How far above SSJ Vegeta was Android 18?

Fantastische Hure

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#18 didn't look like she was even taking Vegeta seriously.

If you want to look at #18 taking someone serious, you can look at #18 in her fight against Mighty-Mask, and the look on her face when the blast is coming.

Vegeta never looked like a threat.
 

Clearin

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Fantastische Hure said:
#18 didn't look like she was even taking Vegeta seriously.

If you want to look at #18 taking someone serious, you can look at #18 in her fight against Mighty-Mask, and the look on her face when the blast is coming.

Vegeta never looked like a threat.
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Clearin said:
Fantastische Hure said:
#18 didn't look like she was even taking Vegeta seriously.

If you want to look at #18 taking someone serious, you can look at #18 in her fight against Mighty-Mask, and the look on her face when the blast is coming.

Vegeta never looked like a threat.
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
but we clearly also see how an android is when they do fight all-out & evenly against some1

piccolo vs #17

clearly that doesn't look anything like vegeta vs #18

#18 also calls vegeta nothing special

& later-on she says vegeta was helpless against him

& when she wanted to she broke his arm, i guess u could say vegeta's power might have gone down quite a bit by then, but it doesn't look that much
 

Southern Gothic

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Fantastische Hure said:
Clearin said:
Fantastische Hure said:
#18 didn't look like she was even taking Vegeta seriously.

If you want to look at #18 taking someone serious, you can look at #18 in her fight against Mighty-Mask, and the look on her face when the blast is coming.

Vegeta never looked like a threat.
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
but we clearly also see how an android is when they do fight all-out & evenly against some1

piccolo vs #17

clearly that doesn't look anything like vegeta vs #18

#18 also calls vegeta nothing special

& later-on she says vegeta was helpless against him

& when she wanted to she broke his arm, i guess u could say vegeta's power might have gone down quite a bit by then, but it doesn't look that much
Would you agree that Vegeta vs 18 was closer at the beginning than at the end (because Vegeta was worn down) or do you think it was about the same the whole way through?
 

Fantastische Hure

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Southern Gothic said:
Fantastische Hure said:
Clearin said:
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
but we clearly also see how an android is when they do fight all-out & evenly against some1

piccolo vs #17

clearly that doesn't look anything like vegeta vs #18

#18 also calls vegeta nothing special

& later-on she says vegeta was helpless against him

& when she wanted to she broke his arm, i guess u could say vegeta's power might have gone down quite a bit by then, but it doesn't look that much
Would you agree that Vegeta vs 18 was closer at the beginning than at the end (because Vegeta was worn down) or do you think it was about the same the whole way through?
at the beginning they might have been a bit closer, since neither of them were rly trying anyways
 

Clearin

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Fantastische Hure said:
Clearin said:
Fantastische Hure said:
#18 didn't look like she was even taking Vegeta seriously.

If you want to look at #18 taking someone serious, you can look at #18 in her fight against Mighty-Mask, and the look on her face when the blast is coming.

Vegeta never looked like a threat.
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
but we clearly also see how an android is when they do fight all-out & evenly against some1

piccolo vs #17

clearly that doesn't look anything like vegeta vs #18

#18 also calls vegeta nothing special

& later-on she says vegeta was helpless against him

& when she wanted to she broke his arm, i guess u could say vegeta's power might have gone down quite a bit by then, but it doesn't look that much
Are you sugegsting she wasn't going all out? Because that's stated to us.

Yeah, I do think Vegeta and #18 aren't equal in power. I think they fought on par due to Vegeta's high speed (gravity training) and skill. It let's him get hits in, and block her hits. His power is close enough to give Tien, Krillin and Trunks hope, but apparently not enough to make her fear for her life.

