GT Respect Thread

Captain Cadaver

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So, given some new revisions that have come to GT's standing recently, I thought it was worth making a comprehensive respect thread.

Part #1 - Why Continuity Matters

It goes without saying that GT follows the anime's continuity (beyond some elements of scaling in the Boo Arc) with such aspects as Paikuhan's existence or how Hell and its inhabitants are portrayed. Alongside that, it's established that at least some of the movies take place in GT's timeline (or at least Movie 5). This opens up the potential for it scaling from Movie 12, in which Goku's SS3 transformation shaking the universe-sized Otherworld was a Galaxy+ level feat: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Elizhaa/Goku_shakes_the_Afterlife_Redone
This part is pretty questionable, given Goku implied SS4 Gogeta would be the first time he and Vegeta fused in this continuity. Even so, we have comparable feats in Goku and Pure Boo's battle causing severe damage to the Kaioshinkai, which is 10% as large as Universe 7's macrocosm according to the SEG.

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On top of that, there's also Pure Boo attempting to destroy Dai Kaio's planet, one so large that it's visible from the universed-sized heaven.

Dai-Kaio’s Planet
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: The planet that the Dai-Kaio lives on. It can be seen in the skies above Heaven. (Daizenshuu 4, p.73)
Anime: It seems that Goku trained here after dieing in the battle with Cell. The super warriors who died in the battle with Majin Buu also trained on the Dai-Kaio Planet.

Heaven
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: The world where dead good people reside.
Events: Goku practiced for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai here. (Daizenshuu 4, p.73/ Daizenshuu 7, p.36)
Anime: Those sorted out as good people among the dead gather here. It is about as wide as the universe, and its entire surface is a field of flowers.

That said, even treating Movie 12 as not part of GT's continuity, anyone above Initial Anime Pure Boo's level ought to scale to Galaxy+ level at bare minimum, with Multi-Galaxy easily being on the table too.

By being in the anime continuity, almost all GT characters get scaling from Base Goku and Paikuhan going from Otherworld to Hell in enough time that the villains' rampage hadn't extended to great degrees, a feat of which has been calculated as over 4.38 quadrillion times' lightspeed based on the timeframe: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Elizhaa/Goku_and_Pikkon_Cross_the_Afterlife_(Redone)

Part #2 - Actually getting into GT, mainly Yi Xing Long (Universe level minimum)

With that introduction out of the way, it's time to turn to some feats accomplished in GT. With the M12 Goku feat already mentioned, it's worth GT reinforces this scaling in the Super #17 Arc (episode 43, to be exact) in which Base Goku powering up in Hell when fighting Freeza and Cell is enough to send tremors to Enma's palace.

Unfortunately, GT doesn't get much greater buffs beyond Multi-Galaxy level until reaching its top tiers. This is where things get interesting with Yi Xing Long's Minus Energy Power Ball and his explanation behind it:

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As most of us know, Elder Kaioshin made it apparent Yi Xing Long's minus energy would eventually go as far as to corrupt the Kaioshinkai after having already covered the mortal realm:

Episode 62
Time: 16m42s - 17m35s (Ignoring Opening and previous episode recap)
Context: Kibitoshin asks what the affects of Yi Xing Long's minus energy will be.
Elder Kaioshin: "If he is not defeated, and the Dragon Balls are not decontaminated then the minus energy overflowing from them will envelop the whole earth, and pollute everything on it. And then, at the end, the Earth itself will become decayed. No it's worse than just that...Before long, the minus energy inundating the Earth will corrode the nearby worlds, one after another, and soon, the entire galaxy will be spoilt and be gone."
Kibitoshin: "T-then, this Kaioshin Realm as well...?"
Elder Kaioshin: "Mm-hmm, we will not be spared either."

And the Kaioshinkai also exists in an area of the Afterlife difficult to access even for the Dai Kaio, as expanded on in the first image, meaning the minus energy would have to cross over universal/dimensional boundaries.

Why does all this make Super Yi Xing Long at least Universe level? Well, that would be due to the Minus Energy Power Ball being the concentrated total of Yi Xing Long's entire minus energy into a single point, meaning he would be able to accomplish in this single attack what he should normally be capable of doing gradually.

Part #3 - Scaling this to other characters

Getting the most obvious one out of the way, Gogeta definitely scales from this in him being able to purify the Minus Energy Power Ball and kick it away without difficulty. Then there was his Big Bang Kamehameha:

Episode 60
Time: around 19m20s
Context: As Gogeta prepares his final attack
Gogeta: “Let’s finish this up, Yi Xing Long! I’ll send you to the Next World with this!”
Note: The attack was the Big Bang Kamehame-Ha.

