How strong is Karin?

[SSJ2]

It's clearly not fully embedded in the ground if Kibito was able to wrap both of his hands around the handle. The fact that he was able to grip it no differently to gripping a barbell on a deadlift is all you need to consider.

Because he was one shotted by Dabra who Gohan fought evenly with? Lol. Kibito was shown to be trash. It's telling that Dabra decided to kill him and not any of the Base Saiyans.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku had trouble swinging the sword, ya. But the fact that he is casually holding it with one arm is continually being ignored by yourself. Also you are failing to acknowledge your assumption that the sword was thrown at Kibito.

 

[GSM123]

Just checked the image I posted some pages ago and you can see that it is after Kibito gives up.

So... Does that mean Gohan was fighting Dabra in base or that base Gohan is Dabra tier? And Vegeta implied Kibito should've been able to dodge that anyway.

Nah, I just think it's irrelevant when that's after he's already gotten the grip of it. But what about him struggling to lift it with both hands in the same page?

 

[GSM123]

Also SSJ2 you think Post Z Sword Gohan is very powerful right? So you think a weight Goku could lift with one hand made Gohan more powerful than Goku?

 

[SSJ2]

You're all over the place man. How does Kibito get his hands around the sword if it is fully embedded under ground. The impact of the sword caused it to become partially embedded, but not so much that it was unable to be gripped.

No, it means that Gohan knows what Dabra is capable of and saw what Kibito was capable of. Vegeta said he should have been able to dodge it but he didn't.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. Goku was shown to struggle with the sword. He even said "Wow!" when he attempted to swing it due to how heavy it was. He was still capable of doing so, and clearly Kibito was shocked by it in the image I've already posted twice, but I'll post it again.

Also I'm not sure the relevance of your second post. What's your point?

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not sure why you are unable to acknowledge any of the flaws within your argument. You are STILL ignoring your assumption that the sword was thrown at Kibito.

 

[GSM123]

You're all over the place man. How does Kibito get his hands around the sword if it is fully embedded under ground. The impact of the sword caused it to become partially embedded, but not so much that it was unable to be gripped.

No, it means that Gohan knows what Dabra is capable of and saw what Kibito was capable of. Vegeta said he should have been able to dodge it but he didn't.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. Goku was shown to struggle with the sword. He even said "Wow!" when he attempted to swing it due to how heavy it was. He was still capable of doing so, and clearly Kibito was shocked by it in the image I've already posted twice, but I'll post it again.

Also I'm not sure the relevance of your second post. What's your point?

I never said Kibito failed to get his hands around the sword though...

So Kibito's poor reflexes are what made Gohan determine he's stronger than Kibito?

From my end it read like you were trying to say Goku had an easy time with the sword. But since we agree he does struggle with it, why does Kibito also struggling places him far below Goku? I'm not trying to say they were rivals, but you use Kibito's failure as a way of saying they're worlds apart. Even Gohan couldn't pull the sword without needing to transform.

SSJ2 since you're rereading DB, didn't Goku and Kuririn manage to push some boulders that Roshi couldn't prior to the 21st Budokai? How different is that from what we're discussing?

I'm not sure why you are unable to acknowledge any of the flaws within your argument. You are STILL ignoring your assumption that the sword was thrown at Kibito.

I'm ignoring that because I never said that in the first place. The sword was dropped on his hands, you can tell that by the gesture his hands made. You can see Gohan's hands pointing downwards as if they almost fell with the sword; he didn't give Kibito time to get the grip of it. Once in the ground it's back to the same situation before Gohan pulled it, thus why he's a SSJ the next time we see him.

Btw it's also theorized the sword is magical and only mortals can wield it, but I find that doubtful in face of this theory lacking any official ground.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's evident you've never attempted weight training before. I'm 150lbs, and I could probably deadlift upwards of 300 lbs right now. That is literally the stance that Kibito is in when trying to pick the sword up on the ground. Now if I was to try to pick the barbell up with 1 hand fully extended, my shoulder would break off.

I'm surprised that with the topic at hand, it took you this long to ask "Bro, do you even lift?" 2

You are STILL ignoring your assumption that the sword was thrown at Kibito.

Also, for what the anime's worth, the sequence clearly shows Gohan handing Kibito the sword rather than throwing or dropping it.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention] but the fact that you are saying the sword is embedded in the ground directly says that Kibito shouldn't be able to get his hands around it. How is there room for his hands to get underneath the sword if it is fully underground?

Kibito's poor reflexes? What are you even referring to?

Nope. I'm saying that Goku is capable of lifting/holding the sword. To fully swing it around is quite a challenge, but he is capable of holding the sword. His nonchalance at the end of his test was absolutely shocking to Kibito, which you didn't counter. Why is Kibito shocked by Base Goku wielding the sword?

Again, Gohan pulled out the sword which was fully embedded in the rock, only the handle was visible. You can't compare that to Kibito attempting to pick the sword up off the ground when it is clearly nt fully embedded as I said above.

