How strong is Karin?

[SSJ2]

Lmao @ Kibito dropping the sword because of how Gohan handed it to him. Come on man.

 

[GSM123]

How he handed the sword is pretty irrelevant when Base Goku could still lift it with difficulty whereas Kibito couldn't do so at all. The scene itself was also obviously meant as a comparison.

Even assuming Galu simply has an advantage in physical strength from his training, it would seem a stretch to assume physical strength was the pure deciding factor. If that's all it required, Gohan's Ki wouldn't have increased much if at all, something Goku doesn't support with him offering doubt at Gohan beating Boo rather than outright refuting his chances like he did with Post-Rosat Kamiccolo.

Goku never lifted the sword though, he held it; that's a big difference. Gohan is shown to actually need Super Saiyan to pull the sword off the ground but returns to base afterwards, because lifting an object is naturally harder than merely holding it. Unless you think Base Gohan > SSJ Gohan just by pulling the sword...

What else could be the deciding factor? The SEG establishes a clear difference between Ki and Power, and in the same guide Toriyama says Ki training is needed to get stronger because physical strength is limited. Goku himself may be doubtful, but Gohan seemed sure of what he gained: A stronger arm.

If anything, Kibito's YUGE build goes against the idea they're equal.

Does that mean Kibito can transform into a SSjin3Grd3?

Lmao @ Kibito dropping the sword because of how Gohan handed it to him. Come on man.

Spoiler

He basically threw the thing on Kibito... He wanted to make fun of him there.

 

[SSJ2]

That's quite an assumption when the hand-off isn't even shown. He hands the sword to Kibito vertically, no different to how Goku handed the sword to Gohan later on with 1 hand nonetheless. Nothing shows him throwing the sword to Kibito.

 

[SSJ2]

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku never lifted the sword though, he held it; that's a big difference.

There's a difference. There's also a huge similarity between them as unless the wielder has the strength to lift it, gravity will do the work regardless of how you hand the object. Let's say a guy drops a 5kg dumbell out of his hand for you to catch as opposed to handing you the weight. It's going to be heavier, sure, but the additional kinetic force isn't going to be enough to make it feel like you're lifting 20kg.

Gohan is shown to actually need Super Saiyan to pull the sword off the ground but returns to base afterwards, because lifting an object is naturally harder than merely holding it. Unless you think Base Gohan > SSJ Gohan just by pulling the sword...

Pulling on object out when trapped underneath a structure is a lot more difficult to do than swinging it about; now that's a big difference.

What else could be the deciding factor? The SEG establishes a clear difference between Ki and Power, and in the same guide Toriyama says Ki training is needed to get stronger because physical strength is limited. Goku himself may be doubtful, but Gohan seemed sure of what he gained: A stronger arm.

If strength was indeed the only factor, Goku would have no need to doubt and be sure of his opinion and I doubt even a Gohan as rusty as he was would think only increasing his arm strength would make a difference against a monster that can tool several SS2s.

Does that mean Kibito can transform into a SSjin3Grd3?

Only when faced with a worthy opponent, such as the CHADitz or Appule.

 

[GSM123]

That's actually the correct way to give a sword though. We don't see how Gohan gives it to Goku either but in both panels of that hand-out the sword was facing down: The bulk of the weight is on the blade, so giving it as it faces upwards would be harder to stabilize. Oh and Gohan's hand gesture (And probably even the mere fact Toriyama bothered to draw his hands) definitely looks like he threw the sword on Kibito's hands.

 

[SSJ2]

Lol.

 

[GSM123]

There's a difference. There's also a huge similarity between them as unless the wielder has the strength to lift it, gravity will do the work regardless of how you hand the object. Let's say a guy drops a 5kg dumbell out of his hand for you to catch as opposed to handing you the weight. It's going to be heavier, sure, but the additional kinetic force isn't going to be enough to make it feel like you're lifting 20kg.

I think the shape of the object would also be important here. A dumbell is at least symmetrical, but as I told SSJ2 a sword's blade is often heavier than the hilt, and it would be harder to balance a sword with its blade facing upwards.

Pulling on object out when trapped underneath a structure is a lot more difficult to do than swinging it about; now that's a big difference.

Well the sword was embed in the ground and it's implied Gohan needed to transform to pick it up after Kibito dropped it as well. Next time we see Gohan he's holding the sword as a Super Saiyan, what makes little sense since he could swing it just fine as a SSJ and it was his base form that struggled. That also explains why Kibito failed to pull it off the ground.

If strength was indeed the only factor, Goku would have no need to doubt and be sure of his opinion and I doubt even a Gohan as rusty as he was would think only increasing his arm strength would make a difference against a monster that can tool several SS2s.

