How powerful are the Cell Arc humans? (Version 3289 or something)

[Captain Cadaver]

Tenshinhan = base Android arc Goku since they both dodged Gero’s eye beam with a crazy amount of effort. Simplest explanation is that they are the same

I would view that as decent evidence, but what of this?

Spoiler

Kuririn, who should be superior to Ten, is in awe at how fast Gero's eye lasers are. It could be argued Gero put more effort into his 2nd usage, though that wouldn't really make sense when Gero doesn't have Ki that he can easily control in effort.

Kuririn doesn't think he can ever reach Ginyu Tokusentai levels (And logically shouldn't reach Nail or Post 100G Goku's power)

Yet he was able to get to a point far above 23k not long after, probably already ranging close to 30k. Vegeta also included Kuririn as someone who's power was steadily rising and, whilst specifying Gohan in particular as having rising strength, he didn't suggest the half-Saiyan was getting a massively greater boost than Kuririn was.
I wouldn't say there's anything illogical about Kuririn surpassing Nail. Whilst the average Namekian is far above the average human, their potential doesn't seem to suggested to be too different. For example, Piccolo's significant advantage over the humans in the Saiyan Arc is little different to how it was prior to Raditz's arrival and DBO suggests the average potential of Earthlings and Namekians is more or less the same. More importantly, Kuririn getting his potential unlocked at not even the peak of what it could be was already above what the likes of Nappa gained from decades of battle, so I wouldn't say the whole Saiyans >> Namekians >> Earthlings in potential is as clear cut as it seems. There are exceptional individuals amongst all those races, with it being made apparent Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha probably have the highest potential of any human fighters in the series (outside of the special case that is Oob and maybe Yajirobe, and of course the legend that is Manly GAINZ Roshi ).

 

[Fantastische Hure]

kuririn also thought he was at his limits before his potential was unlocked

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yet he was able to get to a point far above 23k not long after, probably already ranging close to 30k. Vegeta also included Kuririn as someone who's power was steadily rising and, whilst specifying Gohan in particular as having rising strength, he didn't suggest the half-Saiyan was getting a massively greater boost than Kuririn was.

That's something I thought as well. I don't see a problem with Gohan's power raising faster given how Vegeta emphasises he's got more potential, but it's definitely possible Kuririn underestimated how strong he could become. There isn't much to tell he grew far beyond 23k, though.

I wouldn't say there's anything illogical about Kuririn surpassing Nail. Whilst the average Namekian is far above the average human, their potential doesn't seem to suggested to be too different. For example, Piccolo's significant advantage over the humans in the Saiyan Arc is little different to how it was prior to Raditz's arrival and DBO suggests the average potential of Earthlings and Namekians is more or less the same. More importantly, Kuririn getting his potential unlocked at not even the peak of what it could be was already above what the likes of Nappa gained from decades of battle, so I wouldn't say the whole Saiyans >> Namekians >> Earthlings in potential is as clear cut as it seems. There are exceptional individuals amongst all those races, with it being made apparent Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha probably have the highest potential of any human fighters in the series (outside of the special case that is Oob and maybe Yajirobe, and of course the legend that is Manly GAINZ Roshi ).

I think there is. Average Warrior Namekians being much stronger than humans should be a given for who's more gifted granted how they live under similar conditions.

The humans benfited from much better training than Piccolo though. Sparring with each other and learning with Kami, while Piccolo spent half of his time buzy watching Gohan and training alone, only really sparring after Gohan's survival test was done. We saw from Vegeta's Namek gains that decades of battle don't necessarily take you to your limits, specially when you're so strong and hardly anything can challenge you. As far as other sources go, the Dragon Books imply the humans fall quite a lot behind Namekians and Saiyans:

Spoiler

Well Guru did say Kuririn had a lot of potential for an Earthling, but Nail was also Namek's best warrior and arguably had his potential unlocked, otherwise I could definitely see Kuririn surpassing the 40k line by a good margin. Not too much though since 60k Goku is supposed to be on Saiyan limits.

 

[SSJ2]

Limits in Dragon Ball are shown to be surpassed time and time again. If 60k was supposed to be the Saiyan limit then why did he get stronger than that? He was already at 90k, and his Zenkai brought him into the millions. So much for that limit.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

There isn't much to tell he grew far beyond 23k, though.

I'd say Vegeta bothering to include him in the conversation rather than write him off as trash says a lot, not to mention the V-Jump entry of him being at 75k.