Example about Roshi is not relevant since Roshi never tried to move the rock. Logically he would have been able to if he was as strong as his disciples.

You never said the sword was thrown at Kibito? What about this?

He basically threw the thing on Kibito... He wanted to make fun of him there.

You're still assuming that is what happened based on nothing factual. You can't draw a conclusion from something that isn't clearly shown. Gohan's hand motions are likely in response to Kibito dropping the sword at 100mph.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Constant repetition and as always its a one way road with you where you can't concede even the slightest flaws in what you have said.

 

[GSM123]

@GreatSaiyaman123 but the fact that you are saying the sword is embedded in the ground directly says that Kibito shouldn't be able to get his hands around it. How is there room for his hands to get underneath the sword if it is fully underground?

Kibito's poor reflexes? What are you even referring to?

Nope. I'm saying that Goku is capable of lifting/holding the sword. To fully swing it around is quite a challenge, but he is capable of holding the sword. His nonchalance at the end of his test was absolutely shocking to Kibito, which you didn't counter. Why is Kibito shocked by Base Goku wielding the sword?

Again, Gohan pulled out the sword which was fully embedded in the rock, only the handle was visible. You can't compare that to Kibito attempting to pick the sword up off the ground when it is clearly nt fully embedded as I said above.

Example about Roshi is not relevant since Roshi never tried to move the rock. Logically he would have been able to if he was as strong as his disciples.

You never said the sword was thrown at Kibito? What about this?

He basically threw the thing on Kibito... He wanted to make fun of him there.

You're still assuming that is what happened based on nothing factual. You can't draw a conclusion from something that isn't clearly shown. Gohan's hand motions are likely in response to Kibito dropping the sword at 100mph.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Constant repetition and as always its a one way road with you where you can't concede even the slightest flaws in what you have said.

Well the mechanics of how you should hand a sword to someone definitely is boring, and I think this really isn't going nowhere because it's more a matter of understanding/accepting the logic than anything. but I'm genuinely interested in how Gohan can tell Kibito's power out of nowhere.

Vegeta says Kibito should've dodged and is a jobber for not doing so. That only speaks about Kibito's reaction speed/reflexes, not about his lifting capability.

 

[SSJ2]

Nice response. I wish we all had the ability to view the story correctly like you do.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

[mention]SSJ2[/mention] I think we ought to change the title to "How strong are Karin and Kibito? (feat. Z-Sword lifting)"

 

[SSJ2]

Can't say I give a fuck anymore after his last post. This time I'm actually out.

 

[Keedounan]

How in the blazes did you guys move from debating how strong Karin was to Kibito in the first place?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How in the blazes did you guys move from debating how strong Karin was to Kibito in the first place?

I posted the Daizenshuu stating Kibito ~ Base Gohan as an example of how a lot of their entries are based on events without looking at the wider context to compare it to it not acknowledging Goku gaining a potential Zenkai against Tambourine based on what we're told later in the Freeza Arc and GSM disagreed, leading to a debate about....sword lifting physics

 

[Keedounan]

How in the blazes did you guys move from debating how strong Karin was to Kibito in the first place?

I posted the Daizenshuu stating Kibito ~ Base Gohan as an example of how a lot of their entries are based on events without looking at the wider context to compare it to it not acknowledging Goku gaining a potential Zenkai against Tambourine based on what we're told later in the Freeza Arc and GSM disagreed, leading to a debate about....sword lifting physics

That...must have been quite an interesting development. Btw, I think Base Saiyans >>> Kibito

Anyways, moving back to the thread that's actually relevant, I must admit I've never really put much thought on strong Karin truly was. He is definitely a great deal stronger than the likes of Taopaipai and Gohan. And since, unlike you, I don't think Goku received any kind of Zenkai, since the feats he performed don't necessarily require a power-up (and I doubt AT even came up with that concept at the time anyways), I have 22nd Tenkaichi Goku and Tien as the only characters from that time to be above Karin per his own statement in chapter 150, though not necessarily by a margin wide enough for a curbstomp.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

(and I doubt AT even came up with that concept at the time anyways)

That's a main reason I brought up Kibito as an example with how the evidence for him being around Gohan's level based on a single comment by Gohan compared to the wider knowledge we're given by the Z-Sword feat. In a similar manner, looking at things retroactively allows Zenkais to be fit into Part 1 material based on this comment from Kuririn:

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P8.1-5
Context: Vegeta thinks Zarbon’s strength has fallen from the pre-emptive attack and brags about his own increase in power.
Vegeta: “Looks like my preemptive attack had an effect…Your stamina’s fallen quite a bit, hasn’t it? Zarbon, your death is close.”
Zarbon: “My d-death is close…!? Don’t make me laugh! My battle power is higher than yours!”
Vegeta: “Zarbon…Weren’t you supposed to know a lot about Saiyans? It wasn’t a good idea for you to carelessly treat me after I almost died…Don’t you think so? Saiyans can steadily increase their battle power each time they recover from near death…”
Kuririn: “So…so that’s it…! Now that he mentions it, Goku also got stronger every time he had a fierce fight…Dam-dammit! So that’s why Vegeta’s ki has risen so darn much…!”

