How powerful are the Cell Arc humans? (Version 3289 or something)

[Captain Cadaver]

Yes, yet another of those age old topics revived, though one of the few that isn't beating a dead horse. Simply put, how strong are they and why?

First, it's best to look over the main arguments for and against their strength, those being:

- Gero's calculation (Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Gohan + Ten + Kuririn > SSJ Vegeta)
- Showing up for the battle when Piccolo told them not to if they'd be useless.
- Kuririn treating Super Saiyan as an unreachable tier (SSJs > Freeza >>> Humans)

That said, it's pretty clear that the highest level the humans could be at is still far below Super Saiyan tier. However, Kuririn's first assertion of this does have something interesting to it:

Add on Tenshithands' statement about SSJ Goku:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-3
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”

It's worth noting that in both statements, Kuririn and Tenshinhan cite Super Saiyan as being completely out of their league, which would imply the base Saiyans aren't completely out of their league at this point. Then again, Kuririn has a similar statement on the plane in the Boo Arc despite making it pretty clear shortly afterwards that even the base Saiyans such as Trunks are opponents he wouldn't want to go up against, so take that as you will.

Now, the main meat of things would be the Gero calculations, though this very informative analysis makes it apparent how flawed Gero's estimations are: http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11987&p=295632
I personally wouldn't say too much stock can be placed into it when Gero makes it apparent draining Piccolo twice would suffice. Some would say how it's implied by Gero saying things will get more interesting with Vegeta present that Base Vegeta > Suppressed Piccolo and, thus, necessitate something extra, but I don't see that as the case. Even if ignoring how awful Gero's calculations are, Vegeta was previously someone only matched by Goku amplifying his power with Kaioken and Gero could just be going by the status-quo. Along with that, Gero was clearly shocked by Piccolo's ability to get up without injury from his eye beam, so it was clear even a suppressed Piccolo had more power than Gero was aware of. That said, it's plausible to place Suppressed Piccolo far above the base Saiyans and be the bulk of energy in Gero's calculation.

So, we're left with the humans showing up to the battle as an indicator. This can be used as an indicator for Kuririn and Ten, with the former having no scepticism of Trunks and the latter still taking things seriously enough to leave Chaozu behind. As for Yamcha, we'll get back to him later.
The question remains, by how much though? They were still far below the Super Saiyans and not in the position where they and Gohan could do anything against Gero according to Piccolo, so it's hard to say. I'd say Kuririn and Tenshinhan ought to still be far above their selves from 3 years prior, though by how much is uncertain. They'd need to be relevant to the Super Saiyans to stand up to a threat Trunks was no match for, yet that clearly isn't the case, which makes the "they showed up" argument not that great.

If finding none of the main points mentioned to really do much in buffing up the humans, then we're left with what internal logic the series provides. Without plot dictating power, the gains from earthly training shouldn't be much when all the methods outside of gravity chambers (which the humans don't have constant access to) are old news and they didn't seem to train together beyond Ten and jabroni Chaozu, lacking any real sparring partners of worth like Goku, Gohan and Piccolo had training together. Logically, they shouldn't really make major strides after the Freeza Arc if the plot doesn't demand it.

Getting back to Yamcha in particular, he made it clear he didn't believe anything was going to happen:

Combine that with what's stated prior about earthly training, coupled with him having far more that would distract him from intense training than the others (his break up with Bulma, news of her hooking up with Vegeta and apparently gaining a new girlfriend), and there isn't much reason for him to get much stronger at all after his time on Kaio's.

So, to conclude the OP, unless drawing something further from the statements on SSJs to suggest Kuririn and Tenshinhan are close to base tier, the humans ought to not be much stronger than their End of Freeza Arc selves. This would likely be somewhere in the hundred thousands battle power-wise for Kuririn, though it's highly debatable for the others. Yamcha in particular shouldn't be much to talk about compared to the main two and Chaozu is such a non-factor he didn't even show up.

...Discuss....XD

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Great post. I'd agree with almost everything I think.

 

[Pyro]

Krill only showed up as support. He said himself he had no faith in his own power so it shouldn't be a factor. And Tenshinhan later went to watch Vegeta fight just to see the androids killed, so we can see his motivation for showing up to begin with.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

OP: TLDR

Personally, I use Gero's evidence and have Gohan+Ten+Krillin=Weighted Piccolo (Piccolo gets 50x a boost by throwing off his weights at this point)
This brings humans level to a few millions of units each.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I actually agree, plus there’s the Kaioken argument and the narrator saying no human could withstand 100x Earth’s Gravity, what caps out the humans at the tens of thousands.

