How powerful are the Cell Arc humans? (Version 3289 or something)

[Captain Cadaver]

I believe it’s worth noting it wasn’t just Gohan and Kuririn’s powers that were in constant growth, Vegeta also told Jeice that he was “Steadily drawing near to the SSJ” and maintained this opinion upon fighting Freeza:

Gohan was having his dormant power drawn out though. All this hidden strength that only manifests through hard feelings would be surfacing now, no matter his emotional state.

Indeed, though both have the same problem in believing the potential growth was being treat as a factor - how long would it take to achieve what would be necessary? They would still need to be powerful enough to survive against a transformed Freeza together for long enough that what potential needed to give them their chance possible, which would be doubtful if Gohan and Kuririn were still far too weak to do too much, especially when Vegeta was likely expecting a similar boost from Freeza to what Zarbon got and was already at a disadvantage prior.
Vegeta also lumped both Kuririn and Gohan into the same camp as powers that kept rising, so everything you said about Gohan can be applied to Kuririn to a somewhat lesser extent, with it being highly plausible this wasn't Kuririn's peak from Saichoro's potential unlock.

As you pointed out, Gohan didn’t know Freeza could transfor, plus he wasn’t even entirely sure if they could do it. Freeza also did say Vegeta wasn’t bluffing after the grappling, but he didn’t know Vegeta had knowledge on his transformations.

True, though Gohan isn't exactly the most seasoned fighter and Kuririn did take note of Freeza's odd confidence despite the situation.

You could argue that, but that’s somewhat hard to prove. Unlike with Kuririn and Gohan there never is a moment where Vegeta notices he’s stronger than before - He just wakes up, gets pissed at not being immortal saying Freeza will kill them and just faces Freeza head on.

Unlike with Gohan and Kuririn, he didn't need such a statement when his feats did the job.

Well, in this case there’s Gohan and Kuririn holding off and almost killing 2nd form Freeza without any help from Vegeta whatsoever.

The former through a rage boost that Vegeta never imagined surpassing his power and the latter with a surprise attack from Kuririn being expected to be dead. I wouldn't cite either as coming close to killing Freeza though, with him not taking any sort of severe damage from Gohan and the Kienzan still only taking off the tip of his tail.

Toriyama saying he came up with SSJ because he didn’t know how to make Goku stronger or Daizenshuu 7 saying transformations and fusion were the bulk of their power ups post Namek

Toriyama saying he couldn't think of a way for Goku to get stronger at the time isn't to say he didn't come up with ideas on the fly later on, which is exactly what he did with the Rosat.
The statement doesn't really prove that the Freeza Arc was close to the peak of the base Saiyans, but just points out the obvious that their base states wouldn't be of use against the major threat at the time, which is entirely true. For example, even if the Base Saiyans were elevated up to #18 level or so after the Rosat (as many bits of evidence would point to), that's still nothing of worth to Perfect Cell.

I don’t believe in Piccolo’s hax gains anymore.

Interesting. Care to divulge what made you change your mind?

But explain me your view here, CC. Is there a in universe reason for why Goku is faring better than Yamcha here? Or is it just about? And doesn’t the fact Yamcha still mastered it nonetheless still corroborates my point? He could still find the strength to make 10G easy, while the same can’t be said for any human with 100G. Power may not be tied to Gravity, but that doesn’t make the opposite invalid.

Saiyan physiology would be the main reason, I concede that.
Whilst there is some truth in that Yamcha could still manage to train in 10x Gravity, it still stands that his adapting to it was slower than a weaker Goku and such a level of gravity wasn't suggested to be beyond a human's capabilities. 100x gravity was still significant enough for physical training that Vegeta still utilised it to train whilst in SSJ in the Boo Arc and was a tough experience for someone as strong as Trunks, regardless of his inexperience.
That said, whilst it makes sense that 100x Gravity would seem to be a benchmark to some degree, it wouldn't be so linear that it's impossible for the humans to match or surpass the 90k threshold. I still wouldn't argue that Kuririn and Tenshinhan would be any higher than the hundred thousands, though would say they should still be capable of achieving such a level all things considered.

Reading the fight, it’s pretty clear that Goku had a physical upperhand, and Roshi had to counter by pulling several different techniques. It was skill that closed this gap, not Ki, a concept still rather primitive in the series. Plus did Roshi ever imply he couldn’t push the boulder himself?

Roshi was already straining himself with a far smaller boulder, one that Goku moved far further and with far less struggle before his training was even finished, not to mention the larger boulder being one he never intended on his students being able to move.

