How far above SSJ Vegeta was Android 18?

[p123]

Well I always have a saying, if you can't put what you are saying into numerical form, you probably ain't saying much regarding this series.

 

[Lightsworn]

Numbers made up a very small part of the manga and even then they ended up not being consistent. I see no reason to much any emphasis on them. You can if you want to. I just don't see a need to.

 

[ahill1]

Kamiccolo 15
#17 15
#18 14
Kamiccolo ( Weighted ) 13.5
Imperfect Cell ( Ginger Town ) 12
Vegeta SSJ 10
Goku SSJ 9.5
Trunks SSJ 8.8
Piccolo 7.5


Future #17 10
Future #18 10

This seems perfect.

 

[Clearin]

I'm not a fan of numbers either. They're just way too arbitrary. You might be able to use numbers for some characters up to the Freeza saga, where the last official PL is stated: 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000...but even then how much over? That alone starts a huge chain of completely random and made up numbers. The two times Freeza powers up, the jump to third form, then fourth form and so on. And then you get to Trunks' arrival, where time has passed and absolutely zero indication of how much improvement any character has made.

Toriyama definitely wasn't the kind of man who was thinking about specific gaps between fighters. I doubt he even had multipliers in mind for Super Saiyan forms, as far as he was concerned it just meant "stronger". He's not the kind of person to carefully analyse each of these aspects so in depth like many people here do. That's the main reason I don't use numbers, because the point is X character is stronger than Y character, by how much is basically just "A lot" "Not very much", or something along those lines.

If people want to use them then I have no problem, but to say that someone else's opinion is invalid because they don't use them isn't fair imo.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't see how you can rival two powers if they're not at least in the same vicinity. If Piccolo rivals both, then there isn't a huge difference between the twins. If it was more specified like the anime, then it'd make sense to have them further apart.

I'm not sure how Trunks really compares to Vegeta outside of being weaker than him. From what I can see:

1) Kami notes that Vegeta's "abilities are even greater than Trunks" while talking to Piccolo.

2) Vegeta says that Trunks and the others would be useless against #18.

3) Trunks getting all excited about Vegeta being able to fight with #18 as if he couldn't do it himself.

4) Vegeta calls Trunks' blast in Gero's lab a "waste of energy", which shows how little he thinks of the kid.

So not considerably weaker, but enough for it to be noted.

 

[p123]

Basically anything can be broken down numerically. I think the ones who run away from the numerical talk have no choice to because they cannot numerically show their opinion. Just what I've noticed from experience. It's a hell of a lot easier to say " Well he's a good amount stronger " rather than, well how much stronger is he exactly?

In the actual DB universe, they all have a level associated with their power if there was a scouter strong enough to read it. The entire series is based upon battle power being the number 1 most relevant issue 99% of the time.

 

[Lightsworn]

The story itself just puts emphasis on being able to defeat the enemy with enough power. It never puts any emphasis on percentages or gaps at all. That's something that us fans put way too much focus on. I don't anymore because that's not the way the story is meant to be read.

 

[p123]

Huh? The entire series is about them comparing themselves to the villains, then decided whether to shit their pants of laugh at them. Constantly comparing their power to their opponents power, think you've been listening to a little too much Kanzenshuu nonsense hombre, powa is everything here.

 

[Lightsworn]

i never said power wasn't everything because it obviously is. What I heavily disagree with is how much focus is placed on gaps and percentages. The more i thought about it the more silly it sounded. Like "oh if you're 90% of some one then you can put up a fight, but once you're 87% of someones it's a stomp." like what??? That just sounds so silly in my opinion. We're not meant to pull out calculators and calculate gaps and numbers. That's just weird.

 

[p123]

This is actually what they consistently do in the manga. I think you have been brainwashed by Kanzenshuu types who think numbers are icky and forces them to be more detailed in their explanations. They can't have any of that, vague answers are all the rave dude! Here's how the story works.

1) Someone powers up
2) Ki sensing people sniff the power up person's ass and get a good whiff
3) Then based on how said ass stanks, they make a determination of how long it will take to bust a nut

 

[Kyo]

I don't mind people not using numbers but that's a golden post, p.

#18 is -650% above Vegeta.

 

[Lightsworn]

This is actually what they consistently do in the manga. I think you have been brainwashed by Kanzenshuu types who think numbers are icky and forces them to be more detailed in their explanations. They can't have any of that, vague answers are all the rave dude! Here's how the story works.

1) Someone powers up
2) Ki sensing people sniff the power up person's ass and get a good whiff
3) Then based on how said ass stanks, they make a determination of how long it will take to bust a nut

Show me just one quote of someone saying "I'm 88% of this guy, so I'm screwed!" These gaps and percentages are just up rules that you've come up with. Even in the manga they are not consistent. You are putting far too much focus in it when not even the manga cares about stuff like that.