Well Goku did show enough power to defeat the Future Androids with one finger when he met Trunks

Gohan never really showed confidence about the idea of fighting Boo after training though. He even said the sword was overrated.

Honestly I'm not sure on what Goku's attitude implies here. He told Piccolo he was trash to his face despite a similar context (His friend whose FP hasn't been shown yet is compared to an enemy whose FP is also unkown). Though there are a couple differences worth pointing out: Piccolo actually asked Goku to be blunt with him, and beforehand Goku at least praised Piccolo's power increase, while Gohan just had his swordmanship commented on.

Context: after Gohan practices with the Z Sword more
Goku: “That’s great! Amazin’, amazin’! I’m impressed that you seem to have mastered it so much in just 1 day!”
Kaioshin: “Magnificent!”

 

[SSJ2]

It really feels like you are going against something that is clearly shown for the sake of it. What is the point of showing Kibito struggling if he was actually as capable as Gohan and Goku in wielding the sword? He couldn't even get it to budge an inch when it was on the ground. In a manga for kids, do you think Toriyama is considering the sword being somewhat heavier when upright? That wasn't the point of the scene nor the intent.

Goku is able to hold its entire weight in one hand as if it is nothing. It doesn't matter if the sword is upright or not. The mass of the sword never changes, yet we see Kibito not being able to budge it an inch. Kibito couldn't handle it with two hands, let alone get it to move at all on the ground. Sure, the sword was slightly embedded in the ground.. the whole point is to show that the sword is heavy and Kibito cannot lift it. It's pretty simple man.

 

[SSJ2]

If you want to bring physics into this, I'd have to think the total weight of the sword would be greater for Goku, who is casually holding it in one arm with his arm fully extended. He is holding the sword in a position that gives him the least amount of power. We then see Kibito attempt to receive the sword from Gohan while using both of his arms in a more braced position. Kibito should have far more power standing with two bent arms ready to receive the sword, yet he is not capable. To me it is far more impressive to handle the entire mass in a position with no leverage using only 1 arm. Try getting a heavy weight and holding it in Kibito's position vs holding it with one arm stretched out. You'll see which is harder.

 

[GSM123]

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”

In a manga for kids, do you think Toriyama is writing this statement already considering it a miscalculation on Gohan’s part? The point of the Z Sword scene is to make a joke out of Kibito, the reason he failed to hold the sword is irrelevant as he’s still humiliated either way.

Goku never pulled the sword off the ground or any other structure, so his perfomance here is irrelevant to Kibito’s failure to lift it off the ground. From what we see later, Gohan transformed to pick it up again. He’s wielding it as a SSJ next time we see him.

As for the sword being handed. Nobody was throwing the sword on Goku’s hands (Rather he was giving it), the heavier part was already pointing downwards and he admittedly found the sword hard to wield, even sweating with just a couple swings. I don’t think that’s really comparable to Kibito’s situation [mention]SSJ2[/mention].

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”

In a manga for kids, do you think Toriyama is writing this statement already considering it a miscalculation on Gohan’s part? The point of the Z Sword scene is to make a joke out of Kibito, the reason he failed to hold the sword is irrelevant as he’s still humiliated either way.

We're shown a miscalculation of the duo later on though. Vegeta initially chalks up Kibito's death to him getting careless, yet is later confident that everyone just overestimated Shin (and by extension, Kibito) due to his status. Also, judging his power on how he looks when he has yet to do anything isn't a solid indicator at all.

Also, just because a series is intended for a younger audience doesn't mean Toriyama would make things childishly simplistic or expect his audience to not have critical thought. There are plenty of series in the same demographic in which the mangaka includes complexity or don't spell things out plainly both before and after DB's run. There's some respect an author has to give their audience regardless of age.
To quote the words of a man who declared the first part of his film series as for 12 year olds: "I would like to see our society become more mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based." And then he probably started talking about the key to all this.

 

[SSJ2]

Ya nah I'm out lol. This is getting ridiculous, basic physics are being ignored.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] the bottom part was mostly a sarcastic response to SSJ2 using the same argument. I agree that not everything has to be thrown in your face; basic details of the story are clear cut but what lies underneath isn’t. Kids would hardly care about power scaling as much as they care about action scenes.

On the estimatives for Kaioshin and Kibito, it’s worth noting Gohan did think his SSJ power could beat Kibito, so he wasn’t necessarily overrating him that much. The fact he didn’t even try to fight in base with the stakes being so high on his social life implies it’s more than just an educated guess.

