How strong is Present Zamasu?

[Goku9001]

Doesn’t Goku compare Zamasu to Beerus when they leave the planet? Between that and Gowasu’s own comment I think it makes sense to say Zamasu is around BoGs SSJG Goku.

BoGs SSJG Goku: 1

SSJ Goku (SSJG absorbed): 1
~ RoF: 1.5
~ U6: 2
~ GB: 2.5
~ SSJ2: 5
~ Suppressed: 1.25

SSJ2 Future Trunks: 1.25
Zamasu: 1

I think that is the most sensible approach and likely how I would see it. The comparison made between SSJ2 Goku and his performance against Beerus in Battle of Gods certainly does minimize the boosts in power Goku and Vegeta had acquired through RoF, U6, and the filler arc. Whatever boosts they did get from training is compensated by the fact that Goku was likely suppressed or at a match level against Present Zamasu since Goku Black is by default stronger than Present Zamasu.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I don't disagree with this but there were definitely narrative undertones regardless of Beerus' resentment towards Gowasu's claim. There wouldn't be any reason for Beerus to tell Gowasu about Goku's achievements if the viewers were meant to discard them. For one, Beerus conveys to Gowasu that Goku is no ordinary fighter before mentioning how he could fight a God of Destruction and Beerus was proud to admit this. And Gowasu was left with the impression that Goku was presumably fighting on a level that
only a god can when he witnesses Goku overpower Zamasu.

No, it was a contradicted statement, so even in the literature standards, it is wrong. Of course, there are if he wants to pressume that his mortal is superior. Beerus also told Trunks that Zamasu wouldn't stand a chance against Goku because he had fought him before, Trunks came to the conclusion that his dad and Goku used their blue ki to fight the God of Destruction, meaning that before they couldn't, even though, both perceptions of the story were false according to facts but one is more credible than the other.

He was smirking when Gowasu finally understood that there was a truth behind Beerus' claim. After all, the context suggests Gowasu was somewhat skeptical and confused. Gowasu begins to understand what Beerus was talking about once Goku overpowers his prodigy.

Hmmm no, Gowasu is just giving by anecdotes and stories rather than ki sensing. In fact, Goku overpowering Zamasu doesn't mean much when it comes to idea of him rivaling a God of Destruction in his SSJ2 form.

It doesn't really mean much. The Base Saiyans have battled opponents much stronger than SSJ Trunks. In fact, Base Vegeta was blatantly shown to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Which ones? The only ones were Hit, and the another that was pretty questionable was Final Form Freeza. Even then, Hit was holding back his punches heavily on base Goku, and when it comes to Freeza, perhaps the writers during his arc were just trying to keep base and SSj Blue, something which changed in the Future Trunks Arc as SSJ2 and SSJ3 appeared once again.

Toei has already a story of making SSJ3 Gotenks looking too weak, in the Z Filler, even Piccolo's Makankossapo had an efect on him, even though, both are supposed to be equally as powerful as their original counterparts... so if it's pleased to disagree, there's no issue with that.

 

[Goku9001]

No, it was a contradicted statement, so even in the literature standards, it is wrong. Of course, there are if he wants to pressume that his mortal is superior. Beerus also told Trunks that Zamasu wouldn't stand a chance against Goku because he had fought him before, Trunks came to the conclusion that his dad and Goku used their blue ki to fight the God of Destruction, meaning that before they couldn't, even though, both perceptions of the story were false according to facts but one is more credible than the other.

The only thing that was contradicted was the idea behind Goku and Zamasu being on par with Beerus and even that wasn't a contradiction. As you said, Gowasu made those statements based on Beerus' claims and Beerus corrected him because he clearly misunderstood. Beerus' acknowledgment of Goku being a formidable opponent who can stand up to a God of Destruction is a reference to what the readers knew. There's no reason for bringing this up if it served no importance to the narrative. That counterexample is interesting but Beerus and the viewers are privy to what transpired in Battle of Gods. Beerus acknowledges SSJ2 Goku as one who can stand up to a God of Destruction so his feats in Battle of Gods still hold merit.