That said, it seems he's far behind them in physical strength. Whilst Goku may have had a physical upper hand, to say Roshi was getting by purely on speed and technique against him and Kuririn would be untrue. He took plenty of solid hits against both and, going by the boulder feats, shouldn't have been able to endure even one hit if physical ability was the only factor in play in enduring hits. It seems pretty obvious Ki had to be involved.
Whilst Ki was indeed a concept not too common in Part 1, that's not to say it wasn't well utilised by several masters of martial arts. Roshi had plenty of experience in training under Mutaito and the techniques he showcased such as the Kamehameha and Bankoku Bikkuri Sho were definitely Ki-based, with his rival Tsuru Sennin even making bukujutsu (something that requires well honed Ki control) a staple skill of his school.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Indeed, though both have the same problem in believing the potential growth was being treat as a factor - how long would it take to achieve what would be necessary? They would still need to be powerful enough to survive against a transformed Freeza together for long enough that what potential needed to give them their chance possible, which would be doubtful if Gohan and Kuririn were still far too weak to do too much, especially when Vegeta was likely expecting a similar boost from Freeza to what Zarbon got and was already at a disadvantage prior.

About half of the team (Goku, Piccolo and Gohan) came out alive of the fight with Freeza in spite of Freeza being massively stronger than all of them. Freeza wouldn’t go for the kill right away and Vegeta knows it, and he wasn’t even expecting Freeza to have the power to one shot and tank him like that either. He’d have his hands full with Vegeta like in that grappling sequence and wouldn’t bother to one shot either of the guys unless he had full control of the situation (Like when he empaled Kuririn) or they were active threats to him (Like Dende with the healing abilities).

And again, Vegeta had seen the Z Fighters almost defeat Nappa and effectively defeat him through sheer tactics and teamwork.

Vegeta also lumped both Kuririn and Gohan into the same camp as powers that kept rising, so everything you said about Gohan can be applied to Kuririn to a somewhat lesser extent, with it being highly plausible this wasn't Kuririn's peak from Saichoro's potential unlock.

That just means both their powers were rising. The emphasis given to Gohan’s power would imply there’s starting to appear a gap between them.

True, though Gohan isn't exactly the most seasoned fighter and Kuririn did take note of Freeza's odd confidence despite the situation.

Don’t both of these support my point? Freeza wasn’t even planning to transform until Vegeta asked and he kept his cool throughout.

Unlike with Gohan and Kuririn, he didn't need such a statement when his feats did the job.

He does because the feat is subjective. He’s saying they can’t beat Freeza and pulls a 180 when Freeza shows up. He either was bluffing or overestimating his own power.

The former through a rage boost that Vegeta never imagined surpassing his power and the latter with a surprise attack from Kuririn being expected to be dead. I wouldn't cite either as coming close to killing Freeza though, with him not taking any sort of severe damage from Gohan and the Kienzan still only taking off the tip of his tail.

Vegeta never imagined 2nd form Freeza would surpass him that much either, so that doesn’t mean much.

Dead or not he wasn’t expecting anyone to attack him from behind with a technique that would’ve cut him in half hadn’t he ducked.

By the way, Vegeta claims they have somewhat of a chance upon seeing Gohan’s Zenkai. That doesn’t mean he and Kuririn are close to Zenkai Gohan, does it?

Toriyama saying he couldn't think of a way for Goku to get stronger at the time isn't to say he didn't come up with ideas on the fly later on, which is exactly what he did with the Rosat.
The statement doesn't really prove that the Freeza Arc was close to the peak of the base Saiyans, but just points out the obvious that their base states wouldn't be of use against the major threat at the time, which is entirely true. For example, even if the Base Saiyans were elevated up to #18 level or so after the Rosat (as many bits of evidence would point to), that's still nothing of worth to Perfect Cell.

To avoid turning this into a Base Saiyans debate, let’s just agree that’s what Toriyama intended at that time (And throughout the Cell Arc given the emphasis was still on surpassing the SSJ and Goku deemed training in base pointless). The Saiyans still had access to new means to power up, not to mention genetics dictating the Saiyan and Namekian superiority over Earthlings when it comes to power gains.

Interesting. Care to divulge what made you change your mind?

The bulk of the argument was Namek Kamiccolo >= 1st form Freeza, which I always deemed odd since this would mean Toriyama made Piccolo over 100x stronger just to give him another cheap power up to fight Freeza.

The fission splitting the individual’s power evenly doesn’t mean the fusion would be back to the original power (See Fat Boo and Super Boo), specially when you take into account the fact that Piccolo Jr isn’t Piccolo Daimao; he’s far stronger than his father.

Saiyan physiology would be the main reason, I concede that.
Whilst there is some truth in that Yamcha could still manage to train in 10x Gravity, it still stands that his adapting to it was slower than a weaker Goku and such a level of gravity wasn't suggested to be beyond a human's capabilities. 100x gravity was still significant enough for physical training that Vegeta still utilised it to train whilst in SSJ in the Boo Arc and was a tough experience for someone as strong as Trunks, regardless of his inexperience.
That said, whilst it makes sense that 100x Gravity would seem to be a benchmark to some degree, it wouldn't be so linear that it's impossible for the humans to match or surpass the 90k threshold. I still wouldn't argue that Kuririn and Tenshinhan would be any higher than the hundred thousands, though would say they should still be capable of achieving such a level all things considered.

Vegeta’s training in 150G was mostly a warm up/maintenance light training for the Budokai, not unlike Gohan kicking the air or Goku meditating. If it were meant to represent Vegeta training seriously he’d probably at least be training in SSJ2. It’s also worth noting Trunks was training with him there.