Gogeta's reaction would seem to suggest he's putting as much effort into this as into his previous kick. We then have this statement.

Episode 60
Time: 20m20s
Context: Yi Xing Long survived Gogeta’s Big Bang Kamehame-Ha
Yi Xing Long: “I haven’t kicked the bucket yet!”
Gogeta: “You’re a persistent one, huh? But no matter how much you struggle, it’s no use! With this next blast, you’re going to be obliterated for sure!”

The first sentence seems to suggest Gogeta find's YXL's survival commendable, not seeming to use the latter's regeneration as a major factor (and one it's debatable he even used when having been reverted to his base form and the regeneration being something he took from Wu Xing Long). That said, this feat should scale to Super Yi Xing Long's durability. There's also this statement:

Episode 61
Time: around 4m45s
Context: As Yi attempts to reintegrate the 4-star Dragon Ball
Yi Xing Long: “Once I have all the Dragon Balls together, one Power Ball blast will take care of you!”

As we know from characters such as Piccolo Daimao, spamming your trump card and expecting it to carry similar results to the first won't be possible unless your base power is already on a similar level of destructive capacity. Therefore, Super Yi Xing Long's attack potency ought to be on a comparable level to his Power Ball. Therefore, Super Yi Xing Long is at least Universe level.

What about other characters? Well, Beyond Limits SS4 Goku/Vegeta scale from this, considering both could endure some solid hits from Super YXL and even affected him somewhat.

Episode 61
Time: 8m10s
Subject: Goku’s headbutt
Yi Xing Long: “So that’s it. That one hurt a little.”

It's worth noting this was post-fusion and Goku was already starting to lose Ki due to fatigue, so this scaling to his Beyond Limits SS4 form and to Vegeta's SS4 form at full power is evident, as well as to that of Post-Revival Si Xing Long and possibly Yi Xing Long. Full Power SS4 Goku and those of his level such as Golden Oozaru Baby and Super #17's peak are a more difficult ball game to judge, though they at least get Multi-Galaxy+ scaling from previous feats.

Part #5 - Comparing this to Super

So, how does this stack up in the GT VS Super debate? Well, the GT top tiers actually get pretty high in the DBS Manga continuity, with the Power Ball and SS4 Gogeta possibly soloing anyone outside of Zen-Oh given how the only other Universe level feat (Goku and Beerus' punches clashing) isn't given a solid timeframe on how long it'd take to destroy Universe 7 and was due to the power of their combined exchange. Manga Beerus also lacks anywhere near as impressive speed feats as his anime self, with DBS Manga characters being fairly lacking when it comes to speed feats in general.

Anime-wise, the timeframe of Goku and Beerus' combined clashes being enough to destroy Universe 7 is far better defined and, thus, they are more solidly Universe level than their manga counterparts. The Minus Energy Power Ball ought to be comparable to their combined power in their fight, though it's difficult to say how it would fare in a Super gauntlet. At the very most, both it and SS4 Gogeta still wouldn't be a match for Infinite Zamasu who could affect multiple timelines with his mere presence, nor Initial Jiren who was confirmed superior to him by Shin, nor ToP high tiers such as KKx20 Blue Goku, SSBE Vegeta, etc. via-scaling from Hakaishin Toppo shaking the World of Void. Still, anyone below such tiers is fair game as far as GT VS Super discussion goes.
 

SIAD

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I find everything you raise very interesting.

 I personally based only on M12, I have almost any character on Gotenks Base (Post) at least Galaxy Level. After toodo nothing contradicts that more powerful characters within DBZ cannot perform such feats, even characters like Super Boo (can open a Dimension), Gohan Boo (Enraged) can destroy many Dimensions. Also in both continuities, they quickly reach the Universe Level.

 My questions are:

 The Macroverse of both continuities, how many Universes will it correspond to? There is the Mortal Universe, the Other World, the Kaioshinkai.

 Can Gogeta SSJ4 destroy structures superior to the Macroverse of DBGT? Considering that in the DBGT World, the biggest Structure is the Macroverse? At least I think that Gogeta SSJ4 (the most powerful character of DBGT), is the only one capable of performing such a feat. It seems strange to me that it can destroy Structures superior to the Macroverse (greater Structure of its Continuity). I am of the theory that Omega Yi Xing Long (Minus Energy Power Ball) has enough power to destroy much of the Universe and if we add its Negative Energy, it can contaminate the entire Macroverse and in turn destroy it. Only a Macroverse Level has enough power not only to destroy the attack, but also to clean the Negative Energy. It is just a theory.