Hmmm no, Gowasu is just giving by anecdotes and stories rather than ki sensing. In fact, Goku overpowering Zamasu doesn't mean much when it comes to idea of him rivaling a God of Destruction in his SSJ2 form.

I don't disagree, but it is still embedded in the scene. Gowasu expressed doubts about Goku and then upon Goku overpowering Zamasu, Gowasu retracted those doubts. Consider this, if Goku didn't surpass the level of a mortal and reach the level of the gods with his Super Saiyan 2 form, would Gowasu actually believe Goku stood a chance against Beerus? It's illogical for that to be the case had SSJ2 Goku still remained at a mortal level.

Which ones? The only ones were Hit, and the another that was pretty questionable was Final Form Freeza. Even then, Hit was holding back his punches heavily on base Goku, and when it comes to Freeza, perhaps the writers during his arc were just trying to keep base and SSj Blue, something which changed in the Future Trunks Arc as SSJ2 and SSJ3 appeared once again.

Toei has already a story of making SSJ3 Gotenks looking too weak, in the Z Filler, even Piccolo's Makankossapo had an efect on him, even though, both are supposed to be equally as powerful as their original counterparts... so if it's pleased to disagree, there's no issue with that.

Yes. Those examples would include Hit and Final Form Frieza. Kuririn states that even both him and Gohan were in "top condition" which pertains to Gohan's "Ultimate" form, there'd still be nothing they could do. Frieza even acknowledges that Base Goku was much stronger than Majin Buu. Even if you deny that Goku was god-level, there are still clear parameters that established that Base Goku surpassed all of Z save for Vegetto I guess.

In regards to the Toei filler, the difference is that Toei had the creative liberty of doing whatever they wanted with the anime filler. When it comes to Super, Toei can't do whatever they want. Toriyama had to approve their work and he approved of the idea that Base Vegeta could trounce SSJ3 Gotenks. That remains consistent with how the Base Saiyans were portrayed in Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Goku's battle with Beerus after the U6 Tournament.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

The only thing that was contradicted was the idea behind Goku and Zamasu being on par with Beerus and even that wasn't a contradiction. As you said, Gowasu made those statements based on Beerus' claims and Beerus corrected him because he clearly misunderstood. Beerus' acknowledgment of Goku being a formidable opponent who can stand up to a God of Destruction is a reference to what the readers knew. There's no reason for bringing this up if it served no importance to the narrative. That counterexample is interesting but Beerus and the viewers are privy to what transpired in Battle of Gods. Beerus acknowledges SSJ2 Goku as one who can stand up to a God of Destruction so his feats in Battle of Gods still hold merit.

It was contradicted because Gowasu retracted his own comment, Goku and Zamasu can't be on par with Beerus since that would make Goku and Goku Black many times stronger than him. I can agree at some exent that Goku can be a formidable opponent to a God of Destruction, but talking about Goku of this arc and in general, not limited to one of his weakest transformation. SSJ Goku had God Esscene against Beerus and Goku didn't felt any weaker than before even after his time limit expired.

It's implied that when characters fight head on against their opponents they understand their level even better, such as when SSJ2 Vegeta fought Kid Buu:

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317, P8.2)
Context: as pure Boo beats up on Vegeta
Vegeta: "Wh-what fast and heavy attacks...! ...Kakarot was... fighting with a gu-guy like this...?!"

In this case, Trunks felt how heavy were Vegeta's punches and then come to the conclussion that just SSj Blue can stand up to the God of Destruction:

Episode: 54
Time: 18:53-18:55
Context: While getting beat up by Vegeta
[F] Trunks: "He's strong... Far too strong!"

It's important to notice that this is the same Trunks that observed SSJ3 Goku stopping his strongest attack with his fingers and then proceed to one-shot him.

I don't disagree, but it is still embedded in the scene. Gowasu expressed doubts about Goku and then upon Goku overpowering Zamasu, Gowasu retracted those doubts. Consider this, if Goku didn't surpass the level of a mortal and reach the level of the gods with his Super Saiyan 2 form, would Gowasu actually believe Goku stood a chance against Beerus? It's illogical for that to be the case had SSJ2 Goku still remained at a mortal level.