I would say this threshold is significantly lower than 90k, Goku only reached that level by abusing of his Zenkai boosts in the ship as well.

That said, it seems he's far behind them in physical strength. Whilst Goku may have had a physical upper hand, to say Roshi was getting by purely on speed and technique against him and Kuririn would be untrue. He took plenty of solid hits against both and, going by the boulder feats, shouldn't have been able to endure even one hit if physical ability was the only factor in play in enduring hits. It seems pretty obvious Ki had to be involved.
Whilst Ki was indeed a concept not too common in Part 1, that's not to say it wasn't well utilised by several masters of martial arts. Roshi had plenty of experience in training under Mutaito and the techniques he showcased such as the Kamehameha and Bankoku Bikkuri Sho were definitely Ki-based, with his rival Tsuru Sennin even making bukujutsu (something that requires well honed Ki control) a staple skill of his school.

Even well into Z, I doubt Ki was used in a way were it pumped their power and speed. The SEG describes those three as separate attributes.

In both fights Roshi had against his students, he never seemed like he was superior to either. He and Kuririn fought evenly and he had to resort to the Zangouken to put him down for good. Against Goku he was clearly becoming desperate and pulling several tricks, Ki related or not.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

About half of the team (Goku, Piccolo and Gohan) came out alive of the fight with Freeza in spite of Freeza being massively stronger than all of them. Freeza wouldn’t go for the kill right away and Vegeta knows it, and he wasn’t even expecting Freeza to have the power to one shot and tank him like that either. He’d have his hands full with Vegeta like in that grappling sequence and wouldn’t bother to one shot either of the guys unless he had full control of the situation (Like when he empaled Kuririn) or they were active threats to him (Like Dende with the healing abilities).

The fact that Freeza had already been made aware Vegeta wasn't entirely bluffing and Vegeta's assurance that Freeza wouldn't power up by too much would be enough in Vegeta's mind to believe Freeza would consider it enough of a threat to not hold back against, not to mention Freeza made it apparent how much the trio's actions had angered him beforehand.

And again, Vegeta had seen the Z Fighters almost defeat Nappa and effectively defeat him through sheer tactics and teamwork.

Nappa established himself as a pretty mediocre and tactless fighter beyond his strength, so not exactly comparable to Freeza, someone who Vegeta knew to mediate a situation well enough as to eradicate the Saiyans before they became a threat in their numbers.

That just means both their powers were rising. The emphasis given to Gohan’s power would imply there’s starting to appear a gap between them.

Except emphasis is only placed on Gohan's latent power, not its current state.

Don’t both of these support my point? Freeza wasn’t even planning to transform until Vegeta asked and he kept his cool throughout.

The odd confidence seems to suggest Freeza was planning on transforming if necessary and, as we all know, his 2nd form was far stronger than Vegeta could anticipate. Freeza's surprise was purely due to not being aware Vegeta knew he could transform.

He does because the feat is subjective. He’s saying they can’t beat Freeza and pulls a 180 when Freeza shows up. He either was bluffing or overestimating his own power.

This I could concede on to some degree. There is room to assume Vegeta only became aware of his strength afterwards, yet there is indeed no direct statement on this. I do also find it worth noting Vegeta had some sweat upon making his declaration to Freeza to transform, so the idea of it being a bluff holds some validity. Then again, that could easily just be from his clash with Freeza.

However, consider this page here:

Spoiler

Now, unless this is a Viz mistranslation, Vegeta suggests even immortality wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza with his current power, yet is soon shown capable of fighting Freeza's 1st form on relatively equal footing for a short time, to which the addition of immortality shouldn't make this war of attrition take too long (especially taken how it's conveyed in both the Garlic Jr. Arc and Super into account).
Of course, you could turn this around as proof that he was indeed bluffing, yet that desperation doesn't really add up with Vegeta's reasoning to bluff. Against Gero, it was to psych him out and force a retreat. If teamwork is indeed not enough to defeat Freeza then whatever tactical reasoning Vegeta had in making Freeza transform is erased.

Dead or not he wasn’t expecting anyone to attack him from behind with a technique that would’ve cut him in half hadn’t he ducked.

Vegeta wasn't considering Kuririn being healed (or playing dead) before launching a surprise attack, so not really relevant.

By the way, Vegeta claims they have somewhat of a chance upon seeing Gohan’s Zenkai. That doesn’t mean he and Kuririn are close to Zenkai Gohan, does it?

Indeed, but the change in demeanour compared to before when Gohan was attacking Freeza would indicate the Zenkai was greater than the rage boost, of which was already capable of damaging Freeza superficially. Not exactly a valid comparison to a Freeza stronger than one Vegeta could barely fight on even ground against 1 on 1.

The Saiyans still had access to new means to power up, not to mention genetics dictating the Saiyan and Namekian superiority over Earthlings when it comes to power gains.

