showed.

But even in the midst of all this anyone else in the SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms show powerful auras, usually imbued with lightning. Gohan never shows it after the Budokai :idk
 

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Future Warrior said:
He's never even seen a transformed Vegeta fight though, so regardless of how strong Dabra is he can only assume Vegeta's strength.

He saw Goku and Vegeta transforming, why wouldn't he assume Vegeta can as well? Also, Dabura can be sensing Vegeta's latents powers as well, like he and Babidi did earlier to tell the Saiyans were > Piccolo.


SSJs always have this aura while powering up.
6r38kk.png


And i'd definitively say he was SSJ2 when he fired this Kamehameha if wasn't by the lack of sparks and Gohan saying he can't get angry a page ago. It was just the perfect moment for him to turn SSJ2 here.
 

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
He saw Goku and Vegeta transforming, why wouldn't he assume Vegeta can as well? Also, Dabura can be sensing Vegeta's latents powers as well, like he and Babidi did earlier to tell the Saiyans were > Piccolo.

Why not assume Vegeta can use SS2 levels of power?

SSJs always have this aura while powering up.
6r38kk.png


And i'd definitively say he was SSJ2 when he fired this Kamehameha if wasn't by the lack of sparks and Gohan saying he can't get angry a page ago. It was just the perfect moment for him to turn SSJ2 here.

I thought you were trying to imply only SS2 has the yellow aura.
 

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