Mortal level is relative, unless you are talking about an specific mortal level, there are mortals too strong, as well as too weak... Hmmm, I don't know, Gowasu can sense ki, but can't sense Beerus' properly...? That's what I imagine...

Yes. Those examples would include Hit and Final Form Frieza. Kuririn states that even both him and Gohan were in "top condition" which pertains to Gohan's "Ultimate" form, there'd still be nothing they could do. Frieza even acknowledges that Base Goku was much stronger than Majin Buu. Even if you deny that Goku was god-level, there are still clear parameters that established that Base Goku surpassed all of Z save for Vegetto I guess.

In regards to the Toei filler, the difference is that Toei had the creative liberty of doing whatever they wanted with the anime filler. When it comes to Super, Toei can't do whatever they want. Toriyama had to approve their work and he approved of the idea that Base Vegeta could trounce SSJ3 Gotenks. That remains consistent with how the Base Saiyans were portrayed in Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Goku's battle with Beerus after the U6 Tournament.

How? Goku was able to make a wound on Hit, even though, this same Hit could make SSj Blue Vegeta bleed with his punches, plus, Goku didn't get that damaged which already confirms that he is opperating a very reduced level, Base Goku's performance against Hit isn't anything to go by.

When it comes to Final Form Freeza, well, his level is changeable and isn't consistent from one way to other, however, if we want to justify his case quite a bit, Goku needed to kill him in a very weakened state using a Kamehameha in SSj Blue, even though, SSJ or even base would've been sufficient.

Super and Z treats Ultimate state differently, so, it mostly referrs to his current condition which was a pretty bad one. Freeza doesn't know how strong Majin Buu is, and the only thing he knows is that he could never provoke him or Beerus, which means that they were far superior to him.

The Z Filler which was preserved in Kai of him observing fighting SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu, seems to be retconned, as hell is potrayed different, even then, to think that he could grasp them, when his memory is limited to the weakest SSJ it's clearly too much of a stretch.

If we go by "Toriyama approved", Toriyama approved Bulma slapping Beerus, as well as many fillers or retconned his manga of the Gohan and Trunks' story changing it from the anime, don't know how that could end...

 

[PFM18]

...How strong do you have him in relation to DBZ characters?

Oh the Base Saiyans are literally SSJ Vegetto level, and he's relative to SSJ2 Goku, so nobody in DBZ would be able to compete with him

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Oh the Base Saiyans are literally SSJ Vegetto level, and he's relative to SSJ2 Goku, so nobody in DBZ would be able to compete with him

Which doesn't make any sense...

 

[PFM18]

Which doesn't make any sense...

What's wrong with it? Are people not allowed to pass Z characters? I mean Dai Kaioshin was current SSG level in the manga, which would make Zamasu hilariously weak in comparison relative to their corresponding continuities

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

What's wrong with it? Are people not allowed to pass Z characters? I mean Dai Kaioshin was current SSG level in the manga, which would make Zamasu hilariously weak in comparison relative to their corresponding continuities

Hmm no, there are several characters that surpass everyone of DBZ in Super... problem is characters surpassing everyone in DBZ while they compare to regular SSJ forms, which doesn't make any sense. Don't know what the manga have to do with this...

 

[Goku9001]

It was contradicted because Gowasu retracted his own comment, Goku and Zamasu can't be on par with Beerus since that would make Goku and Goku Black many times stronger than him. I can agree at some exent that Goku can be a formidable opponent to a God of Destruction, but talking about Goku of this arc and in general, not limited to one of his weakest transformation. SSJ Goku had God Esscene against Beerus and Goku didn't felt any weaker than before even after his time limit expired.

It's implied that when characters fight head on against their opponents they understand their level even better, such as when SSJ2 Vegeta fought Kid Buu:

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317, P8.2)
Context: as pure Boo beats up on Vegeta
Vegeta: "Wh-what fast and heavy attacks...! ...Kakarot was... fighting with a gu-guy like this...?!"

In this case, Trunks felt how heavy were Vegeta's punches and then come to the conclussion that just SSj Blue can stand up to the God of Destruction:

Episode: 54
Time: 18:53-18:55
Context: While getting beat up by Vegeta
[F] Trunks: "He's strong... Far too strong!"