I'd agree to this somewhat. To gain far more power, Piccolo still required training with a Super Saiyan and his son.
That leads into something else, however, which is that the humans had that opportunity for new training methods through Kaio. Unlike Goku, they had sparring partners along with being on Kaio's for far longer. Next, take into account how much more they gained from 6 months of Kami's training through having sparring partners than Goku did in 3 years.
I wouldn't say Kami personally training them is what made all the difference either, considering we never saw the differences between his and Popo's training nor saw Kami sparring with the student(s) as Popo did in both cases.

The bulk of the argument was Namek Kamiccolo >= 1st form Freeza, which I always deemed odd since this would mean Toriyama made Piccolo over 100x stronger just to give him another cheap power up to fight Freeza.

You mean the exact same thing that happened in the very next arc?

The fission splitting the individual’s power evenly doesn’t mean the fusion would be back to the original power (See Fat Boo and Super Boo), specially when you take into account the fact that Piccolo Jr isn’t Piccolo Daimao; he’s far stronger than his father.

Yes, though Nail was basing his words on his estimation of Piccolo's current state and not the original parts of Kami and Daimao. It's not as though Nail would be factoring in Kami's strength, of which was still enough to offer a great boost to Piccolo in the following arc.

Vegeta’s training in 150G was mostly a warm up/maintenance light training for the Budokai, not unlike Gohan kicking the air or Goku meditating. If it were meant to represent Vegeta training seriously he’d probably at least be training in SSJ2. It’s also worth noting Trunks was training with him there.

Vegeta was still sweating significantly from that. Whilst its true Gohan's training did the same for him, it's worth noting that was with the additional benefit of having a comparably strong sparring partner to train with.
Whilst I don't like to bring up Super, it's worth noting that most of Vegeta's training scenes within it have him being in base unless in the Rosat. It makes sense that you wouldn't necessarily have to be in your strongest form to receive training gains or train intensely, given Goku didn't use Kaioken in the spaceship or Freeza staying in his 1st form sparring with Tagoma, as increasing your base power is every bit as important for increasing your peak.

I would say this threshold is significantly lower than 90k, Goku only reached that level by abusing of his Zenkai boosts in the ship as well.

That only changes the method and rate, not the actual threshold.

Even well into Z, I doubt Ki was used in a way were it pumped their power and speed. The SEG describes those three as separate attributes.

The 40 tons feat alone is enough to show they did require Ki for their power and speed pretty early on. 2

In both fights Roshi had against his students, he never seemed like he was superior to either. He and Kuririn fought evenly and he had to resort to the Zangouken to put him down for good. Against Goku he was clearly becoming desperate and pulling several tricks, Ki related or not.

True, though he was still able to endure their attacks. If he was as physically inferior to them as the boulder feat suggested, a direct hit from either would oneshot him or at the very least knock him down.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I saw Great Saiya-Meng make a point about them not getting higher normally anymore until maybe the Boo saga or that that was the intent initially because of the emphasis on surpassing Super-Saiyan in the Cell saga but then there is Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Trunks without transforming. I don't believe in that but if you do, how'd you counter that?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I saw Great Saiya-Meng make a point about them not getting higher normally anymore until maybe the Boo saga or that that was the intent initially because of the emphasis on surpassing Super-Saiyan in the Cell saga but then there is Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Trunks without transforming. I don't believe in that but if you do, how'd you counter that?

That would require the Saiyans purely training in their base forms as a means to bridge the gap, which isn't implied by what their training shows (Goku and Vegeta both using SSJ when necessary), as well as going against the notion Toriyama implied with his BoG interviews that Goku focusing purely on his lower states was something fairly new in his training regime.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I saw Great Saiya-Meng make a point about them not getting higher normally anymore until maybe the Boo saga or that that was the intent initially because of the emphasis on surpassing Super-Saiyan in the Cell saga but then there is Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Trunks without transforming. I don't believe in that but if you do, how'd you counter that?

That would require the Saiyans purely training in their base forms as a means to bridge the gap, which isn't implied by what their training shows (Goku and Vegeta both using SSJ when necessary), as well as going against the notion Toriyama implied with his BoG interviews that Goku focusing purely on his lower states was something fairly new in his training regime.

Right. I mainly meant how'd Great Saiya-Meng counter that?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I saw Great Saiya-Meng make a point about them not getting higher normally anymore until maybe the Boo saga or that that was the intent initially because of the emphasis on surpassing Super-Saiyan in the Cell saga but then there is Future Gohan sparring with SSJ Trunks without transforming. I don't believe in that but if you do, how'd you counter that?

A mix of several different factors than don’t have to and can’t be about power.
- Stamina. We only see a fragment towards, and it’s possible they both started as Super Saiyans, but Trunks wore out faster than Gohan due to his lack of experience and Gohan reverted back to keep the fight.
- Skill. Goku was able to deflect Trunks’ sword blows with a single finger, but their powers are hardly that far apart.
- Trunks’ age. By virtue of not being fully matured yet he might just be a very weak SSJ here. This one’s doubtful when Kid Gohan could easily surpass his father while younger than this Trunks.