In OBD they have the Galaxy Level with a minimum of 10 ^ 54 Joules = 10 ^ 10 Foe.

  Multi Galaxy Level with a minimum of 10 ^ 65 Joules = 10 ^ 21 Foe.

  Mass Observable Universe Energy = 4 * 10 ^ 69 Joules = 4 * 10 ^ 25 Foe.

  Having no calculation of the Minimum Energy to destroy the Universe, I would prefer to say that the Minimum Energy to destroy the Universe is equal to the energy of the Energy Mass of the Observable Universe. Which equals 4 * 10 ^ 69 Joules.

  Then the Minimum Energy to destroy the Macroverse, would correspond to the amount of Universes that is equivalent to the Macroverse and that multiply it by 4 * 10 ^ 69 Joules.
 

Captain Cadaver

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SIAD said:
 The Macroverse of both continuities, how many Universes will it correspond to? There is the Mortal Universe, the Other World, the Kaioshinkai.
From what we know of how Universe 7 is structured, we know that the mortal realm/universe and heaven being as wide as the universe makes it at minimum the size of two universes, likely slightly larger due to Hell and the Makai (though both of these are situated at the bottom of the mortal realm and afterlife respectively).

Devil Realm
Area: Universe
Special Characteristics: Dabura ruled it as king. It is said to be a world that exists at the bottom of the universe. Its other names are the Demon Realm of Darkness, or simply the Demon Realm. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)

Hell
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: Akkuman’s birthplace. It is also the destination of wicked souls. It is situated at the bottom of the afterlife. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)
Anime: While heading to Planet Kaio on the Serpent Road, Goku fell to Block 1, #3 of Hell. (Daizenshuu 3, p. 162). This is also where Cell, after being defeated by Gohan and dieing, went on a rampage along with Freeza and the Ginyu Special-Squad before being put down by Paikuhan. (Daizenshuu 5, p.140)

Therefore, at minimum it would be slightly over that of two standard universes.

Also, as stated in the 1st image in the OP, the Kaioshinkai is as large as 10% of the macrocosm, but completely separate from it, so to destroy the macrocosm and the Kaioshinkai would equate to destroying at least 2 universe + an additional 10% of both (or an additional 20% of the universe).

Can Gogeta SSJ4 destroy structures superior to the Macroverse of DBGT?
Most likely not as despite being far above an attack that can destroy multiple universal structures, that still wouldn't have Gogeta qualify as Multiverse level in the standard tiering definition. To simplify things, the requirements between that and universe-level are:

High Universe level (Tier High 3-A) = Capable of destroying an infinite amount of 3-D matter, but incapable of destroying 4-D concepts such as the space-time continuum.
Universe+ level (Tier Low 2-C) = Capable of destroying not only a universe's physical mass, but also its space-time continuum/timeline (Infinite Zamasu, Hakaishin Toppo and Anime Jiren are on this level, as well as those who scale from them).
Low-Multiverse level (Tier 2-C) = Capable of destroying between 2 and 1,000 universal space-time continuums (only character in either main continuity that's on this level is Zen-Oh).
Multiverse level (Tier 2-B) = Characters who can destroy more than 1,000 universal space-time continuums (several DBH/Xenoverse characters are on this level due to feats involving multiple timelines and such, some examples being Demigra planning on destroying all of the timelines via Tokitoki's Egg in Xenoverse and planning a similar feat for both the DBH timelines and Beat's World in the DBH continuity).

That said, SS4 Gogeta would still classify as just Universe level. You could make the argument of him being High Universe level based on his power in the GT Perfect Files being described as infinite and the fact that Super Yi Xing Long can affect even the Kaioshinkai that lies outside the macrocosm, though Gogeta certainly lacks any feats that would bump him up to the level of affecting the space-time continuum.
 

Pakl

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I would not have any respect for GT as it was terrible but good post anyway
 

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Fantastische Hure said:
But you like DB-Super. :eek:mg :eek:mg :eek:mg

The story, yes. The power scaling, no. It's even worse than GT.
 

Fantastische Hure

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DragonBall GT has an arguably better story from what I heard than DB-Super just not that good of an execution.

So even story-wise DragonBall GT seems better.
 

Captain Cadaver

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GT had terrible writing, though compared to Super it may as well be considered a masterpiece.
 