It's important to notice that this is the same Trunks that observed SSJ3 Goku stopping his strongest attack with his fingers and then proceed to one-shot him.

Mortal level is relative, unless you are talking about an specific mortal level, there are mortals too strong, as well as too weak... Hmmm, I don't know, Gowasu can sense ki, but can't sense Beerus' properly...? That's what I imagine...

How? Goku was able to make a wound on Hit, even though, this same Hit could make SSj Blue Vegeta bleed with his punches, plus, Goku didn't get that damaged which already confirms that he is opperating a very reduced level, Base Goku's performance against Hit isn't anything to go by.

When it comes to Final Form Freeza, well, his level is changeable and isn't consistent from one way to other, however, if we want to justify his case quite a bit, Goku needed to kill him in a very weakened state using a Kamehameha in SSj Blue, even though, SSJ or even base would've been sufficient.

Super and Z treats Ultimate state differently, so, it mostly referrs to his current condition which was a pretty bad one. Freeza doesn't know how strong Majin Buu is, and the only thing he knows is that he could never provoke him or Beerus, which means that they were far superior to him.

The Z Filler which was preserved in Kai of him observing fighting SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu, seems to be retconned, as hell is potrayed different, even then, to think that he could grasp them, when his memory is limited to the weakest SSJ it's clearly too much of a stretch.

If we go by "Toriyama approved", Toriyama approved Bulma slapping Beerus, as well as many fillers or retconned his manga of the Gohan and Trunks' story changing it from the anime, don't know how that could end...

Actually, let's clear this up before moving forward. The reason you believe Goku is confined to the standards of Z was that the power he displayed against Beerus as a Super Saiyan was a result of maintaining that God Ki in some way, correct? Even if that were the case, Beerus still makes a reference to Goku's fight with Beerus to establish that Goku could fight on a level that we, as viewers, had witnessed in Battle of Gods. I don't see the point of Beerus making that reference unless there was some validity to it.

 

[PFM18]

Hmm no, there are several characters that surpass everyone of DBZ in Super... problem is characters surpassing everyone in DBZ while they compare to regular SSJ forms, which doesn't make any sense. Don't know what the manga have to do with this...

Well, it does make sense because Goku's "regular SSJ" is on a completely different level from everything in Z. I don't see any problem with regular SSJ forms being stronger than DBZ.

We can see that Goku adapted to, and retained the power he gained as an SSG, in his SSJ form, and then grew stronger. Meaning his SSJ>SSG>all of Z, this means that of course his SSJ2, especially after 3 years of ROSAT training and training with Whis for 6 months, would be far stronger than even that. If Zamasu scales to that, then of course he is stronger than all of Z.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Actually, let's clear this up before moving forward. The reason you believe Goku is confined to the standards of Z was that the power he displayed against Beerus as a Super Saiyan was a result of maintaining that God Ki in some way, correct? Even if that were the case, Beerus still makes a reference to Goku's fight with Beerus to establish that Goku could fight on a level that we, as viewers, had witnessed in Battle of Gods. I don't see the point of Beerus making that reference unless there was some validity to it.

Hmmm no, I think that you're misunderstanding my stance, Goku in Super is stronger than in DBZ, and have two additional transformations on top of that.

Goku begans to say that he hadn't fought a God since Beerus, and, in this case, he is fighting a God that is not even remotely as powerful as Beerus, of course, Goku could make use of the SSJ God power, but he doesn't breathe while having those powers. Also, considering that everything they wanted to know is that wheter Zamasu was actually Black or not would be unlikely for Goku to make use of his God powers, and he would just use the form which he used with Black (which is what actually happen).

Well, it does make sense because Goku's "regular SSJ" is on a completely different level from everything in Z. I don't see any problem with regular SSJ forms being stronger than DBZ.

We can see that Goku adapted to, and retained the power he gained as an SSG, in his SSJ form, and then grew stronger. Meaning his SSJ>SSG>all of Z, this means that of course his SSJ2, especially after 3 years of ROSAT training and training with Whis for 6 months, would be far stronger than even that. If Zamasu scales to that, then of course he is stronger than all of Z.