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

The fact that Freeza had already been made aware Vegeta wasn't entirely bluffing and Vegeta's assurance that Freeza wouldn't power up by too much would be enough in Vegeta's mind to believe Freeza would consider it enough of a threat to not hold back against, not to mention Freeza made it apparent how much the trio's actions had angered him beforehand.

Freeza was angered, but not desperated; he still made a point of show off his Ki and didn’t immediately transform after fighting Vegeta. And he’s shown to toy around with the Z Figthers when having the edge.

Nappa established himself as a pretty mediocre and tactless fighter beyond his strength, so not exactly comparable to Freeza, someone who Vegeta knew to mediate a situation well enough as to eradicate the Saiyans before they became a threat in their numbers.

Indeed, and Vegeta even acknowledged brute power isn’t enough to beat Freeza. But he’s still prone to arrogance nonetheless, and on all 2 (3, counting Super) he was defeated because of his arrogance:
1. Toying around with the Z Fighters whenever he had the upperhand, getting caught off guard several times (By Kuririn, enraged Gohan, Piccolo, The Genki Dama…)
2. Not admitting his defeat and trying to kill SSJ Goku with Kienzan and then with an off guard blast, leading to the lost of over half his body.
3. Refusing to power up against Trunks in spite of seeing he’s a SSJ;
4. In DBS he rushes to fight Goku and Vegeta without mastering his Golden form.

Granted Freeza’s also shown to play safe, (e.g. transforming upon Piccolo removing his weights and being attacked by Gohan, trying to blow up the planet), but only when his power was matched. I’d say being weaker than Freeza is actually an advantage for Vegeta and the others here.

The odd confidence seems to suggest Freeza was planning on transforming if necessary and, as we all know, his 2nd form was far stronger than Vegeta could anticipate. Freeza's surprise was purely due to not being aware Vegeta knew he could transform.

Keywords: “If necessary”.

However, consider this page here:
‪[+] Spoiler‬
Now, unless this is a Viz mistranslation, Vegeta suggests even immortality wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza with his current power, yet is soon shown capable of fighting Freeza's 1st form on relatively equal footing for a short time, to which the addition of immortality shouldn't make this war of attrition take too long (especially taken how it's conveyed in both the Garlic Jr. Arc and Super into account).
Of course, you could turn this around as proof that he was indeed bluffing, yet that desperation doesn't really add up with Vegeta's reasoning to bluff. Against Gero, it was to psych him out and force a retreat. If teamwork is indeed not enough to defeat Freeza then whatever tactical reasoning Vegeta had in making Freeza transform is erased.

Yeah, I’m aware of this scan and I’d say it further proves Vegeta’s bluff. But he wasn’t bluffing for the same reasons he bluffed against Gero.

Vegeta didn’t have a plan, his wishes of immortality. He was just laying all the cards on the table, pulling a bravado over a plan that only might work. And as I’ve mentioned before, being weaker than Freeza can work as an advantage.

Vegeta wasn't considering Kuririn being healed (or playing dead) before launching a surprise attack, so not really relevant.

You don’t have to think someone’s dead to sneak them.

Indeed, but the change in demeanour compared to before when Gohan was attacking Freeza would indicate the Zenkai was greater than the rage boost, of which was already capable of damaging Freeza superficially. Not exactly a valid comparison to a Freeza stronger than one Vegeta could barely fight on even ground against 1 on 1.

Yes, but Freeza had powered up after this superficial damage was dealt.

I'd agree to this somewhat. To gain far more power, Piccolo still required training with a Super Saiyan and his son.
That leads into something else, however, which is that the humans had that opportunity for new training methods through Kaio. Unlike Goku, they had sparring partners along with being on Kaio's for far longer. Next, take into account how much more they gained from 6 months of Kami's training through having sparring partners than Goku did in 3 years.
I wouldn't say Kami personally training them is what made all the difference either, considering we never saw the differences between his and Popo's training nor saw Kami sparring with the student(s) as Popo did in both cases.

If anything the fact they had sparring partners wouldn’t be that much of a thing. They have most likely exhausted their sparring gains with each other on the training with Kami, and the only new person to spar with was Kaio.

There’s also the step of learning to control Ki, something the humans at least partially failed since they failed to learn Kaio’s techniques.

You mean the exact same thing that happened in the very next arc?

Yes, difference being Piccolo did the opposite of sparring with a SSJ for 3 years here. Plus Android Arc Piccolo is overrated, but that’s for the next “Piccolo vs Freeza” thread

Vegeta was still sweating significantly from that. Whilst its true Gohan's training did the same for him, it's worth noting that was with the additional benefit of having a comparably strong sparring partner to train with.
Whilst I don't like to bring up Super, it's worth noting that most of Vegeta's training scenes within it have him being in base unless in the Rosat. It makes sense that you wouldn't necessarily have to be in your strongest form to receive training gains or train intensely, given Goku didn't use Kaioken in the spaceship or Freeza staying in his 1st form sparring with Tagoma, as increasing your base power is every bit as important for increasing your peak.

Gohan was actually shown to sweat just by kicking the air and nothing else, though you could chalk this one up to his rustiness instead. Anyways I wouldn’t say sweating means he’s doing some intense training. Do you not break a single sweat even when doing basic training?