As far as other sources go, the Dragon Books imply the humans fall quite a lot behind Namekians and Saiyans:

Spoiler

Whilst that's interesting, the fact it specifically says battle power rather than potential makes it pretty dubious. After all, humans are pretty pathetic as a race when viewing the average as at 5 despite having a population in the billions. It also seems off the Dragon Clan aren't given even one star despite having a good amount of potential for Ki growth, even if not necessarily suited for battle.

Well Guru did say Kuririn had a lot of potential for an Earthling, but Nail was also Namek's best warrior and arguably had his potential unlocked, otherwise I could definitely see Kuririn surpassing the 40k line by a good margin. Not too much though since 60k Goku is supposed to be on Saiyan limits.

I think it could be down to the difference in experience. Kuririn's power slowly rising seemed to be from experiencing several battles in such a short time, whereas we have no idea if Nail ever fought anyone prior to Freeza. It could be argued battle allows for the true benefits of the unlocking to be brought about.

I wouldn't say Goku apparently being at regular Saiyan limits says much, considering Kuririn should logically have surpassed what ought to be the limits of conventional training for humans from getting his potential unlocked.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'd say Vegeta bothering to include him in the conversation rather than write him off as trash says a lot, not to mention the V-Jump entry of him being at 75k.

Given how Vegeta was trying to intimidate Freeza with the idea they were all getting stronger, I don’t see why he would leave Kuririn out.

Whilst that's interesting, the fact it specifically says battle power rather than potential makes it pretty dubious. After all, humans are pretty pathetic as a race when viewing the average as at 5 despite having a population in the billions. It also seems off the Dragon Clan aren't given even one star despite having a good amount of potential for Ki growth, even if not necessarily suited for battle.

I think this goes back to my older point about conditions. The lifestyle on Namek isn’t very different from that of an average farmer’s, it’s not like they’d have any stressing conditions like higher Gravity that makes them stronger; Namekians were naturally born with higher powers.

I think it could be down to the difference in experience. Kuririn's power slowly rising seemed to be from experiencing several battles in such a short time, whereas we have no idea if Nail ever fought anyone prior to Freeza. It could be argued battle allows for the true benefits of the unlocking to be brought about.

I can see that happening, but then things get kinda dubious. Do you think not fighting wouldn’t allow the potential unlock to be completed? Or fighting just speeds up the process? If the later is the case, then there’s the question of when exactly Nail had his own unlocked.

I would say Goku apparently being at regular Saiyan limits says much, considering Kuririn should logically have surpassed what ought to be the limits of conventional training for humans from getting his potential unlocked.

There’s still quite a gap between humans limits and Saiyans limits though. Not to mention Goku needed 100x Gravity to surpass those limits, and the narrator says no human could survive it.

[mention]SSJ2[/mention] Kuririn doesn’t get any Zenkais, transformations or any plot relevance requiring him to be so strong though.

 

[SSJ2]

That's not my point. The very fact that you are arguing that a human cannot surpass a "Saiyan limit", when Saiyans themselves are shown to surpass that limit is a little contradictory. If it truly was a limit then it should have been surpassed by no Saiyan. When Krillin was powered up by Guru he had already thought he was at the maximum of his potential, but that was clearly proven wrong. Limits in Dragon Ball are always surpassed, it doesn't matter what race you are.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Tenshinhan = base Android arc Goku since they both dodged Gero’s eye beam with a crazy amount of effort. Simplest explanation is that they are the same

I would view that as decent evidence, but what of this?

Spoiler

Kuririn, who should be superior to Ten, is in awe at how fast Gero's eye lasers are. It could be argued Gero put more effort into his 2nd usage, though that wouldn't really make sense when Gero doesn't have Ki that he can easily control in effort.