OP: TLDR

Personally, I use Gero's evidence and have Gohan+Ten+Krillin=Weighted Piccolo (Piccolo gets 50x a boost by throwing off his weights at this point)
This brings humans level to a few millions of units each.

TL;DR is Piccolo’s power is the bulk of Gero’s plan and common sense would scale the humans down based on ineffectivity of solo training.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

plus there’s the Kaioken argument and the narrator saying no human could withstand 100x Earth’s Gravity, what caps out the humans at the tens of thousands.

That's one part I wouldn't place much stock in for power evaluation. Kuririn being considered of use against Freeza makes anything lower than the hundred thousands seem sketchy, or at the very least leagues above the likes of Monster Zarbon considering how Vegeta viewed an alliance with him. That said, the humans' ultimate potential shouldn't cap out at just the ten thousands, and it's safe to say Ten realised most of his and Yamcha at least a good portion of it from Kaio's training.

The part about 100x gravity can't really be taken into account as a solid power indicator when physiological factors don't correlate entirely linearly with Ki, unless we adhere to Base Kid Trunks being weaker than Ginyu and Pre-Rosat Base Future Trunks being far lower than that

 

[ahill1]

Good, well backed up and thought out analysis.

While I agree that the main arguments upping the earthlings to the millions or even 50% Freeza's level isn't strong due to reasons already stated, Gero at least evaluated Yamcha as a good source of energy and we both agreeing that Gero is at least reaching 100,000,000 and that his absorptions work through addition, that'd at least buff Yamcha to an ammount relevant enough when adding to Gero's powers, and I'd argue that couldn't be countered with Gero's estimations not being trustworthy, as in this case he isn't really comparing himself to anyone else. And while it's true that both androids saw Yamcha as Goku initially, with Gero estimating Goku not to have progressed that much, Gero had already been punched by an apparent full-effort base Goku when saying what he believed about Goku's progress, so there's a wide room for a strength increase in regards to his estimations, I'd say.

In such case, maybe placing Yamcha and therefore the other earthlings at the high millions or even tens of millions makes sense?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] Being of any use doesn’t have to mean he can fight Freeza by himself, that’s Vegeta’s job and perhaps Gohan’s. All he has to do is have Vegeta’s back during the fight.

Vegeta was actually nothing compared to Freeza when he declined a team up with Zarbon, so Kuririn being held in a higher regard doesn’t mean anything when those are basically two different Vegetas.

I don’t think the gravity feats are comparable here. One is a character not being used to it’s effects in spite of having the power to do so, the other is about a character being unable to ever master such level of Gravity.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Vegeta didn't talk about himself though. He said Freeza can't be defeated by teaming-up with the likes of Zarbon.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Being of any use doesn’t have to mean he can fight Freeza by himself, that’s Vegeta’s job and perhaps Gohan’s. All he has to do is have Vegeta’s back during the fight.

Indeed, but how's he supposed to help out if he's that far behind the other two? Vegeta didn't seem to treat him as a liability, so he places some value in him and the "Kuririn has the Kienzan" argument doesn't hold much weight when Vegeta can use a similar technique. We've also seen how relatively small a gap it can take to oneshot someone so, even with good teamwork, Kuririn would be little more than a meatshield if he's as low as you imply, which I doubt was Vegeta's first idea for him.
Vegeta would expect to be spearheading the attack, yes. He was also at a disadvantage against 1st form Freeza so even with Gohan's help, it's unlikely they'd accomplish much against a stronger Freeza if Kuririn was irrelevant to either of them.

I don’t think the gravity feats are comparable here. One is a character not being used to it’s effects in spite of having the power to do so, the other is about a character being unable to ever master such level of Gravity.

Toriyama still stated that there's a limit to physical strength and that Saiyan physiology makes them naturally suited for combat. Gravity resistance falls under the physical category, so it still wouldn't be the most accurate indicator of linear Ki progression. Hell, 100x gravity was still enough for SSJ Vegeta to work up quite a sweat in the Boo Arc.

While I agree that the main arguments upping the earthlings to the millions or even 50% Freeza's level isn't strong due to reasons already stated, Gero at least evaluated Yamcha as a good source of energy

Whilst you'll later cover what I'm going to say, Gero didn't expect Goku to make any major increases after the Saiyan Arc. Alongside that, there's only a handful of people Gero is aware of on Earth who's power even surpasses the 1k threshold, so Yamcha being considered a good source of energy is vague at best.