#18 broke Vegeta's arm straight after Piccolo said Vegeta's was going to be killed because he was losing stamina while #18 wasn't. From a narrative standpoint it's pretty obvious that the point was to show Vegeta fighting on par with #18, then have Piccolo's statement, then have Piccolo's statement be proven.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Clearin said:
Fantastische Hure said:
Clearin said:
She wasn't taking him seriously. She's not really gonna show any fear to a guy she knows she can beat. But she was fighting all out. Fighting all out meant she was strong enough so that Vegeta would lose, thus she has no reason to fear. The only way he'd win is to get a charged blast on her, which wasn't happening. None of his punches were gonna do anything in the long run.
but we clearly also see how an android is when they do fight all-out & evenly against some1

piccolo vs #17

clearly that doesn't look anything like vegeta vs #18

#18 also calls vegeta nothing special

& later-on she says vegeta was helpless against him

& when she wanted to she broke his arm, i guess u could say vegeta's power might have gone down quite a bit by then, but it doesn't look that much
Are you sugegsting she wasn't going all out? Because that's stated to us.

Yeah, I do think Vegeta and #18 aren't equal in power. I think they fought on par due to Vegeta's high speed (gravity training) and skill. It let's him get hits in, and block her hits. His power is close enough to give Tien, Krillin and Trunks hope, but apparently not enough to make her fear for her life.

#18 broke Vegeta's arm straight after Piccolo said Vegeta's was going to be killed because he was losing stamina while #18 wasn't. From a narrative standpoint it's pretty obvious that the point was to show Vegeta fighting on par with #18, then have Piccolo's statement, then have Piccolo's statement be proven.
ye, i don't think so

well maybe not all-out, but she def. wasn't trying i think

u can be at full-power, but not try at-all

full-power =/= effort-level

there's also vegeta calling cell's ki "absurdly large", who seemed to be inferior to #18 at the time

u could say that could have multiple meanings, but if u look at the times "absurdly large" has been used it's always been used in sit.s where the opponent/enemy was much higher than the person saying it was

so:

#18 > piccolo (weighted) >/>> cell >>/>>> vegeta
 

Clearin

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Fantastische Hure said:
#18 > piccolo (weighted) >/>> cell >>/>>> vegeta
That's way to big of a gap to me. She was going all out, as stated in the manga. I don't believe she was holding back because it goes directly against what we were told. And for Vegeta to walk out of her attacks smiling, that gap is impossible imo.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Clearin said:
Fantastische Hure said:
#18 > piccolo (weighted) >/>> cell >>/>>> vegeta
That's way to big of a gap to me. She was going all out, as stated in the manga. I don't believe she was holding back because it goes directly against what we were told. And for Vegeta to walk out of her attacks smiling, that gap is impossible imo.
that's the gap that's implied in the series, tho

like i said some1 can be at full-power, but still not put in full effort

like pulling ur punches

#18 clearly didn't try to kill vegeta so she didn't do it

the later implications all lead to:

#18 >>> vegeta

including even before #18 calling vegeta nothing special
 

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Clearin said:
Not much stronger. After Vegeta blows up the truck they both starting fighting all out, so I'll use the fight from that point onwards. Also that's a very important line I think most people ignore/don't know about. #18 isn't holding back after the point Vegeta blows up the truck.

#18 headbutts Vegeta, which causes him some pain but does not do any serious damage. That alone would tell me there isn't a big gap between them. #18 manages to take a punch to the gut, she doesn't show any signs of pain, and she doesn't smile when taking the punch, but does smile afterwards.

When it comes to androids and actually showing pain things are a bit complicated. For example the only time either #17 or #18 actually make any sounds of pain is when Cell slams #17 into the floor. Piccolo never actually once makes #17 make any grunts of pain or anything like that, despite Piccolo making plenty himself. So at equal powers, androids apparently have enough pain tolerance to not make any sounds when hit. #17 does make a lot of pained facial expressions, but all of Piccolo's hits are at #17's face, not his stomach. Obviously hitting someone in the face is going to distort their face. #18's losing of her smile when hit could indicate it hurt her a bit. Unfortunately when she finally does get hit in the face t doesn't show her facial expression(mentioned later)

#18 then knees Vegeta in the stomach and smacks him into a mountain. And then Vegeta walks out smiling. Just to clarify, Vegeta got knocked into a mountain by #18, after taking a headbutt and a knee to the stomach when she was going ALL OUT, and smiled.

