How powerful are the Cell Arc humans? (Version 3289 or something)

[Captain Cadaver]

Honestly, I don’t see how one could say they dodged with equal effort. They just… dodged.

Spoiler

Goku shows a clear tense expression on his face, not to mention the exclamation mark reaction and him ducking rather than doing something like a calm sidestep or something that wouldn't be an otherwise unnecessary movement. Everything points to this being something Base Goku needed some effort in dodging and Ten dodged it in the same timeframe. Compare this to final Zenkai Vegeta getting speeblitzed by a Freeza on par with a post-Zenkai Base Goku yet to use his full power.

 

[ahill1]

@SSJ2 And, to add to all that, Vegeta also thought his final Zenkai on Namek was his limit.

As for the other earthlings, so long as Tenshinhan is some solid amount inferior to Kuririn with Yamcha being even lower still, I'm fine.

I'd say you could still have Ten close to Kuririn in the Cell Arc, seeing as how without plot to buff him up, there really shouldn't be much more improvement he can make after this from just Earthly training.

True, fair point. What do you think about Tenshinhan being as strong as Captain Ginyu and Kuririn closing in on Kaioken Goku (180k) at their prime? Seems a fair estimation to me, they aren't as low as some ppl think, but they aren't reach millions and such high territory either...seems pretty moderate if you ask me.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For reasons I've covered above, Ten's speed feats would suggest he's at least above Final Zenkai Vegeta, considering nothing contradicts this speed feat of him being able to react to attacks in a similar timeframe to Base Goku.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] but Goku can’t sense Gero’s Ki and his firing the lasers would be a surprise, thus the exclamation marks. As for how Goku dodges it I don’t think it means anything since bending backwards would be something even harder than just stepping aside.

It also possible Tenshinhan’s third eye allowed him to see better than Goku there and react first.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver but Goku can’t sense Gero’s Ki and his firing the lasers would be a surprise, thus the exclamation marks.

He could still gauge the speed of the attack by enough to respond appropriately.

As for how Goku dodges it I don’t think it means anything since bending backwards would be something even harder than just stepping aside.

It was still a sudden reaction that lacks the finesse of some of his previous dodges against attacks he could easily react to. Comparing it to past feats, he tends to only dodge in such a way when flustered or not having much time to think (fighting Chichi, dodging Jheese's surprise Crusher Ball, etc.).

It also possible Tenshinhan’s third eye allowed him to see better than Goku there and react first.

Even if that were the case, we've seen in Part 1 that Tenshinhan's third eye advantage can be useless in aiding him if he's too far away from his opponent's level such as against Goku without his weights, a gap that both in terms of numerical battle powers and general tiering would be a far lower gap than that between, say, Ginyu and 1st form Freeza. The third eye can be taken into account for the feat, but it would still require Tenshinhan being in some range of Base Galu's level.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]captain strawberry[/mention] So he can gauge the speed of the beam after it’s fired but he barely has the time to react? And he’s still acting surprised?

Also Piccolo, who is much stronger than Tenshinhan, failed to dodge Gero’s lasers. Definitely sounds like the third eye should’ve played a factor here.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@captain strawberry So he can gauge the speed of the beam after it’s fired but he barely has the time to react? And he’s still acting surprised?

I'm saying that he could gauge the speed by enough to dodge it and should be able to judge its speed, whether that be to casually dodge if fast enough or (what actually happened) barely being able to dodge it.

Also Piccolo, who is much stronger than Tenshinhan, failed to dodge Gero’s lasers. Definitely sounds like the third eye should’ve played a factor here.

Piccolo was hit at point-blank range, whereas Ten and Galu had a decent distance from Gero. Ten also comments on the beam's speed after it hits Piccolo, suggesting Gero used a faster laser against Big Green (though it could be he was commenting on Gero casually dodging Piccolo's kick, but that's less likely due to the scene composition).