And while it's true that both androids saw Yamcha as Goku initially, with Gero estimating Goku not to have progressed that much, Gero had already been punched by an apparent full-effort base Goku when saying what he believed about Goku's progress, so there's a wide room for a strength increase in regards to his estimations, I'd say.

That was after Gero had detected Yamcha though. Whilst you could say Gero's lack of reaction to Base Goku's power would suggest it wasn't out of Gero's estimations, that just seems inconsistent with the idea of Goku no longer being capable of making sudden increases by Gero's standard (32k to 3mil+ from 4 years of Earth training sounds like anything but a steady increase) and even if taking it into account, that still makes the room for Gero's estimations anywhere between ~10k and the low millions. Given Yamcha's state of mind going into the battle and the events distracting him from intense training I mentioned before, I'd say there's a lot more supporting him being closer to the low-end of that range than the high-end.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

I'll spit some newbness but the whole Tien vs Semi Cell thing disproves these theories. The humans wouldn't get out of bed if they would not be a match for Frieza.

 

[Pyro]

If that was the case, Krillin would be a monster in the Boo Saga since he went with everybody to encounter Majin Poops.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If that was the case, Krillin would be a monster in the Boo Saga since he went with everybody to encounter Majin Poops.

To be fair on that comparison, Kuririn didn't know they'd be fighting anyone of worth and immediately decided it was time to turn back as soon as he got a whiff of Dabura.

Not that I'd agree with the "they showed up" defence, but that's far from the most apt comparison.

 

[Pyro]

Fair enough, but Krillin being present for any situation really isn't an indicator of the level of threat the opponent poses or his own strength. He goes to everything whether he's strong enough to matter or not. It's always been his role as the Tristan/Tea of Dragon Ball. Him just showing up isn't evidence that he's powerful enough to make a difference.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] The fact Vegeta knows the Kienzan doesn’t mean he can use it effectively, he’d be looked in combat and with Freeza having his guard up against him. On the other hand, Freeza would hardly be expecting an attack from behind, or be prepared for it.

Plus it’s not just the Kienzan, but any attack overall: See how Kuririn himself helped Goku against Freeza.

Group attacks are more effective than solo ones when well coordened - 17 thought the Z Fighters could overwhelm 18 together, Zarbon and Dodoria could arguably defeat Vegeta together, Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn almost killed Nappa…


I don’t understand how this means they can’t correlate. Saiyans have a tougher physiology coming from a Planet with 10x Earth’s Gravity, so they are more prone to mastering high gravity levels than humans. Gravity training was a well regarded training method back then, so it does correlate with their power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The fact Vegeta knows the Kienzan doesn’t mean he can use it effectively, he’d be looked in combat and with Freeza having his guard up against him. On the other hand, Freeza would hardly be expecting an attack from behind, or be prepared for it.

The question is, how would that be accomplished when 1st form Freeza already had a significant edge over Vegeta? Even with Gohan's help, it seems unlikely they'd be able to keep Freeza at bay.

Plus it’s not just the Kienzan, but any attack overall: See how Kuririn himself helped Goku against Freeza.

His only use in that portion was giving his Ki to Piccolo, which amounted in just one surprise attack that scarcely phased Freeza overall.

Group attacks are more effective than solo ones when well coordened - 17 thought the Z Fighters could overwhelm 18 together, Zarbon and Dodoria could arguably defeat Vegeta together, Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn almost killed Nappa…

Indeed they can, though in 2/3 of those examples the individually weaker party wasn't too far behind their opponents. The #18 VS Z-Warriors would have been a 4-5 VS 1 situation wherein 3 of those involved were just within stomping range for #18, whilst Dodoria and Zarbon individually were likely as strong as the Daizenshuu stated as 22k and 23k respectively (Dodoria didn't note their powers being surpassed from Zarbon's 22k reading of Vegeta).
To say Gohan, Piccolo and Kuririn almost killed Nappa would be quite the exaggeration, considering not only did we see how effective (or lack thereof) Gohan's part would have been in the team combo, but Nappa never found any part of the team effort worth getting angry over until getting knocked back by Gohan's rage boost.

I don’t understand how this means they can’t correlate. Saiyans have a tougher physiology coming from a Planet with 10x Earth’s Gravity, so they are more prone to mastering high gravity levels than humans. Gravity training was a well regarded training method back then, so it does correlate with their power.