It makes no sense training with lower forms to improve the upper ones. The transformations exist in the first place as a mean to achieve power your initial form couldn’t reach, so them even being tied to a static multiplier makes no sense. That being said, the Kaio-Ken is a technique, not a form and Freeza’s transformations are a way of suppression and would work differently because of that.

That only changes the method and rate, not the actual threshold.

Different methods would imply different thresholds though. Not every training regiment yields the same gains and that’s why characters constantly evolve their training regiments throughout the series.

The 40 tons feat alone is enough to show they did require Ki for their power and speed pretty early on.

And the Grade forms raising power and speed by pumping oneself with Ki as well.

True, though he was still able to endure their attacks. If he was as physically inferior to them as the boulder feat suggested, a direct hit from either would oneshot him or at the very least knock him down.

So what is your point then, CC? If Roshi closed that gap by having a higher Ki level, wouldn’t he also be able to move that rock?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

- Stamina. We only see a fragment towards, and it’s possible they both started as Super Saiyans, but Trunks wore out faster than Gohan due to his lack of experience and Gohan reverted back to keep the fight.

That seems like a bit of a stretch when we have no on-panel indication of that. The closest we get to indicate anything like that is Gohan saying Trunks would soon surpass him, yet leaves Trunks behind in case they were to both die despite already believing himself to some chance of beating #17 and #18.

- Skill. Goku was able to deflect Trunks’ sword blows with a single finger, but their powers are hardly that far apart.

Trunks said Goku was greater than the rumours, and I doubt skill alone would make him so optimistic.

Freeza was angered, but not desperated; he still made a point of show off his Ki and didn’t immediately transform after fighting Vegeta. And he’s shown to toy around with the Z Figthers when having the edge.

Freeza was still far more angry than Vegeta had ever seen from what we know. He also didn't transform immediately as he scoffed at the idea of the trio being any sort of challenge at first.

Indeed, and Vegeta even acknowledged brute power isn’t enough to beat Freeza. But he’s still prone to arrogance nonetheless, and on all 2 (3, counting Super) he was defeated because of his arrogance:

That is something the audience is aware of indeed, but can the same fully be said of Vegeta? He's never seen Freeza even attack someone when not sitting in the comfort of his hover chair at that point.
The only thing Vegeta has to go off in brute force not being enough would be Freeza's telekinetic abilities, which whilst notable, aren't displayed enough prior to the battle to give an indication to Vegeta he'd be facing Chaozu on steroids.

You don’t have to think someone’s dead to sneak them.

Indeed, but the chances of getting in that position with someone determined to crush all 3 of them would be very difficult.

If anything the fact they had sparring partners wouldn’t be that much of a thing. They have most likely exhausted their sparring gains with each other on the training with Kami, and the only new person to spar with was Kaio.

It isn't really suggested using the same sparring partners diminishes training gains. After all, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo trained together for 3 years straight rather than switching things up by inviting someone like Kuririn.

There’s also the step of learning to control Ki, something the humans at least partially failed since they failed to learn Kaio’s techniques.

That may possibly be so for Yamcha. For Tenshinhan though, he at least was only tryinh to learn the basics and add his own spin which he did with the Kikoho, which I'd definitely say required expert Ki control to even use.

So what is your point then, CC? If Roshi closed that gap by having a higher Ki level, wouldn’t he also be able to move that rock?

Not exactly. Moving and lifting objects seems to be based entirely on physical strength from what examples we're given in the series, rather than Ki enhancement playing a part.

I will admit I am being a little swayed into Kuririn not being as relevant as I initially perceived, given the cracks in Vegeta's plan and the many factors to consider. However, I still find it worth pointing out what parts of your argument I find to still need some work.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

That seems like a bit of a stretch when we have no on-panel indication of that. The closest we get to indicate anything like that is Gohan saying Trunks would soon surpass him, yet leaves Trunks behind in case they were to both die despite already believing himself to some chance of beating #17 and #18.

I reckon it is quite a stretch, but so is believing Trunks made gains comparable to Android Arc Piccolo’s entirely on his own. I find more believable for him to have honed how to use his power, given he seems to have mastered the Kenjustu (Swordsmanship), something emphasized by the Daizenshu 2 explaining he’s developed a very mortal fighting style.

Trunks said Goku was greater than the rumours, and I doubt skill alone would make him so optimistic.

Indeed, but neither of them were going all out on the sparring and Trunks emphasized the fact that Goku stopped the sword rather than his own power. Power may not be much of a factor given Trunks is testing Goku for a fight with enemies who can’t be sensed.

But skill alone wasn’t the biggest factor either, Trunks described Goku as a “True Super Saiyan… Just like mom and Gohan told me” just by chatting with Goku. There’s more than just power and skill for Goku.

Freeza was still far more angry than Vegeta had ever seen from what we know. He also didn't transform immediately as he scoffed at the idea of the trio being any sort of challenge at first.