Kuririn doesn't think he can ever reach Ginyu Tokusentai levels (And logically shouldn't reach Nail or Post 100G Goku's power)

Yet he was able to get to a point far above 23k not long after, probably already ranging close to 30k. Vegeta also included Kuririn as someone who's power was steadily rising and, whilst specifying Gohan in particular as having rising strength, he didn't suggest the half-Saiyan was getting a massively greater boost than Kuririn was.
I wouldn't say there's anything illogical about Kuririn surpassing Nail. Whilst the average Namekian is far above the average human, their potential doesn't seem to suggested to be too different. For example, Piccolo's significant advantage over the humans in the Saiyan Arc is little different to how it was prior to Raditz's arrival and DBO suggests the average potential of Earthlings and Namekians is more or less the same. More importantly, Kuririn getting his potential unlocked at not even the peak of what it could be was already above what the likes of Nappa gained from decades of battle, so I wouldn't say the whole Saiyans >> Namekians >> Earthlings in potential is as clear cut as it seems. There are exceptional individuals amongst all those races, with it being made apparent Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha probably have the highest potential of any human fighters in the series (outside of the special case that is Oob and maybe Yajirobe, and of course the legend that is Manly GAINZ Roshi ).

Isn’t it Tien that said that? Also piccolo probably didn’t dodge it due to distance

 

[ahill1]

Kuririn tops at 150,000 while Tenshinhan at his highest is as strong as Captain Ginyu. Yamcha I think didn't even reach the 100k mark. That's already mad impressive for Earthlings though.

What made you change your position on this?

Krillin at 150k doesn't sound right, but the rest of the humans are irrelevant I guess.

I think there isn't much evidence either way, so I'm willing to take V-Jump's take on Kuririn's battle power, which is 75k at the beginning of their battle with Freeza. Add more 3~5 years of training and no solid exposition on his improvements, I think doubling that amount seems fair... I could maybe give his training a higher benefit and push him to 200k, 300k (which is more or less the jump in power I see Kuririn undergoing in his past Earthly trainings for the Budôkais), but more than that is unwarranted imo.

As for the other earthlings, so long as Tenshinhan is some solid amount inferior to Kuririn with Yamcha being even lower still, I'm fine.

 

[SSJ2]

Kuririn tops at 150,000 while Tenshinhan at his highest is as strong as Captain Ginyu. Yamcha I think didn't even reach the 100k mark. That's already mad impressive for Earthlings though.

What made you change your position on this?

Krillin at 150k doesn't sound right, but the rest of the humans are irrelevant I guess.

I think there isn't much evidence either way, so I'm willing to take V-Jump's take on Kuririn's battle power, which is 75k at the beginning of their battle with Freeza. Add more 3~5 years of training and no solid exposition on his improvements, I think doubling that amount seems fair... I could maybe give his training a higher benefit and push him to 200k, 300k (which is more or less the jump in power I see Kuririn undergoing in his past Earthly trainings for the Budôkais), but more than that is unwarranted imo.

As for the other earthlings, so long as Tenshinhan is some solid amount inferior to Kuririn with Yamcha being even lower still, I'm fine.

Congratulations.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's not my point. The very fact that you are arguing that a human cannot surpass a "Saiyan limit", when Saiyans themselves are shown to surpass that limit is a little contradictory. If it truly was a limit then it should have been surpassed by no Saiyan. When Krillin was powered up by Guru he had already thought he was at the maximum of his potential, but that was clearly proven wrong. Limits in Dragon Ball are always surpassed, it doesn't matter what race you are.

Vegeta did think Goku was a Super Saiyan and bragged to Jeice that he was on his way to become a Super Saiyan just based on them surpassing those limits, so it seems they were supposed to be significant at the time. You could argue Kuririn surpassed it afterwards, how quickly Kuririn’s power fades into irrelevance after Namek I don’t see much reason for his power to make huge increases.

By the way SSJ2, what do you think these “Saiyan limits” were meant to be back then? Initially it seems like surpassing this threshold is indication of becoming a Super Saiyan. Is it like their physical limits? Just something based on the strongest known Saiyan from the past perhaps?

 

[SSJ2]

That's not my point. The very fact that you are arguing that a human cannot surpass a "Saiyan limit", when Saiyans themselves are shown to surpass that limit is a little contradictory. If it truly was a limit then it should have been surpassed by no Saiyan. When Krillin was powered up by Guru he had already thought he was at the maximum of his potential, but that was clearly proven wrong. Limits in Dragon Ball are always surpassed, it doesn't matter what race you are.

Vegeta did think Goku was a Super Saiyan and bragged to Jeice that he was on his way to become a Super Saiyan just based on them surpassing those limits, so it seems they were supposed to be significant at the time. You could argue Kuririn surpassed it afterwards, how quickly Kuririn’s power fades into irrelevance after Namek I don’t see much reason for his power to make huge increases.