Which is further reinforced by this lining up with what Kuririn said when Goku fought Blue:

Chapter: Chapter 77, P.13.2-4
Context: Goku easily fights against Blue, not trying too hard. Blue admits he never faced such a threat.
Blue: “Gnnn... Oooh!!”
Goku: “Heh heh! No big dealio!”
Kuririn: “Goku’s amazing! He's become even stronger than he was during the Tenkaichi Budoukai!!”
Blue: “You brat!! I've never encountered such insolence!! You’ll pay for this... Big time!!”
Goku: “So what? You want more?”

And the beating he got from Tambourine would certainly constitute a Zenkai, regardless of size.

As for the evidence as to why I think this, Roshi brings up his young self, let alone Mutaito, being helpless against Piccolo as a reason for why the current fighters have no chance, implying Prime Roshi would be above at least Tenshinhan if not he and Goku. Meanwhile, Daimao never expected to fight someone of Goku's strength in this era and cited him as doing about as well as a human could.

Chapter: 143, P6.3
Context: after Piccolo and Goku fight a bit, before Piccolo gets serious
Piccolo: “To think that there’d be someone in this world who could knock my back to the ground…I see…At that level, it’s no wonder my underlings couldn’t handle you…”

Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”

Suggesting a chain of Mutaito ~ Goku (Post-Roast Fish) > Prime Roshi/Tsuru > 22nd TB Goku/Ten

 

[Keedounan]

(and I doubt AT even came up with that concept at the time anyways)

That's a main reason I brought up Kibito as an example with how the evidence for him being around Gohan's level based on a single comment by Gohan compared to the wider knowledge we're given by the Z-Sword feat. In a similar manner, looking at things retroactively allows Zenkais to be fit into Part 1 material based on this comment from Kuririn:

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P8.1-5
Context: Vegeta thinks Zarbon’s strength has fallen from the pre-emptive attack and brags about his own increase in power.
Vegeta: “Looks like my preemptive attack had an effect…Your stamina’s fallen quite a bit, hasn’t it? Zarbon, your death is close.”
Zarbon: “My d-death is close…!? Don’t make me laugh! My battle power is higher than yours!”
Vegeta: “Zarbon…Weren’t you supposed to know a lot about Saiyans? It wasn’t a good idea for you to carelessly treat me after I almost died…Don’t you think so? Saiyans can steadily increase their battle power each time they recover from near death…”
Kuririn: “So…so that’s it…! Now that he mentions it, Goku also got stronger every time he had a fierce fight…Dam-dammit! So that’s why Vegeta’s ki has risen so darn much…!”

Which is further reinforced by this lining up with what Kuririn said when Goku fought Blue:

Chapter: Chapter 77, P.13.2-4
Context: Goku easily fights against Blue, not trying too hard. Blue admits he never faced such a threat.
Blue: “Gnnn... Oooh!!”
Goku: “Heh heh! No big dealio!”
Kuririn: “Goku’s amazing! He's become even stronger than he was during the Tenkaichi Budoukai!!”
Blue: “You brat!! I've never encountered such insolence!! You’ll pay for this... Big time!!”
Goku: “So what? You want more?”

And the beating he got from Tambourine would certainly constitute a Zenkai, regardless of size.

As for the evidence as to why I think this, Roshi brings up his young self, let alone Mutaito, being helpless against Piccolo as a reason for why the current fighters have no chance, implying Prime Roshi would be above at least Tenshinhan if not he and Goku. Meanwhile, Daimao never expected to fight someone of Goku's strength in this era and cited him as doing about as well as a human could.

Chapter: 143, P6.3
Context: after Piccolo and Goku fight a bit, before Piccolo gets serious
Piccolo: “To think that there’d be someone in this world who could knock my back to the ground…I see…At that level, it’s no wonder my underlings couldn’t handle you…”

Chapter: 144, P7.1
Context: after seeming to kill Goku
Piccolo: “Naturally, this level is about as far as a human could go.”

Suggesting a chain of Mutaito ~ Goku (Post-Roast Fish) > Prime Roshi/Tsuru > 22nd TB Goku/Ten

Interesting. So, based on this chain, how do you think Karin would fare against Yajirobé?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yajirobe is very durable, but made it apparent he probably couldn't take on a Goku fuelled by rage against Tambourine. Karin says Goku had surpassed him, though doesn't suggest it's by much. I'd say Yajirobe may hold a slight power advantage and definite edge in durability, though Karin would make things even through better skill and arguably better stamina.

 

[SSJ2]

I think Yajirobe is noticeably below Goku post Tambourine. He downright fears Goku's power after seeing what he was truly capable of. I'd think Karin could have a slight edge on him.