How Strong is Future Gohan?

[ahill1]

I don't know if Vegeta was a SSJ, but if I had to choose, I'd say he wasn't one [manga-wise]. I don't see a huge problem with [less than half #17] being < Freeza. It's just some small portion of #17's power, so it still doesn't count as the new villain being below Freeza.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This actually annoys me. He's the new villian, this small portion of his power should overhelm the last villian, like 40% Old Man Daimao overhelms Tenshithands. And Freeza being more than 40% of Android SSJ Vegeta is a total joke.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't know if Vegeta was a SSJ, but if I had to choose, I'd say he wasn't one [manga-wise]. I don't see a huge problem with [less than half #17] being < Freeza. It's just some small portion of #17's power, so it still doesn't count as the new villain being below Freeza.

I'm not sure. Less than half #17 easily dominated Super Saiyan Future Gohan a yr before, but I don't like the idea of Gohan being weaker than Freeza at that time. It also comes down to how much power you believe the Androids used against Trunks. He said they had power beyond imagination, but in likelihood, the Androids never used their full-power against him.

I only think Trunks is slightly stronger than Gohan.

 

[p123]

Generally when a new villain or character appears and is suggested to be in the same realm within the last highlighted major character, the new guy is usually a little stronger.

For example... Let's start with Dragonball.

1) Mummy stronger than Jackie Chun/Goku's previous powers.
2) King Chappa stronger than Gohan/Goku/Tao Pai Pai's previous powers.
3) King Chappa perhaps stronger than 22nd Goku/Tien's power
4) Tien stronger than Piccolo Daimao's power.
5) Saibamen rivaling Raditz power.
6) Cui equal to Vegeta's power.

It's a common theme for the top powers being surpassed by the new, not major character happens all the time.


I'm not saying that Initial Future 17 has to be superior than Freeza, it just wouldn't surprise me if he was. Let's not forget Trunks total disdain for Cyborg Freeza's power as well. If we want to speculate, it's quite possible that Trunks knows he can obliterate Freeza's full power based on Gohan and Trunks view of where Freeza stood against the Androids.

If Initial 17 was around Cyborg Freeza's power and Gohan (1 Arm) was confident in potentially defeating two infinite energy opponents of that level, it would make quite a bit of sense for Trunks to have no respect for Freeza then now wouldn't it?


Trunks should be stronger than Gohan by a margin that Gohan's defeat would be avoided by Trunks part.

Trunks probably thought that Gohan ran out of energy, was just out of range of defeating the Androids. It's quite possible, hell, quite likely that Gohan's view on the Androids power is the same as Trunks's view.

Gohan shows a mixture of confidence and doubt as he takes on the Androids. Perhaps a 10% increase of power for Trunks would raise the ratio more into confidence than doubt here. I think 10% is generally reasonable.


Future 17 1,000
Trunks 500
Gohan 450
Initial 17 375


Something like this seems appropriate imo.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yet Dabura is weaker than Cell.

 

[p123]

It's quite possible that Dabura is actually stronger than Cell, or at least natural Cell, pre zenkai. It's quite possible Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 and Dabura and he are a bit above Perfect Cell's full power, not his Super Perfect form.

As I said, it's generally a trend, but the new villain, who is generally not a big bad, is somehow relatable to the previous big bad. It's a running theme with the Dragonball series.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's quite possible that Dabura is actually stronger than Cell, or at least natural Cell, pre zenkai. It's quite possible Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 and Dabura and he are a bit above Perfect Cell's full power, not his Super Perfect form.

The majority of evidence still suggests Gohan to just be an SSJ, such as the art, Goku telling Gohan to get angry like against Cell, as well as Gohan only mentioning the level beyond SSJ once the Goku VS Majin Vegeta fight commenced.

As I said, it's generally a trend, but the new villain, who is generally not a big bad, is somehow relatable to the previous big bad. It's a running theme with the Dragonball series.