 

[SSJ2]

What does Piccolo mean by he distracted them with his "defeat"? Did he allow himself to be hit by the laser? Either way, Galu and Tenshinhan were further away from Gero than Piccolo was, so they should've had a better chance at dodging the attack.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering he only comments on the attacks lack of damage, it probably didn't have bearing on the outcome of his short scuffle with Gero. Then again, Piccolo's reactions shouldn't be affected by him suppressing his power, so it could be the whole thing was an act.

 

[SSJ2]

I'd be curious to know the original dialogue on that line. Viz is more or less saying it was an act.

 

[SSJ2]

Pretty much confirms what I thought.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Irrelevant tier all things considered. By Boo saga all the humans had effectively retired, with the strongest of them Krillin not even being on the radar.

Krillin and Yamcha were shown to be far stronger than Pikkon.

Pikkon is easily Moro tier.

 

[SSJ2]

Irrelevant tier all things considered. By Boo saga all the humans had effectively retired, with the strongest of them Krillin not even being on the radar.

Krillin and Yamcha were shown to be far stronger than Pikkon.

Pikkon is easily Moro tier.

Ah, I see your point now. They were so powerful that their tier became irrelevant. :mikey

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm saying that he could gauge the speed by enough to dodge it and should be able to judge its speed, whether that be to casually dodge if fast enough or (what actually happened) barely being able to dodge it.

Piccolo was hit at point-blank range, whereas Ten and Galu had a decent distance from Gero. Ten also comments on the beam's speed after it hits Piccolo, suggesting Gero used a faster laser against Big Green (though it could be he was commenting on Gero casually dodging Piccolo's kick, but that's less likely due to the scene composition).

Given the exclamation marks I doubt it. He wasn't expecting Gero to blast the city right there, so he was basically caught by surprise there.

Anyway CC, how strong you think this makes Tenshinhan? And what about the point you brought on how they shouldn't be much above their Namek selves? You think he left Kaio's planet in the millions already?

 

[ahill1]

I dunno, I always found basing Ten Shin Han's power on a measly panel in which he seemingly dodges Gero's beam in a similar fashion as base Goku to be pretty weak. It's too little and quick to actually assert anything imo and they likely weren't expecting Gero's laser to target that spot hence their reaction imo. If Gero was only planning to make the area a ghost one, would the attack even be powerful?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Given the exclamation marks I doubt it. He wasn't expecting Gero to blast the city right there, so he was basically caught by surprise there.

It's doubtful surprise would be the primary factor, since he and Ten seemed wary of what Gero was planning on the page prior just before the eye lasers were shot out. With a significant distance between them, I doubt there was enough for Goku to be completely caught off-guard.

Anyway CC, how strong you think this makes Tenshinhan?

Comparing it to a suppressed Goku still being around the level of a Freeza that could blitz Vegeta, most likely above Final Zenkai Vegeta at least.

And what about the point you brought on how they shouldn't be much above their Namek selves? You think he left Kaio's planet in the millions already?

This evidence has changed my mind on that. Ultimately, plot tends to dictate power more than the series' conventional ideas on limits (of which being broken is perhaps the franchise's core theme) and what we're shown definitely seems to suggest something contrary to them being tapped out after Kaio's training.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's doubtful surprise would be the primary factor, since he and Ten seemed wary of what Gero was planning on the page prior just before the eye lasers were shot out. With a significant distance between them, I doubt there was enough for Goku to be completely caught off-guard

Gero had implied he was going to destroy the city, and albeit wary it didn't seem like they expected him to shot at their direction.

This evidence has changed my mind on that. Ultimately, plot tends to dictate power more than the series' conventional ideas on limits (of which being broken is perhaps the franchise's core theme) and what we're shown definitely seems to suggest something contrary to them being tapped out after Kaio's training.
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I don't think that has ever happened. Characters often express frustation at apparent walls that rise and find a new way to become stronger, as contrived as they may be (e.g. zenakis, transformations, fusion, magical rooms where time flows slower). It's not something that happens out of nowhere, and to suggest Tenshinhan the biggest gains while training with Chaozu and having zero revelance to the plot is frankly absurd.