SIAD

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Captain Cadaver said:
SIAD said:
 The Macroverse of both continuities, how many Universes will it correspond to? There is the Mortal Universe, the Other World, the Kaioshinkai.
From what we know of how Universe 7 is structured, we know that the mortal realm/universe and heaven being as wide as the universe makes it at minimum the size of two universes, likely slightly larger due to Hell and the Makai (though both of these are situated at the bottom of the mortal realm and afterlife respectively).

Devil Realm
Area: Universe
Special Characteristics: Dabura ruled it as king. It is said to be a world that exists at the bottom of the universe. Its other names are the Demon Realm of Darkness, or simply the Demon Realm. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)

Hell
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: Akkuman’s birthplace. It is also the destination of wicked souls. It is situated at the bottom of the afterlife. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)
Anime: While heading to Planet Kaio on the Serpent Road, Goku fell to Block 1, #3 of Hell. (Daizenshuu 3, p. 162). This is also where Cell, after being defeated by Gohan and dieing, went on a rampage along with Freeza and the Ginyu Special-Squad before being put down by Paikuhan. (Daizenshuu 5, p.140)

Therefore, at minimum it would be slightly over that of two standard universes.

Also, as stated in the 1st image in the OP, the Kaioshinkai is as large as 10% of the macrocosm, but completely separate from it, so to destroy the macrocosm and the Kaioshinkai would equate to destroying at least 2 universe + an additional 10% of both (or an additional 20% of the universe).

Can Gogeta SSJ4 destroy structures superior to the Macroverse of DBGT?
Most likely not as despite being far above an attack that can destroy multiple universal structures, that still wouldn't have Gogeta qualify as Multiverse level in the standard tiering definition. To simplify things, the requirements between that and universe-level are:

High Universe level (Tier High 3-A) = Capable of destroying an infinite amount of 3-D matter, but incapable of destroying 4-D concepts such as the space-time continuum.
Universe+ level (Tier Low 2-C) = Capable of destroying not only a universe's physical mass, but also its space-time continuum/timeline (Infinite Zamasu, Hakaishin Toppo and Anime Jiren are on this level, as well as those who scale from them).
Low-Multiverse level (Tier 2-C) = Capable of destroying between 2 and 1,000 universal space-time continuums (only character in either main continuity that's on this level is Zen-Oh).
Multiverse level (Tier 2-B) = Characters who can destroy more than 1,000 universal space-time continuums (several DBH/Xenoverse characters are on this level due to feats involving multiple timelines and such, some examples being Demigra planning on destroying all of the timelines via Tokitoki's Egg in Xenoverse and planning a similar feat for both the DBH timelines and Beat's World in the DBH continuity).

That said, SS4 Gogeta would still classify as just Universe level. You could make the argument of him being High Universe level based on his power in the GT Perfect Files being described as infinite and the fact that Super Yi Xing Long can affect even the Kaioshinkai that lies outside the macrocosm, though Gogeta certainly lacks any feats that would bump him up to the level of affecting the space-time continuum.

Then it could be said that Goku SSJG (Vs Beerus) and Omega Yi Xing Long (Minus Energy Power Ball) are MacroUse Reversers, equivalent to 2.2-2.5x the Universe approximately. Therefore their powers equal 10 ^ 70 Joules.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
SIAD said:
 The Macroverse of both continuities, how many Universes will it correspond to? There is the Mortal Universe, the Other World, the Kaioshinkai.
From what we know of how Universe 7 is structured, we know that the mortal realm/universe and heaven being as wide as the universe makes it at minimum the size of two universes, likely slightly larger due to Hell and the Makai (though both of these are situated at the bottom of the mortal realm and afterlife respectively).

Devil Realm
Area: Universe
Special Characteristics: Dabura ruled it as king. It is said to be a world that exists at the bottom of the universe. Its other names are the Demon Realm of Darkness, or simply the Demon Realm. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)

Hell
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: Akkuman’s birthplace. It is also the destination of wicked souls. It is situated at the bottom of the afterlife. (Daizenshuu 7, p.36)
Anime: While heading to Planet Kaio on the Serpent Road, Goku fell to Block 1, #3 of Hell. (Daizenshuu 3, p. 162). This is also where Cell, after being defeated by Gohan and dieing, went on a rampage along with Freeza and the Ginyu Special-Squad before being put down by Paikuhan. (Daizenshuu 5, p.140)

Therefore, at minimum it would be slightly over that of two standard universes.

Also, as stated in the 1st image in the OP, the Kaioshinkai is as large as 10% of the macrocosm, but completely separate from it, so to destroy the macrocosm and the Kaioshinkai would equate to destroying at least 2 universe + an additional 10% of both (or an additional 20% of the universe).