By the way SSJ2, what do you think these “Saiyan limits” were meant to be back then? Initially it seems like surpassing this threshold is indication of becoming a Super Saiyan. Is it like their physical limits? Just something based on the strongest known Saiyan from the past perhaps?

I'd have to read Namek again to remember the exact quote on limits. We have to keep in mind that Vegeta is really in no position to be speaking about Super Saiyan or Saiyan limits. On Earth we are shown that Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan in existence at 18,000. How could he know what the limits of a Saiyan are if he has never seen someone more powerful than himself? And as we learn about his assumptions on Super Saiyan, he had no idea how it actually worked. Vegeta thought Goku was a Super Saiyan on several occasions when in fact he was wrong. Vegeta also thought of himself as a Super Saiyan against Freeza, something he was desperately trying to believe in his mind. We obviously know that all of Vegeta's claims were proven to be incorrect. 60k was proven to be surpassed by 3 Saiyans within the same arc. Vegeta's assumptions about Super Saiyan were proven to be wrong several times. The Namek arc is full of assumptions from Vegeta.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

[mention]SSJ2[/mention] And, to add to all that, Vegeta also thought his final Zenkai on Namek was his limit.

As for the other earthlings, so long as Tenshinhan is some solid amount inferior to Kuririn with Yamcha being even lower still, I'm fine.

I'd say you could still have Ten close to Kuririn in the Cell Arc, seeing as how without plot to buff him up, there really shouldn't be much more improvement he can make after this from just Earthly training.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea. I just think it is foolish to hold firm to these limits in Dragon Ball when they are always based on assumptions. As I said before, nearly every limit in Dragon Ball is shown to be surpassed.

 

[SSJ2]

Hell, why did Krillin ever become stronger than the ordinary human level that Roshi brought up many times in DB? Krillin is just an ordinary human himself yet he managed to surpass that.

Edit: That goes for any human in the series I guess. Somehow they surpassed human limitation. Limits can be broken.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ironically SSJ2, your point on the human limits/wall actually gave me a good insight on what these limits mean. They’re more like a conventional range established by lifestyle than their bodies. Few Humans and Saiyans have the opportunity to rise beyond ordinary levels.

Anyway, I don’t think limits are the ultimate wall in DBZ. The Z Fighters were always breaking their limits, but they had to evolve their methods: From training with martial artists to gods to Zenkais to transformations to fusion. Toriyama has acknowledged the existence of physical limits that can only be transcended with Ki, so I find it hard for Kuririn to manage very big improvements after Namek.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Anyway, I don’t think limits are the ultimate wall in DBZ. The Z Fighters were always breaking their limits, but they had to evolve their methods: From training with martial artists to gods to Zenkais to transformations to fusion. Toriyama has acknowledged the existence of physical limits that can only be transcended with Ki, so I find it hard for Kuririn to manage very big improvements after Namek.

Whilst that's true as to physical limits, to say Kuririn and co. didn't make huge gains after Namek would be assuming they didn't switch up aspects of their training or focus on physical training. Things like meditation and other Ki oriented training regimes seem to be just as effective in heightening Ki when the limits of physical strength are made. Take for example Goku training through meditation in Otherworld after he'd seemingly reached as far as the realm's physical training could take him or Piccolo only being shown training through meditation after the Rosat. It stands to reason the Earthlings would focus more on heightening their Ki through such spiritual methods after reaching their physical limits.

More to the point on what we're actually shown in the manga, how do you take Tenshinhan avoiding Gero's laser in the same panel Base Goku is shown to have difficulty dodging the attack, despite nobody noticing the affects of the heart virus in play yet? Do you chalk it up to some inconsistency and, if so, what would you use to validate that assumption?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Irrelevant tier all things considered. By Boo saga all the humans had effectively retired, with the strongest of them Krillin not even being on the radar.

 

[SSJ2]

Irrelevant tier all things considered. By Boo saga all the humans had effectively retired, with the strongest of them Krillin not even being on the radar.

Krillin and Yamcha were shown to be far stronger than Pikkon.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] But what kind of training would be that? They can refine their own techniques as Tenshinhan is shown to, but strengthening their bodies is a differ matter.

The Saiyans are shown to train their spirits in order to achieve new forms, humans are incapable of both things. They don’t have access to means like the Rosat or Afterlife, nor do they have any transformations that could enable their bodies to handle more power.

Honestly, I don’t see how one could say they dodged with equal effort. They just… dodged.