 

[Clearin]

This is actually what they consistently do in the manga. I think you have been brainwashed by Kanzenshuu types who think numbers are icky and forces them to be more detailed in their explanations. They can't have any of that, vague answers are all the rave dude! Here's how the story works.

1) Someone powers up
2) Ki sensing people sniff the power up person's ass and get a good whiff
3) Then based on how said ass stanks, they make a determination of how long it will take to bust a nut

Show me just one quote of someone saying "I'm 88% of this guy, so I'm screwed!" These gaps and percentages are just up rules that you've come up with. Even in the manga they are not consistent. You are putting far too much focus in it when not even the manga cares about stuff like that.

The main problem is people use Vegeta vs Dodoria as an example of a stomping gap, but don't take into account things like:
-Speed
-Skill
-The fact Vegeta can sense energy and thus would have an easier time following his opponent
-Confidence (Something Toriyama said affected Ki level)
-Right state of mind (Same as above).

 

[Lightsworn]

This is actually what they consistently do in the manga. I think you have been brainwashed by Kanzenshuu types who think numbers are icky and forces them to be more detailed in their explanations. They can't have any of that, vague answers are all the rave dude! Here's how the story works.

1) Someone powers up
2) Ki sensing people sniff the power up person's ass and get a good whiff
3) Then based on how said ass stanks, they make a determination of how long it will take to bust a nut

Show me just one quote of someone saying "I'm 88% of this guy, so I'm screwed!" These gaps and percentages are just up rules that you've come up with. Even in the manga they are not consistent. You are putting far too much focus in it when not even the manga cares about stuff like that.

The main problem is people use Vegeta vs Dodoria as an example of a stomping gap, but don't take into account things like:
-Speed
-Skill
-The fact Vegeta can sense energy and thus would have an easier time following his opponent
-Confidence (Something Toriyama said affected Ki level)
-Right state of mind (Same as above).

That's true. I don't see why every fight with the same percentage gap should be the same for every fight. Nor do I see why we need to follow such strict rules such as:

100% = Even fight
95% = Somewhat even fight
90% = Almost a stomp
85% = Stomp

After looking at it, I question why I even followed such rules so strictly.

 

[SSJ2]

Reviving this because I just re read the fight. I'm seeing a pretty small gap to be honest, but there are weird statements that go against it.

First, after the Z fighters arrive to back up Vegeta (18 and Vegeta had already starting using full effort), Vegeta lands a nice combo on 18, causing her to compliment his power. However, after that, 18 says that she doesn't need to worry about either Goku or Vegeta. The important part is, does this mean both at once?

Zarbon and Dodoria could defeat Vegeta together, and that required a 1.23x-1.17x gap between the two of them. If 18 could beat both Goku and Vegeta, it would require more of a 1.3x gap.

However, Vegeta looks more impressive in this fight than Zarbon did against himself... so what if 18's statement is saying that she can handle them individually?

 

[Lightsworn]

Reviving this because I just re read the fight. I'm seeing a pretty small gap to be honest, but there are weird statements that go against it.

First, after the Z fighters arrive to back up Vegeta (18 and Vegeta had already starting using full effort), Vegeta lands a nice combo on 18, causing her to compliment his power. However, after that, 18 says that she doesn't need to worry about either Goku or Vegeta. The important part is, does this mean both at once?

Zarbon and Dodoria could defeat Vegeta together, and that required a 1.23x-1.17x gap between the two of them. If 18 could beat both Goku and Vegeta, it would require more of a 1.3x gap.

However, Vegeta looks more impressive in this fight than Zarbon did against himself... so what if 18's statement is saying that she can handle them individually?

I interpret 18's line as more of a way to make Vegeta angry and to cause him to attack with a combo that would drain his stamina quickly so that eventually she could gain the advantage.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

On the topic of gaps, what's the point of battle powers if you can't judge the outcome of a fight by the gap between two fighters? There are skills and techniques and stuff that can make a difference, but overall fights are predictable based on the two parties' powers regardless of any other variables.

It's a pretty lame system, but it's what we've got. Even if you distil it to a general higher battle power = victory, you're still acknowledging that a higher battle power indicates victory; you're not being as precise, but you're still using gaps; you're still looking at battle powers and predicting the outcome of a match based on them. A gap system is really no different. I don't think you can discard gaps without discarding battle power readings entirely, which is fine.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I always thought #18 was just saying both Goku and Vegeta were too weak to be an issue. She complimented Vegeta's power, but it seemed to me like she was hoping Goku was actually stronger.

 

[Kyo]

Yeah I take #18's statement as "well, if someone like Vegeta is this strong then Goku might actually be worth something...ah, Goku's weaker than you? That's a shame." It's like if something worthwhile in her eyes is a "10," and Vegeta is an "8," then she's thinking that Goku might turn out to be a "10." But then it turns out that Goku's not even as good as "8," so they're both worthless.

 

[p123]

Yea, even though the fight is contested pretty closely, 18 tanks Vegeta's punch, tanks Trunks, there's quite a gap.