It does correlate to some degree, but not 100% linearly. Goku spent almost the entirety of his life on Earth, yet he seemed to move fairly well on Kaio's during his arrival without the weighted clothing and I highly doubt his Snake Way run would've had him surpassing Raditz just yet. By comparison, Yamcha described the gravity as so intense he could barely run upon his arrival, at which point he should've been somewhat stronger than his Saiyan Arc self.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The question is, how would that be accomplished when 1st form Freeza already had a significant edge over Vegeta? Even with Gohan's help, it seems unlikely they'd be able to keep Freeza at bay.

How significant is it, though? He did hold Freeza down, even if he was strained for it. Is that not similar to his fight with #18, where he could’ve also won with external help?

In his statement Vegeta says Gohan has powers he’s not even aware of, and he had acknowledged in the Saiyan Arc hybrids are more powerful than pure bloods. Granted Vegeta thought of himself as a Super Saiyan and was shocked to see Gohan surpass him, but Vegeta should at least expect Gohan to be near him with his power fully unlocked.

It’s also likely Vegeta was merely bluffing given how he earlier admitted they could only beat Freeza if he were immortal:

His only use in that portion was giving his Ki to Piccolo, which amounted in just one surprise attack that scarcely phased Freeza overall.

It wasn’t just about phasing Freeza, but also about buying time. There was also his blast that saved Piccolo. Just image if that was a Kienzan…

Indeed they can, though in 2/3 of those examples the individually weaker party wasn't too far behind their opponents. The #18 VS Z-Warriors would have been a 4-5 VS 1 situation wherein 3 of those involved were just within stomping range for #18, whilst Dodoria and Zarbon individually were likely as strong as the Daizenshuu stated as 22k and 23k respectively (Dodoria didn't note their powers being surpassed from Zarbon's 22k reading of Vegeta).
To say Gohan, Piccolo and Kuririn almost killed Nappa would be quite the exaggeration, considering not only did we see how effective (or lack thereof) Gohan's part would have been in the team combo, but Nappa never found any part of the team effort worth getting angry over until getting knocked back by Gohan's rage boost.

Well, Gohan wasn’t 100% sure they could beat Freeza for if you think Vegeta was that much below Freeza. This also adds to the idea of Vegeta’s bluff since he acted like they could surely take on his expectations of 2nd form Freeza.

He was also pissed off from Kuririn’s Kienzan and Piccolo’s blast to his back, showing the effectiveness of team works and sneak attacks once again. That’s an interesting observation, though. Would you think this implies Gohan’s kick and Piccolo’s blast were > Tenshinhan’s Kikoho? He just laughed it away in spite of being taken off guard.

It does correlate to some degree, but not 100% linearly. Goku spent almost the entirety of his life on Earth, yet he seemed to move fairly well on Kaio's during his arrival without the weighted clothing and I highly doubt his Snake Way run would've had him surpassing Raditz just yet. By comparison, Yamcha described the gravity as so intense he could barely run upon his arrival, at which point he should've been somewhat stronger than his Saiyan Arc self.

The way I see it, it’s not only about having the Ki, but also how your body handles it. Goku might have a lesser Power Level than Yamcha, but his experience with weighted training would make his muscles more apt to the Gravity. The several of examples of characters showing higher speed, strength or even stamina than others who are comparable or stronger in terms of raw Ki only further corroborates this.

On the other hand, the human inability to ever master 100G would imply they can’t compete with Saiyan physiology, what means their bodies wouldn’t be capable of holding as much Ki either.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How significant is it, though? He did hold Freeza down, even if he was strained for it. Is that not similar to his fight with #18, where he could’ve also won with external help?

In the #18 case, Trunks wasn't too far behind Vegeta and Piccolo in turn likely wasn't overly far behind Trunks. Meanwhile, Vegeta was clearly far ahead of both Gohan and Kuririn, even having no qualms with being about to face them head on just before Freeza arrived. Kuririn even refers to Vegeta as having broken through a new ceiling and is shocked at how strong he's become.

Not only was Vegeta breathing quite heavily after the short exchange and putting a lot of tension on himself doing so, but he was expecting to fight a significantly stronger Freeza and with Zarbon as a reference, would be completely helpless against him even if he'd been stronger than 1st form Freeza. That sort of gap seems a fair bit bigger than against #18.

In his statement Vegeta says Gohan has powers he’s not even aware of, and he had acknowledged in the Saiyan Arc hybrids are more powerful than pure bloods. Granted Vegeta thought of himself as a Super Saiyan and was shocked to see Gohan surpass him, but Vegeta should at least expect Gohan to be near him with his power fully unlocked.

