How strong is Karin?

[SSJ2]

How does he compare to the 22nd Budokai finalists?

 

[GSM123]

Tough to tell. He doesn’t admit Goku surpassed him until 3 years later, but he doesn’t exactly think his training was incomplete when he left to fight Tao either.

He also ought to be superior to the humans for his training regiment to be worth it, but that’s at odds with how even Tenshinhan was with a Goku who already trained with him.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd say Karin ought to be above all the competitors in the 22nd TB, bar Ten's Kikoho (which he can just dodge). Most statements point towards Goku having gotten a Zenkai from the beating Tambourine gave him, which opens up some room for Karin to fight between 22nd TB and post-ROAST fish Galu. For what it's worth, he was impressive enough for Goku to overestimate him in the anime when not being sure of who was stronger between Karin and Less than 50% Piccolo Daimao, suggesting Karin was still very impressive.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] what are the statements implying he got a zenkai? I actually thought it was the opposite. After stealing Yajirobe's fish, he made note that he was at full power again. Then he had the chance to fight Yajirobe which would have been a good indication of his strength, and there was nothing from Goku about becoming more powerful.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver what are the statements implying he got a zenkai?

Chapter: 143, P6.3
Context: after Piccolo and Goku fight a bit, before Piccolo gets serious
Piccolo: “To think that there’d be someone in this world who could knock my back to the ground…I see…At that level, it’s no wonder my underlings couldn’t handle you…”

Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”

Even if assuming this was on account of Daimao underestimating this era's fighters or the "about" suggesting he's not quite Mutaito level respectively, both of these would point to a power boost when considering Prime Roshi/Tsuru are alluded to be a measuring stick above the 22nd TB competition.

I wouldn't say Goku's full strength comment need be the case when destroying such a large boulder is far from a noticeable enough strength feat that he could gauge any growth, not to mention Kuririn's statement from the Freeza Arc retroactively alludes to situations such as this being ones where Goku would've gotten stronger.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Slightly stronger than Baba Saga Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

@Captain Cadaver what are the statements implying he got a zenkai?

Chapter: 143, P6.3
Context: after Piccolo and Goku fight a bit, before Piccolo gets serious
Piccolo: “To think that there’d be someone in this world who could knock my back to the ground…I see…At that level, it’s no wonder my underlings couldn’t handle you…”

Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”

Even if assuming this was on account of Daimao underestimating this era's fighters or the "about" suggesting he's not quite Mutaito level respectively, both of these would point to a power boost when considering Prime Roshi/Tsuru are alluded to be a measuring stick above the 22nd TB competition.

I wouldn't say Goku's full strength comment need be the case when destroying such a large boulder is far from a noticeable enough strength feat that he could gauge any growth, not to mention Kuririn's statement from the Freeza Arc retroactively alludes to situations such as this being ones where Goku would've gotten stronger.

But it wasn't exclusively destroying the boulder. Goku then fought Yajirobe and was shown to be serious which would be the perfect way to gauge his own power. When Tambourine returned to fight again, Goku made note that he had something to eat now. It seems odd that he would say that if he got a significant power increase.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering Yajirobe was capable of enduring his blows without trouble, it wasn't exactly the best way for Galu to gauge his abilities when he didn't really have much of a measuring stick to how Yajirobe would compare against his prior strength. It can also be argued that neither got their chance to show the full extent of their abilities, given how Goku later remarked that Yajirobe cutting Cymbal in two was incredible.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] why can’t 22nd or even Baba Goku be above Karin?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

22nd TB Goku is a possibility, though less likely if including supplementary material pointing to the contrary. Post-Karin Goku definitely wouldn't be above him though as, if so, Karin would've pointed it out after the training rather than only using Roshi as a benchmark and him stating Goku had already surpassed him (as opposed to far surpassed, I might add) would carry no weight if he'd done so 3 years ago.

