How far above SSJ Vegeta was Android 18?

Lightsworn

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He could've, I don't think it's impossible though. He probably wanted to mention both so it could have more of an effect on them. According to my chain he wouldn't be equal to weighted Piccolo at least.

Piccolo >= 18 >= Cell

So there is enough of gap between Cell and Piccolo. In any case, Cell didn't take much damage from Piccolo's hits and instantly bounced back. So their fight doesn't show that much of a gap anyway.
 

SSJ2

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What kind of numbers do you have for those 3?
 

Lightsworn

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I don't do numbers anymore but to put in your perspective I'll try

Piccolo: 100
18: 95
Cell: 90
Vegeta: 85
 

Lightsworn

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18 definitely has the power advantage but Vegeta's performance was enough to tell me he's not all that far off.
 

p123

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She thought he was nothing and walked away completely unimpressed.
 

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Clearin said:
Do you guys at least think that at the time Toriyama wrote it he intended for Vegeta and #18 to be quite close? Having #18 saying she'd go all out is a pointless line if Toriyama intended for it to be a lie. And unlike the examples you posted, it wasn't contradicted straight-up, it's only contradicted by a series of other statements that might make it impossible. Toriyama made a point to have Trunks saying Vegeta was fighting on par with an all-out #18, along with Tien and Krillin thinking Vegeta could win, and #17 saying other people joining in would spell a loss for #18. And then he only had Vegeta start losing straight after making Piccolo said Vegeta would lose due to his deceasing stamina. From a writing stand-point, it seems clear that at the particular moment Toriyama intended for Vegeta and #18 to be fairly close in power, and for the deciding factor to be #18's infinite energy.

I do think some things can easily be explained. Like #16 saying Kamiccolo rivals #17 and #18, he could just be speaking to them as a pair than individually. In fact, #17 himself would contradict #16's statement if he meant individually by saying nobody rivals him, and this isn't shot down by #18. Unless the numbers are like:
#18: 10
Weighted Kamiccolo: 12.5
#17: 15

So weighted Kamiccolo is in the middle of both of them, and close enough to rival both of them without the androids themselves rivalling each other.

#18 saying Vegeta is nothing special could just be her taunting him cos of his big mouth. Saying he was helpless against her isn't wrong. He was helpless against her by the end of the battle, but only because of her infinite stamina.

Just curious but is it generally accepted that Piccolo fusing with Kami boosted his power by x2? I've seen that around a few times based on a statement in the Freeza saga, and if it is the case then it's a pretty tight gap between all these characters anyway.
I agree that, from a thematic point of view, it'd be better if Vegeta was just a little weaker and the stamina
made the difference and that was probably AT's original intention.
Eighteen never clearly said she's going all out. Maybe she meant she'll just get more serious.
To me, ''rivals'' means ''slightly weaker than''. So, Weighted Piccolo is slightly weaker than Eighteen.
Eighteen asked whether Goku is stronger, meaning that Vegeta<Goku(expected)<Eighteen
The 2x boost was stated at Freeza Saga by Guru, who said that the Nameless Namek diminished his power
by half when he split into Kami and King Piccolo.
 

p123

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Yep, the stamina is supposed to be the real reason here. Things change after Cell though imo. Let's not forget 17 is indeed one shotting Trunks as well.
 

Lightsworn

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p123 said:
Yep, the stamina is supposed to be the real reason here. Things change after Cell though imo. Let's not forget 17 is indeed one shotting Trunks as well.
Not only was Trunks off guard when he hit him, but I feel it was supposed to the difference between Trunks and Vegeta.
 

p123

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The difference isn't suggested to be all that large though. They are grouped together on several occassions.
 

Lightsworn

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p123 said:
The difference isn't suggested to be all that large though. They are grouped together on several occassions.
Being grouped together doesn't mean that much. Teen Gohan is grouped with Goku and Vegeta in the Boo Arc despite the vast difference in their powers. Vegeta put up a fight against 18 while Trunks was done in two hits, that suggests to me that Vegeta indeed has a decent power advantage over Trunks.
 

Clearin

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Lightsworn said:
p123 said:
Yep, the stamina is supposed to be the real reason here. Things change after Cell though imo. Let's not forget 17 is indeed one shotting Trunks as well.
Not only was Trunks off guard when he hit him, but I feel it was supposed to the difference between Trunks and Vegeta.
And the difference between #17 and #18.
 

p123

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Vegeta tried to escape Trunks and couldn't. Trunks was able to keep up with him just fine.
 

Lightsworn

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I'd say Vegeta putting up an actual fight against 18 and took far more hits before going unconscious while Trunks was done in two is far better proof than a simple flight comparison. Gohan and Krillin managed to fly away from Dodoeria for a good while. They weren't instantly speed blitzed. Gohan and Krillin also kept up with Vegeta while trying to escape from the Ginyu force. Piccolo was confident in his flight speed against 3rd form Freeza and Gohan was confident in his flight speed against Boo. It's not really the best comparison
 

Super Saiyan Overlord1007

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Her being 30-40% at best stronger is fine. He didn't really do anything significant to her unless you count roughing her outfight which is the norm in DBZ.
 

p123

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Ok Lightsworn. If Vegeta is 100, then how strong is Trunks then?
 

Lightsworn

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I don't do numbers anymore. I dropped them. I just know that Vegeta has a decent power advantage over Trunks.
 

Clearin

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What do you think about this line:
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…â€￾

If Goku isn't that much different from Vegeta and Trunks, wouldn't that by default mean Trunks isn't that different from Vegeta too?

You don't need Trunks to be that much weaker than Vegeta. #17 and #18 don't have to be close at all. #18 was specifically made to be suppressed more than #17 due to the whole lack of obeying thing. #17 himself says that she doesn't rival him.
 

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