A trend, but not an ironclad rule. Even being relatable to Cell (vs. Goku) would suffice when there was little other competition as far as villains go and the evidence for Dabura being any higher is primarily conjecture. A lot of the examples you provided also don't have enough of a solid comparison, such as Mummy not meaning much as far as progression goes when Taopaipai had already been introduced, or Cui not meaning much compared to Oozaru Vegeta. With your Tenshinhan > Daimao comparison, that's for an ally character, in which case for the Boo Arc, the trend could instead by applied for SS2 Vegeta being comparable to SPC at that point. Dabura could easily still be compared to a weaker version of Cell and the trend would still be consistent.

As far as your comparison this trend for the narrative implying that >50% #17 > Freeza, I don't have a problem with it and would wholeheartedly agree with such, though with different, more in-universe logic behind it. I simply don't agree with treating this meta-logic trend as evidence for Gohan being an SS2 against Dabura.

 

[ahill1]

I generally do have #17 less than half > Freeza, even above Mecha Freeza and Namek Goku. I just don't see it as set in stone. It's still in the realm of conjecture imo, I am fine either way. With 2 arms Gohan being ~ SSJ Goku from Namek we'd have (using SSJ Goku at 150 million for convenience's sake):

Goku SSJ (Namek) 150,000,000
Gohan SSJ (2 arms) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza 160,000,000
Future #17 (less than half) 175,000,000
Gohan SSJ (1 arm) 200,000,000
Trunks SSJ (17 years) 220,000,000
Goku SSJ (post yardrat) 250,000,000

Does this sound good?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The majority of evidence still suggests Gohan to just be an SSJ, such as the art, Goku telling Gohan to get angry like against Cell, as well as Gohan only mentioning the level beyond SSJ once the Goku VS Majin Vegeta fight commenced.

Ins't Goku telling Gohan to get angry implying the opposite? If he just wanted Gohan to go SSJ2 he'd tell him to get mad like in the Budokai, while mentioning the Cell Games is to have a rage boost like the one who put him on pair with SPC.

I generally do have #17 less than half > Freeza, even above Mecha Freeza and Namek Goku. I just don't see it as set in stone. It's still in the realm of conjecture imo, I am fine either way. With 2 arms Gohan being ~ SSJ Goku from Namek we'd have (using SSJ Goku at 150 million for convenience's sake):

Goku SSJ (Namek) 150,000,000
Gohan SSJ (2 arms) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza 160,000,000
Future #17 (less than half) 175,000,000
Gohan SSJ (1 arm) 200,000,000
Trunks SSJ (17 years) 220,000,000
Goku SSJ (post yardrat) 250,000,000

Does this sound good?

Those seems good tbh. But the biggest problem carries to the Android Arc, where Future 17 has to be ~ SSJ Vegeta and there is a huge gap between Vegeta and the Mecha Arc SSJs.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Ins't Goku telling Gohan to get angry implying the opposite? If he just wanted Gohan to go SSJ2 he'd tell him to get mad like in the Budokai, while mentioning the Cell Games is to have a rage boost like the one who put him on pair with SPC.

SS2 Gohan at the Budokai seemed to have been retconned at that point, considering Kibito's lack of faith in him and Kaioshin saying he didn't see how strong Gohan was.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Well, we know Kibito had to have seen Gohan's Super Saiyan since he quickly said becoming one wouldn't change (releasing the Z-Sword) the situation.

It seemed like Kibito's faith in all of them was absent once he saw Dabra. He and Kaioshin were already panicking right from the get go.

Kaioshin's "you never got to see what those 3 can do" seems to be more about their power while fighting than anything else. Kibito did see Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, but he did nothing but get his energy absorbed.

 

[p123]

Yea it begs the question, why didn't Goku just tell him to do what he did at the Budokai, like a couple of hours ago? Why bring up something from 7 years ago?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It can mean 2 things:

-Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 couldn't defeat Dabra at his current level. Therefore, he had to tap into his dormant power to win.
-Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai was retconned, so Goku was basically telling Gohan to become a Super Saiyan 2 like he did against Cell.

The 1st option is more coherent for me.

 

[p123]

Agreed. All of the talk about Gohan's "true power", what happens to when he gets angry, all allude to there being something special with Gohan's power.