Vegeta considered Kibito a jobber for not dodging Dabra and Goku implied that wasn’t his FP, so it doesn’t sound like they expected those two to be on their level.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] obviously. But when there is a scene as simple as Kibito not being able to budge the sword when Goku and Gohan showed little trouble, it's pretty obvious what the intent was. The intent wasn't for readers to consider the sword being slightly heavier for Kibito due to being upright. That is pure hogwash.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

On the estimatives for Kaioshin and Kibito, it’s worth noting Gohan did think his SSJ power could beat Kibito, so he wasn’t necessarily overrating him that much. The fact he didn’t even try to fight in base with the stakes being so high on his social life implies it’s more than just an educated guess.

He'd been led to believe just one of these two strangers was far above Piccolo due to the latter's surrender. That's more than enough for him to be cautious of what Kibito could be capable of. This is also a Gohan so rusty that he could fall for a Zanzoken and thought Goten throwing rocks at him whilst in SSJ would make a good exercise. With the restriction of not wanting his glasses removed (and keeping in mind how much a difference clothing restrictions will soon make ) there's enough for him to want to be cautious even if Kibito wasn't necessarily on his level.

Vegeta considered Kibito a jobber for not dodging Dabra and Goku implied that wasn’t his FP, so it doesn’t sound like they expected those two to be on their level.

He attributed Kibito's death to him being careless, suggesting that Kibito would at least be capable of dodging if not caught off-guard or doing something more against a Dabura who's movements already presented him as Cell's equal. If that isn't overestimating Kibito, I don't know what is.

 

[GSM123]

I thought you had headed out…

So the intent is saying Kibito is weaker than Gohan? After Gohan said he can’t beat Kibito and supplementary source? Yeah, it gotta be based on those panels of Goku and Gohan having little trouble with the sword or Kibito failling to pull the sword because of his posture… Because they don’t exist.

 

[SSJ2]

It's evident you've never attempted weight training before. I'm 150lbs, and I could probably deadlift upwards of 300 lbs right now. That is literally the stance that Kibito is in when trying to pick the sword up on the ground. Now if I was to try to pick the barbell up with 1 hand fully extended, my shoulder would break off. You're failing to acknowledge that Goku is capable of holding the entire mass of the sword in only one hand with zero leverage. It doesn't matter if the sword is pointing up or down, the mass is still the same. Your argument is also based on the assumption that Gohan threw the sword at Kibito when there is no factual proof of that. The handoff isn't even shown to us, yet somehow you know that it was thrown at Kibito? The point of the scene was for Gohan to make fun of Kibito? Why would he make fun of a guy who is equally as powerful as himself? Gohan was tired of Kibito harping on him and wanted to prove a point to make Kibito shut up. Evidently that worked as we see Kibito embarrass himself.

As for Gohan's assumption that he wouldn't be able to beat Kibito without revealing his disguise is based on an assumption that Kibito is that strong. Kibito's ki couldn't be sensed, so Gohan is going off instinct. We later learn that Kibito is merely a scrub who gets embarrassed when lecturing Gohan. It's simple bro.

 

[Keedounan]

I thought you had headed out…

So the intent is saying Kibito is weaker than Gohan? After Gohan said he can’t beat Kibito

Wait, did he now? I don't remember Gohan ever saying that in the manga.

and supplementary source?

Which supplementary source?

Yeah, it gotta be based on those panels of Goku and Gohan having little trouble with the sword or Kibito failling to pull the sword because of his posture… Because they don’t exist.

For reasons already stated, I think Goku would have had more posture trouble if anything.

 

[GSM123]

It's evident you've never attempted weight training before. I'm 150lbs, and I could probably deadlift upwards of 300 lbs right now. That is literally the stance that Kibito is in when trying to pick the sword up on the ground. Now if I was to try to pick the barbell up with 1 hand fully extended, my shoulder would break off. You're failing to acknowledge that Goku is capable of holding the entire mass of the sword in only one hand with zero leverage. It doesn't matter if the sword is pointing up or down, the mass is still the same. Your argument is also based on the assumption that Gohan threw the sword at Kibito when there is no factual proof of that. The handoff isn't even shown to us, yet somehow you know that it was thrown at Kibito? The point of the scene was for Gohan to make fun of Kibito? Why would he make fun of a guy who is equally as powerful as himself? Gohan was tired of Kibito harping on him and wanted to prove a point to make Kibito shut up. Evidently that worked as we see Kibito embarrass himself.

As for Gohan's assumption that he wouldn't be able to beat Kibito without revealing his disguise is based on an assumption that Kibito is that strong. Kibito's ki couldn't be sensed, so Gohan is going off instinct. We later learn that Kibito is merely a scrub who gets embarrassed when lecturing Gohan. It's simple bro.

Well in this case tell me your experience with weights embbed in the ground, or with barbells that only had weights in one side.

And how does Gohan knows he's stronger than Kibito? You just said he can't sense his Ki...


Hey, seems like Goku wasn't this effortlessy wielding the sword after all:

Spoiler