I mean transforming immediately after grappling with Vegeta, showing that albeit he reckoned it wasn’t a complete bluff he didn’t feel the need to transform just yet.

That is something the audience is aware of indeed, but can the same fully be said of Vegeta? He's never seen Freeza even attack someone when not sitting in the comfort of his hover chair at that point.
The only thing Vegeta has to go off in brute force not being enough would be Freeza's telekinetic abilities, which whilst notable, aren't displayed enough prior to the battle to give an indication to Vegeta he'd be facing Chaozu on steroids.

He does acknowledge Freeza’s not a noob at fighting, so it seems like he’s seen Freeza in action at least once.

But either way, he doesn’t need to see Freeza fighting to know his personality traits and how easy it is for his arrogance to get the best of him.

Indeed, but the chances of getting in that position with someone determined to crush all 3 of them would be very difficult.

Depends on how determined he is. At that point he’s clearly treating the Z Fighters differently than say, how he treated them after being hit by the Genki-Dama, where he instantly tried to kill them all.

It isn't really suggested using the same sparring partners diminishes training gains. After all, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo trained together for 3 years straight rather than switching things up by inviting someone like Kuririn.

Goku actually invited Kuririn and Yamcha when he invited Piccolo, but they declined saying they wouldn’t be able to keep up.

That may possibly be so for Yamcha. For Tenshinhan though, he at least was only trying to learn the basics and add his own spin which he did with the Kikoho, which I'd definitely say required expert Ki control to even use.

Agreed, thus why I used “At least partially”. I have Tenshinhan actually reaching that plateau of Saiyan Arc Goku’s power, but Yamcha and Chaozu are still behind that.

Not exactly. Moving and lifting objects seems to be based entirely on physical strength from what examples we're given in the series, rather than Ki enhancement playing a part.

If Ki can be used to strengthen your muscles, then that should enhance their lifting strength as well.

I will admit I am being a little swayed into Kuririn not being as relevant as I initially perceived, given the cracks in Vegeta's plan and the many factors to consider. However, I still find it worth pointing out what parts of your argument I find to still need some work.

In short, would you mind pointing out such?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I reckon it is quite a stretch, but so is believing Trunks made gains comparable to Android Arc Piccolo’s entirely on his own. I find more believable for him to have honed how to use his power, given he seems to have mastered the Kenjustu (Swordsmanship), something emphasized by the Daizenshu 2 explaining he’s developed a very mortal fighting style.

Even leaving aside plot dictating power, it's worth noting that being the last hope for Earth would cause Trunks to push himself far more than before. Alongside that, it's worth noting that Trunks' body had matured significantly from 3 years prior, which would logically make it more capable of handling far greater limits of Ki.

I mean transforming immediately after grappling with Vegeta, showing that albeit he reckoned it wasn’t a complete bluff he didn’t feel the need to transform just yet.

He didn't just yet, but he always had that trump card locked away in case those three did prove more difficult than anticipated. I'd still say he would've transformed once the situation got tense, just not immediately after a grapple when considering the mere act of transforming is enough to boost his Ki to the extent all 3 together couldn't harm him during the transformation.

Goku actually invited Kuririn and Yamcha when he invited Piccolo, but they declined saying they wouldn’t be able to keep up.

Yes, but my point was at no point did they decide to switch things up in terms of who they trained with to our knowledge, yet their gains weren't implied to be hindered whatsoever.

If Ki can be used to strengthen your muscles, then that should enhance their lifting strength as well.

It can to some extent, but that's far from a linear increase. Take into account the infamous 40 tons feat and compare that to him flinging giant Piccolo at the 23rd TB, who even when lowballing his weight with various factors would still be in the 10 ton range at least.
Now compare that to the comparatively minuscule gap between Roshi and Goku/Kuririn at that point.

In short, would you mind pointing out such?

Anything I found worth offering a counter-argument to would be something I'd see as needing some work.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] Going back to your points of Post-Kaio Piccolo not being as strong as many like to say, there's two questions I'd like you to consider:

1. Nail still believed a hypothetical Kamiccolo could defeat Freeza and Freeza made it apparent in numerical terms what the gap between he and Nail was. How do you explain Piccolo being several times weaker than Freeza (if not far more) when the Cell Arc showed the boost of fusing with Kami isn't that huge beyond plot dictating power?
The only explanation I'd come to is that Cell Arc Kamiccolo's boost was only so comparively small due to how strong he'd already gotten and the limits of what Kami's addition could provide were being reached.

2. Piccolo rushes to help save Gohan from Freeza, with it later being established by Gohan that Piccolo's not the type to underestimate his opponent (and thus, not overestimate himself). Wouldn't that suggest he considered himself at least more capable than Gohan?
You could bring up him wanting to charge in to save Gohan from Cell but that was after his fusion with Kami which seemed to definitely affect his personality (his desire to live on the Heavenly Realm, him initially referring to himself as neither Kami nor Piccolo and saying a kind goodbye to Popo, his personality in the Boo Arc in general, etc.) and even if assuming Kami's influence didn't play a role in his decision, that was after an additional 3 years with Gohan and Goku when even 1 year with Gohan had a significant effect on Piccolo's personality and priorities.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

1. I do believe the boost was considerable in the Android Arc as well. Piccolo is at best somewhat stronger than a heavily suppressed Freeza and King Cold, and merging with Kami bumped him up to the level of #17, whose future self could beat Super Saiyans using half of his power. Plus there’s the factor you mentioned of Piccolo becoming too strong for Kami’s small power to be much of an addition, akin to how Goku didn’t see Satan or Dende was worth fusing with the Potara.