Vegeta has seen first hand how Gohan's power can increase drastically when angry or desperate, so it isn't really much of an indicator about his current self when Vegeta was mainly talking about potential in the latter part of his sentence. Whilst he could've factored that in, that would also mean Gohan would be far less optimistic than he was when considering Vegeta's words about their chances.

That said, it's also worth noting that the part about Gohan's inner-strength is the only point of distinction Vegeta gives between the two, which would suggest Kuririn is on a comparable level to a calm Gohan.

It’s also likely Vegeta was merely bluffing given how he earlier admitted they could only beat Freeza if he were immortal:

Possible, but doubtful considering Gohan also seemed to put some stock in Vegeta's claim. Granted, this was before Vegeta talked about Freeza's transformation and Vegeta bluffing would be in line with his later display against Gero, so perhaps...
Still, I'd prefer to think Vegeta's evaluation was more than just a ruse. After all, he was clearly far stronger after his nap and didn't have much time to judge his new power when immediately concerned with the Dragon Balls and his wish, so it may be it took him a while to catch on to his own strength. Kuririn and Gohan weren't aware of how much stronger they'd gotten until Vegeta pointed it out, and whilst Gohan is inexperienced, Kuririn should be on a similar level of martial experience to Vegeta.

It wasn’t just about phasing Freeza, but also about buying time.

Hard to buy time or stall in this scenario though.

I
He was also pissed off from Kuririn’s Kienzan and Piccolo’s blast to his back, showing the effectiveness of team works and sneak attacks once again.

Clearly not as much though, considering Gohan's kick was decisive enough for Nappa to immediately want to kill him.

That’s an interesting observation, though. Would you think this implies Gohan’s kick and Piccolo’s blast were > Tenshinhan’s Kikoho? He just laughed it away in spite of being taken off guard.

Probably not. He did find it noteworthy enough to put his guard up against and still managed to get bruised and bloodied about as much as both those off-guard attacks.

The way I see it, it’s not only about having the Ki, but also how your body handles it.

I'd agree somewhat to this when considering characters still train their bodies even late into the series rather than just all moving to image training and meditation.

Still, we have Toriyama's statement from the SEG when it comes to Ki and physical strength:

There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”.

That would still be applicable to the humans still being capable of surpassing the 90k threshold. Then again, Yamcha and Ten's training seemed to primarily consist of gravity training at a far inferior level, so take that how you will. I would also bring up Piccolo's plot hax Kaio GAINZ as, whilst not fully applicable to the humans due to Piccolo having far greater potential than them, this shouldn't be possible from gravity training alone and most of the shots of him training mainly show him meditating to strengthen his Ki. It's safe to say the humans would be able to do the same when hitting their physical limits or getting as much as they can out of their level of gravity training.

Goku might have a lesser Power Level than Yamcha, but his experience with weighted training would make his muscles more apt to the Gravity.

Yamcha had seemingly a year or so training with weighted clothing too. Granted, that's nowhere near as long as Goku, though it's still worth noting Yamcha is no stranger to weighted training. It could even be inferred that Yamcha may have been training with greater levels of weight, considering the necessity of far surpassing Goku's previous peak that was accomplished.

As an older and more extreme example, there's Roshi being absolutely blown away by Goku and Kuririn moving boulders, yet his level of Ki allows him to be equal to the former's peak at the time and significantly above the latter.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

In the #18 case, Trunks wasn't too far behind Vegeta and Piccolo in turn likely wasn't overly far behind Trunks. Meanwhile, Vegeta was clearly far ahead of both Gohan and Kuririn, even having no qualms with being about to face them head on just before Freeza arrived. Kuririn even refers to Vegeta as having broken through a new ceiling and is shocked at how strong he's become.

Not only was Vegeta breathing quite heavily after the short exchange and putting a lot of tension on himself doing so, but he was expecting to fight a significantly stronger Freeza and with Zarbon as a reference, would be completely helpless against him even if he'd been stronger than 1st form Freeza. That sort of gap seems a fair bit bigger than against #18.

I believe it’s worth noting it wasn’t just Gohan and Kuririn’s powers that were in constant growth, Vegeta also told Jeice that he was “Steadily drawing near to the SSJ” and maintained this opinion upon fighting Freeza:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!”

Vegeta has seen first hand how Gohan's power can increase drastically when angry or desperate, so it isn't really much of an indicator about his current self when Vegeta was mainly talking about potential in the latter part of his sentence. Whilst he could've factored that in, that would also mean Gohan would be far less optimistic than he was when considering Vegeta's words about their chances.