#18 smacks Vegeta across the face again, sending him towards the mountain, but Vegeta quickly recovers, and manages to headbutt #18 and then smack her down. This tells me that #18 isn't hitting Vegeta so hard that every blow is so powerful he can't recover from it, and then he can hit #18 both:
A) Fast enough so she can't react
B) Hard enough that he can follow it up before she can do anything back.
Unfortunately we don't see #18's facial expressions when Vegeta does both of these hits. It's a shame because it'd let us compare them to the Piccolo vs #17 fight.

Vegeta sends a Ki attack at her. It's not really named which might suggest a generic Ki blast. How strong is a generic Ki blast exactly? Never really stated. A quick, uncharged Ki blast may just be as strong as a punch as a way for a fighter to quickly get a hit in from a long range at the end of the combo. It's definitely not on something like final flash/light grenade level where the fighter specifically relies on charging it up and having the opponent take it head on. In this case Vegeta is simply throwing off a quickly blast to hit #18 before she can recover from his previous combo.
She does show a shocked expression when the blast is coming towards her, but obviously isn't affected by it. But of course due to her infinite stamina, the blast would need to pretty much kill her or it'd have no effect at all. Simply "hurting her" doesn't do anything in the long run.

#18 starts blocking some of Vegeta's hits. Vegeta blocks some of her hits. At this point Tien cheers Vegeta on, indicating that he still has a chance. Trunks thinks to himself that Vegeta is fighting on par with #18. Piccolo does say Vegeta will be killing, shocking Trunks and Krillin (so basically Tien, Trunks and Krillin have all in one way or another thought that Vegeta had a chance at this point), but he only says it's because #18's infinite stamina, and not due to a lack of power on Vegeta's end.

It's at that point #18 starts getting the upperhand, but it's attributed directly to Piccolo's reasoning.

So with all this in mind, we have three separate characters who thought Vegeta had a chance against #18, who was going all out. We have a full health Vegeta walking away from her attacks smiling. And we have Vegeta being able to get some legit hits and blocks in himself.

From the point #18 goes all out, to the point where Piccolo says Vegeta is losing stamina, #18 gets 4 hits on Vegeta, while Vegeta gets 3 on her (4 including the Ki blast) and then they both block each others hits. This seems pretty even until Vegeta loses stamina. Of the 3 hits Vegeta even manages to do one that sends #18 flying, something that can't be done to opponents that can tank your hits. It is worth noting that Vegeta seems to lose stamina much faster than Piccolo did vs #17, which would probably suggest they aren't equal in power.

Despite Trunks saying they're fighting evenly I don't think they have equal PLs. We have an actual fight between an Android and a character at equal PLs and there are some differences. #16 never points out that Vegeta is equal to #18, Vegeta loses his stamina faster and #17 is more visibly hurt by Piccolo's hits than #18 was (though since we don't see #18's face when she's actually hit in her face, I hesitate to use that).

I don't like using numbers but with all this in mind I guess I'd say a gap anywhere between x1.10-1.20 would be okay? If #18 is like #17 then the actual power of her punches probably isn't up to par with her level. Vegeta can fight her on par while at full stamina, despite being weaker through a combination of high speed (training under x300 gravity would make him much faster than most characters at his PL), and better skill.

Edit: Vegeta starting to lose his battle faster than Piccolo could be attributed to Vegeta losing his "state of mind" that Toriyama talked about. Piccolo would likely keep a level head in his fight, while Vegeta would get mad and that'd affect his abilities.
That post was interesting, but we have so much evidence indicating a large gap...
-Eighteen stating Vegeta is nothing special.
-Eighteen stating Vegeta was powerless against her.
-The SSJs<Ginger Cell<<Weighted Kamiccolo implied chain.
-Goku telling Gohan they cannot help Piccolo against the androids.