2. I don’t think the Cell Games example is very good either as Piccolo at least acknowledged he was just saving Gohan, while Namek Piccolo intended to defeat Freeza altogether.
Gohan’s statement was that Piccolo can sense Ki and should know how strong Freeza is. He’s not describing a character trait, but an ability every Z Fighter knows, but also has overlooked. Piccolo is later shown to be blown away by Freeza’s power and reluctant to believe Nail’s word that he’d die against Freeza, so I’d say it’s a mix of not knowing Freeza’s power and counting on the others to beat Freeza, not just himself.

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123 Going back to your points of Post-Kaio Piccolo not being as strong as many like to say, there's two questions I'd like you to consider:

1. Nail still believed a hypothetical Kamiccolo could defeat Freeza and Freeza made it apparent in numerical terms what the gap between he and Nail was. How do you explain Piccolo being several times weaker than Freeza (if not far more) when the Cell Arc showed the boost of fusing with Kami isn't that huge beyond plot dictating power?
The only explanation I'd come to is that Cell Arc Kamiccolo's boost was only so comparively small due to how strong he'd already gotten and the limits of what Kami's addition could provide were being reached.

2. Piccolo rushes to help save Gohan from Freeza, with it later being established by Gohan that Piccolo's not the type to underestimate his opponent (and thus, not overestimate himself). Wouldn't that suggest he considered himself at least more capable than Gohan?
You could bring up him wanting to charge in to save Gohan from Cell but that was after his fusion with Kami which seemed to definitely affect his personality (his desire to live on the Heavenly Realm, him initially referring to himself as neither Kami nor Piccolo and saying a kind goodbye to Popo, his personality in the Boo Arc in general, etc.) and even if assuming Kami's influence didn't play a role in his decision, that was after an additional 3 years with Gohan and Goku when even 1 year with Gohan had a significant effect on Piccolo's personality and priorities.

Very good points, point 1 explains why the Patriarch mentions that Piccolo would not have killed by the Saiyans if he had joined Kamisama.

 I do not see the problem with which a hypothetical Kamiccolo had reached a power of 20,000 Considering that Piccolo was not hundreds of times more powerful than Kamisama at that point.

 As for point 2. Piccolo (Pre Nail) probably thought he would be superior to Gohan, because the trio was scared to face Frieza. Piccolo talks about Gigantic Ki and the other 3 big Ki. That means that Freeezer First Form (Deleted)> Vegeta (In rest state). The same applies to Gohan and Krillin, so most likely, Piccolo (Pre Nail)> = Gohan (at rest).

 Personally I have them:

Vegeta = 500,000
Freezer First Form (Deleted) = 397,500
Gohan = 300,000
Piccolo = 280,000
Krillin = 200,000

 It should also be considered that Nail felt the power of Piccolo (Weighted), therefore, Nail thought that the power of Piccolo (Weighted) was all his power and we well know that: Freezer First Form (Deleted) >> Piccolo (Not Weighted ) >> Piccolo (Weighted). That's why Nail thought Frieza would easily kill Piccolo. While it is true that Piccolo knew all his power well, but at the time he ran into Nail, Frieza was using all his power.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Tenshinhan = base Android arc Goku since they both dodged Gero’s eye beam with a crazy amount of effort. Simplest explanation is that they are the same

Kulilin > Tenshinhan

No idea where Yamcha would be

 

[SSJ2]

Anywhere from 1-20 million each.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anywhere from 1-20 million each.

Even Chaozu? dawg

 

[SSJ2]

Chaozu isn't a human. Neither is Lord Tenshinhan who is stronger than Krillin.

 

[ahill1]

Kuririn tops at 150,000 while Tenshinhan at his highest is as strong as Captain Ginyu. Yamcha I think didn't even reach the 100k mark. That's already mad impressive for Earthlings though.

 

[SSJ2]

Kuririn tops at 150,000 while Tenshinhan at his highest is as strong as Captain Ginyu. Yamcha I think didn't even reach the 100k mark. That's already mad impressive for Earthlings though.

What made you change your position on this?

Krillin at 150k doesn't sound right, but the rest of the humans are irrelevant I guess.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kuririn: 30,000
Tenshinhan: 7,500
Yamcha: 5,000
Yajirobe: 970
Chaozu: 750

That's it for me. Kuririn doesn't think he can ever reach Ginyu Tokusentai levels (And logically shouldn't reach Nail or Post 100G Goku's power). Both Tenshinhan and Yamcha failed to learn any of Kaio's techniques, but Tenshinhan arguably came close with the Shin Kikoho.