 

[GSM123]

Well, there’s Weekly Jump or some other magazine listing Karin as > Goku, so it’s possible.

Roshi in his prime is stronger than 22nd Goku, so he’s not a bad measuring stick.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I was referring to when Karin said the Goku about to have a rematch with Tao may have already surpassed Roshi, as opposed to himself, so he obviously wasn't referring to Prime Roshi.

 

[GSM123]

I’m aware of this CC. But Goku was already on the verge of surpassing Roshi prior, so don’t you think he could be referring to a stronger Roshi? Or do you think his unsureness came from other factors?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think Karin was referring to more than power, particularly skill and technique. After all, these factors were what allowed Roshi to defeat Goku at the 21st TB, despite being a step behind him in raw power.

 

[SSJ2]

Considering Yajirobe was capable of enduring his blows without trouble, it wasn't exactly the best way for Galu to gauge his abilities when he didn't really have much of a measuring stick to how Yajirobe would compare against his prior strength. It can also be argued that neither got their chance to show the full extent of their abilities, given how Goku later remarked that Yajirobe cutting Cymbal in two was incredible.

The Fagzenshuu makes it sound as though Galu didn't get a zenkai.

Tambourine
"As a Demon Clansman made to battle, his battle power is many times greater than Cymbal's. He beat down Goku, who was hungry and unable to put forth his true power, but later confronted Goku again. This time when Goku had a full stomach, and blew him to smithereens with a furious Kamehameha." -Daizenshuu 7, Human Racial Dictionary

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Fagzenshuu makes it sound as though Galu didn't get a zenkai.

Tambourine
"As a Demon Clansman made to battle, his battle power is many times greater than Cymbal's. He beat down Goku, who was hungry and unable to put forth his true power, but later confronted Goku again. This time when Goku had a full stomach, and blew him to smithereens with a furious Kamehameha." -Daizenshuu 7, Human Racial Dictionary

It can be argued the Daizenshuu is simply reporting on the events as they transpired without taking into account further context in the same way as them saying Non-Ssjin3 Kibito = Base Gohan based on Goku's statement despite him later being shown to be far below the Base Saiyans or saying the battle between Gohan and Dabura was fairly even when Gohan was the only one losing stamina (or stating that Shin > Kamicollo ).

 

[GSM123]

Plus Goku could’ve defeated Tambourine without a Zenkai anyway, so it’d be irrelevant for the entry. Would be cool if they mentioned it though.

But nose of those are contradicted in the series CC . A better example might have been mentioning Daizenshuu 2 calling SSJ2 Goku his full power (As he said it to Vegeta) in spite of having SSJ3’s entry in the same page.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But nose of those are contradicted in the series CC .

Kibito not having made the GAINZ to lift the Z-Sword even slightly contradicts him being equal to Base Gohan pretty hard.

 

[GSM123]

Gohan actually needed SSJ to lift the sword though. You could argue about how Kibito couldn’t even hold it, but Gohan dropped the thing on his hands (Unlike with Goku when he handed the sword to him).

It’s also possible Kibito had the same amount of Ki but was lacking in brute strength, but given his build I doubt it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You could argue about how Kibito couldn’t even hold it, but Gohan dropped the thing on his hands (Unlike with Goku when he handed the sword to him).

How he handed the sword is pretty irrelevant when Base Goku could still lift it with difficulty whereas Kibito couldn't do so at all. The scene itself was also obviously meant as a comparison.

Even assuming Galu simply has an advantage in physical strength from his training, it would seem a stretch to assume physical strength was the pure deciding factor. If that's all it required, Gohan's Ki wouldn't have increased much if at all, something Goku doesn't support with him offering doubt at Gohan beating Boo rather than outright refuting his chances like he did with Post-Rosat Kamiccolo.

It’s also possible Kibito had the same amount of Ki but was lacking in brute strength, but given his build I doubt it.

If anything, Kibito's YUGE build goes against the idea they're equal.