That said, it's also worth noting that the part about Gohan's inner-strength is the only point of distinction Vegeta gives between the two, which would suggest Kuririn is on a comparable level to a calm Gohan.

Gohan was having his dormant power drawn out though. All this hidden strength that only manifests through hard feelings would be surfacing now, no matter his emotional state.

Possible, but doubtful considering Gohan also seemed to put some stock in Vegeta's claim. Granted, this was before Vegeta talked about Freeza's transformation and Vegeta bluffing would be in line with his later display against Gero, so perhaps...
Still, I'd prefer to think Vegeta's evaluation was more than just a ruse. After all, he was clearly far stronger after his nap and didn't have much time to judge his new power when immediately concerned with the Dragon Balls and his wish, so it may be it took him a while to catch on to his own strength. Kuririn and Gohan weren't aware of how much stronger they'd gotten until Vegeta pointed it out, and whilst Gohan is inexperienced, Kuririn should be on a similar level of martial experience to Vegeta.

As you pointed out, Gohan didn’t know Freeza could transfor, plus he wasn’t even entirely sure if they could do it. Freeza also did say Vegeta wasn’t bluffing after the grappling, but he didn’t know Vegeta had knowledge on his transformations.

You could argue that, but that’s somewhat hard to prove. Unlike with Kuririn and Gohan there never is a moment where Vegeta notices he’s stronger than before - He just wakes up, gets pissed at not being immortal saying Freeza will kill them and just faces Freeza head on.

Hard to buy time or stall in this scenario though.

Well, in this case there’s Gohan and Kuririn holding off and almost killing 2nd form Freeza without any help from Vegeta whatsoever.

Clearly not as much though, considering Gohan's kick was decisive enough for Nappa to immediately want to kill him.

More like accumulated rage from being taken off guard three times.

I'd agree somewhat to this when considering characters still train their bodies even late into the series rather than just all moving to image training and meditation.

Still, we have Toriyama's statement from the SEG when it comes to Ki and physical strength:
There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”.
That would still be applicable to the humans still being capable of surpassing the 90k threshold. Then again, Yamcha and Ten's training seemed to primarily consist of gravity training at a far inferior level, so take that how you will. I would also bring up Piccolo's plot hax Kaio GAINZ as, whilst not fully applicable to the humans due to Piccolo having far greater potential than them, this shouldn't be possible from gravity training alone and most of the shots of him training mainly show him meditating to strengthen his Ki. It's safe to say the humans would be able to do the same when hitting their physical limits or getting as much as they can out of their level of gravity training.

I’d beg to differ in this occasion. Given other pieces of evidence (Such as Toriyama saying he came up with SSJ because he didn’t know how to make Goku stronger or Daizenshuu 7 saying transformations and fusion were the bulk of their power ups post Namek) that the means used to power up further than the natural limitations of the body weren’t accessible to the humans. They had no transformations, fusion or teachers, having to relegate themselves to the inferior solo training on Earth. They might have honed their techniques to absurd levels (As seen with Tenshinhan’s Shin Kikoho), but their raw power isn’t relevant in the least.

I don’t believe in Piccolo’s hax gains anymore.

Yamcha had seemingly a year or so training with weighted clothing too. Granted, that's nowhere near as long as Goku, though it's still worth noting Yamcha is no stranger to weighted training. It could even be inferred that Yamcha may have been training with greater levels of weight, considering the necessity of far surpassing Goku's previous peak that was accomplished.

As an older and more extreme example, there's Roshi being absolutely blown away by Goku and Kuririn moving boulders, yet his level of Ki allows him to be equal to the former's peak at the time and significantly above the latter.

In this case, Goku’s advantage might derivate from his origins on Planet Vegeta, depending on the source he spend between days and 3 years in Planet Vegeta, whose Gravity was the same as that of Kaio’s Planet.

But explain me your view here, CC. Is there a in universe reason for why Goku is faring better than Yamcha here? Or is it just about? And doesn’t the fact Yamcha still mastered it nonetheless still corroborates my point? He could still find the strength to make 10G easy, while the same can’t be said for any human with 100G. Power may not be tied to Gravity, but that doesn’t make the opposite invalid.

Reading the fight, it’s pretty clear that Goku had a physical upperhand, and Roshi had to counter by pulling several different techniques. It was skill that closed this gap, not Ki, a concept still rather primitive in the series. Plus did Roshi ever imply he couldn’t push the boulder himself?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Its obvious that they are :bitch tier