Can Gogeta SSJ4 destroy structures superior to the Macroverse of DBGT?
Most likely not as despite being far above an attack that can destroy multiple universal structures, that still wouldn't have Gogeta qualify as Multiverse level in the standard tiering definition. To simplify things, the requirements between that and universe-level are:

High Universe level (Tier High 3-A) = Capable of destroying an infinite amount of 3-D matter, but incapable of destroying 4-D concepts such as the space-time continuum.
Universe+ level (Tier Low 2-C) = Capable of destroying not only a universe's physical mass, but also its space-time continuum/timeline (Infinite Zamasu, Hakaishin Toppo and Anime Jiren are on this level, as well as those who scale from them).
Low-Multiverse level (Tier 2-C) = Capable of destroying between 2 and 1,000 universal space-time continuums (only character in either main continuity that's on this level is Zen-Oh).
Multiverse level (Tier 2-B) = Characters who can destroy more than 1,000 universal space-time continuums (several DBH/Xenoverse characters are on this level due to feats involving multiple timelines and such, some examples being Demigra planning on destroying all of the timelines via Tokitoki's Egg in Xenoverse and planning a similar feat for both the DBH timelines and Beat's World in the DBH continuity).

That said, SS4 Gogeta would still classify as just Universe level. You could make the argument of him being High Universe level based on his power in the GT Perfect Files being described as infinite and the fact that Super Yi Xing Long can affect even the Kaioshinkai that lies outside the macrocosm, though Gogeta certainly lacks any feats that would bump him up to the level of affecting the space-time continuum.

Then it could be said that Goku SSJG (Vs Beerus / DBS) is 10x Beerus (Movie 14)?
 

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Fearless In Quarantine said:
Can you post the power chain of the characters to get the main idea?
SS4 Gogeta >> Minus Energy Power Ball >/>> Super Yi Xing Long >>>> Beyond Limits SS4 Goku/Vegeta >> Yi Xing Long >>> Super #17 (Peak) >> Full Power SS4 Goku ~ 2nd form Si Xing Long >> Golden Oozaru Baby

Just a rough look at GT's top tiers. Didn't bother to include questionable entries such as post-revival Si Xing Long, but it gets the point across.
 

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Initial Anime Jiren >/>> Hakaishin Toppo ~ Infinite Zamasu >>> SS4 Gogeta >> Minus Energy Power Ball >/>> Super Yi Xing Long ~ Anime SSG Goku (Peak VS Beerus)/Suppressed Beerus > DBS Manga Continuity (minus Zen-Oh)
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
Initial Anime Jiren >/>> Hakaishin Toppo ~ Infinite Zamasu >>> SS4 Gogeta >> Minus Energy Power Ball >/>> Super Yi Xing Long ~ Anime SSG Goku (Peak VS Beerus)/Suppressed Beerus > DBS Manga Continuity (minus Zen-Oh)

Won't it be Minus Energy Power Ball = Anime SSG Goku (Peak VS Beerus)?

  Goku SSJG achievement prevent Beerus destroy all Macroverso with Kaioshinkai.

  What do you mean with DBS Manga Continuity (minus Zen-Oh)?
 

Captain Cadaver

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SIAD said:
Won't it be Minus Energy Power Ball = Anime SSG Goku (Peak VS Beerus)?

  Goku SSJG achievement prevent Beerus destroy all Macroverso with Kaioshinkai.
[/quote]It still required several hits of Beerus and SSG Goku clashing (ie. their combined power) to come close to destroying Universe 7's entirety, whereas the Minus Energy Power Ball was capable of doing so at once.

What do you mean with DBS Manga Continuity (minus Zen-Oh)?
DBS' manga continuity is far weaker than the anime continuity due to SSG Goku and Beerus' clashes that would destroy the universe having no solid timeframe of when they would or how many hits they would require, making both characters only Multi-Galaxy+ level at best. Later feats of other characters do nothing to improve their ranking via-scaling, with the only exception to this being Zen-Oh still being as powerful as his anime self.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
That was in the anime and, thus, can't apply to their manga selves.

In Chapter 6 of the Manga they show a fight they had in the past Beerus and Champa. Shortly before the end of the fight, Champa began to create an Energy Ball and affirmed that he did not care what happened to that Universe, Beerus prepared another Energy Ball, until Vados and Whis intervened.

  Therefore, the Gods of the manga are on the Universe Level.
 

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