I think Eighteen just lied about going all out. It's not the first time in the series someone lies about that...
-At 22nd TB, against Krillin, Goku declared he'd go all out from the start, yet he only used a fraction of his
power.
-Old Piccolo said to Goku ''now, i'll show you my full, terrible power'' and, a few seconds later, he contradicts
himself, saying that wasn't even half of his power.
-When Freeza was pummelling Vegeta, the narrator said everyone was shocked by Freeza's full power,
yet, it was soon revealed that was way less than 50%.
 

Evil Vegeta

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Piccolo rivaling both Androids tells us that #18 and Vegeta can't be close. Vegeta quickly drops out of Super Saiyan when he see's Piccolo's power up close with his own eyes.

So while it's stated that #18 was going all-out, we know for a fact she was still playing around to an extent. She nonchalantly tells Vegeta he's nothing special when she asks if Goku is better.
 

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Not to mention that Trunks, Vegeta and Goku are stated to be around the same league while Cell doesn't perceive Trunks as a threat and even killed him before. Goku also says he can't defeat the cyborgs or Cell, the latter of whom he only has Gingertown Cell to go by. Weighted Piccolo rivals the cyborgs, yet notes Cell is notably below them - and Vegeta still perceives all of them as powers above his own. The only thing that appears to be factual about #18's limits is that she can't take Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and the others all at once.
 

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17 vs Piccolo being the bar for what a 50 vs 100 power looks like is very interesting ain't it? On a, completely change your whole power level list kind of interesting. Piccolo looks like a complete baby shit waiting to get killed fight and that's with others helping too huh? God damn a 2x boost is tremendous.

Although nowhere near big enough for me to justify the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 imo.
 

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Do you guys at least think that at the time Toriyama wrote it he intended for Vegeta and #18 to be quite close? Having #18 saying she'd go all out is a pointless line if Toriyama intended for it to be a lie. And unlike the examples you posted, it wasn't contradicted straight-up, it's only contradicted by a series of other statements that might make it impossible. Toriyama made a point to have Trunks saying Vegeta was fighting on par with an all-out #18, along with Tien and Krillin thinking Vegeta could win, and #17 saying other people joining in would spell a loss for #18. And then he only had Vegeta start losing straight after making Piccolo said Vegeta would lose due to his deceasing stamina. From a writing stand-point, it seems clear that at the particular moment Toriyama intended for Vegeta and #18 to be fairly close in power, and for the deciding factor to be #18's infinite energy.

I do think some things can easily be explained. Like #16 saying Kamiccolo rivals #17 and #18, he could just be speaking to them as a pair than individually. In fact, #17 himself would contradict #16's statement if he meant individually by saying nobody rivals him, and this isn't shot down by #18. Unless the numbers are like:
#18: 10
Weighted Kamiccolo: 12.5
#17: 15

So weighted Kamiccolo is in the middle of both of them, and close enough to rival both of them without the androids themselves rivalling each other.

#18 saying Vegeta is nothing special could just be her taunting him cos of his big mouth. Saying he was helpless against her isn't wrong. He was helpless against her by the end of the battle, but only because of her infinite stamina.

Just curious but is it generally accepted that Piccolo fusing with Kami boosted his power by x2? I've seen that around a few times based on a statement in the Freeza saga, and if it is the case then it's a pretty tight gap between all these characters anyway.
 

p123

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Yep 18 vs Vegeta is pretty close, only after Cell is introduced is the gap suggested to be the wide. This is why this Saga is a bit choppy, he has different mentalities at different times.

The main villains keep getting changed thus the power scaling changes as well.
 

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Lightsworn said:
What's wrong with Piccolo >= 18 >= Cell >= Vegeta?
Cell is not stated to rival 18, thus implying a gap.
 

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Super Saiyan said:
Lightsworn said:
What's wrong with Piccolo >= 18 >= Cell >= Vegeta?
Cell is not stated to rival 18, thus implying a gap.
16 mentioned Piccolo rivaling both androids. Cell can rival one but not the other.
 

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Well I'd think Cell would still be mentioned if he rivalled even one of them. That would require him to be pretty much equal to weighted Piccolo...
 

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