Yes, and he ended archieving even a higher transformation. His regular forms aren't something to pressume; base Vegeta can't be sense from Beerus' planet by Goku, while SSJ Kid Trunks can; Dabura is presented as a challenge to Trunks one year earlier despite of how insignificant he is.

 

[PFM18]

Yes, and he ended archieving even a higher transformation. His regular forms aren't something to pressume; base Vegeta can't be sense from Beerus' planet by Goku, while SSJ Kid Trunks can; Dabura is presented as a challenge to Trunks one year earlier despite of how insignificant he is.

Okay this is a very strange argument. We have an enormous body of evidence that the normal forms/Base of Goku and Vegeta is obscenely powerful, suggesting that they're weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks is completely absurd. I don't know how you are even figuring that Base Vegeta cannot be sensed from Beerus's planet? Are you just saying that no comment was made about it or something? Goku never actively tried to sense it but was unable to so that's a non argument. Dabura was not one year earlier, in the anime at least all that we know is that it occurred at some point in the 14 year intermission since we've seen Trunks, he easily could have fought him a decade ago, and Dabura could have been stronger in this continuity anyway, similar to present androids vs future, or future vs present zamasu. This is a very very weak anti-feat.

Whether or not he later achieved a higher transformation is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what their baseline strength is, which was affected by the God adaptation/infusion, his body simply learned from the experience, and converted it into his own power. Vegeta replicated this same boost by simply training with Whis for 6 months prior to Goku getting there. It's especially ridiculous that you would even compare Base Vegeta to Kid Trunks with all of the counter evidence, for one that Kid Trunks was stated to be too weak for the Universe 6 tournament without fusion, meanwhile Goku/Vegeta were entirely comfortable starting the competition in Base. Then there's that:

1) Tagoma dominated Piccolo, Only to be one shot by Base Vegeta, 1st form Freeza dominated SSJ Gohan who was way above everyone else there, including SSJ Gotenks, SSJ Gohan, Piccolo, etc, and then needed to transform to his final form to be on par with Base Goku/Vegeta, which should be at least a 130x boost given what we know on Namek with his transformations. LIke, they should literally be 130+ times stronger than SSJ Gohan who's Base was ridiculously strong compared to any of the previous times we had seen him.
2) Goku in Base fought Monaka in his Beerus costume, and heavily entertained him, which was at least in a similar ballpark of entertainment as his SSG self, and sure as hell orders of magnitude stronger than his old SSJ3 self was against Beerus, similar to how SSG was. SSJ3 Goku didn't entertain Beerus at all. (I don't personally think he had surpassed BoG SSG to this point in his Base, but that's not super relevant, he's in that ballpark is the point)
3) Base Vegeta tanked and one shot SSJ3 Gotenks.
4) Goku, who commented on how dramatically Buu had improved, still is able to casually fight him in his Base form, seemingly without any effort. Base Goku>>=Fit Buu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Good Buu is very impressive.

So unless you think SSJ Kid Trunks is also ~6,000+ times stronger than Piccolo, 130x stronger than SSJ Gohan, several orders of magnitude stronger than SSJ3 Goku, able to one shot and tank SSJ3 Gotenks, then yeah there's no comparison to be had.

 

[Goku9001]

Hmmm no, I think that you're misunderstanding my stance, Goku in Super is stronger than in DBZ, and have two additional transformations on top of that.

Goku begans to say that he hadn't fought a God since Beerus, and, in this case, he is fighting a God that is not even remotely as powerful as Beerus, of course, Goku could make use of the SSJ God power, but he doesn't breathe while having those powers. Also, considering that everything they wanted to know is that wheter Zamasu was actually Black or not would be unlikely for Goku to make use of his God powers, and he would just use the form which he used with Black (which is what actually happen).

Yes, and he ended archieving even a higher transformation. His regular forms aren't something to pressume; base Vegeta can't be sense from Beerus' planet by Goku, while SSJ Kid Trunks can; Dabura is presented as a challenge to Trunks one year earlier despite of how insignificant he is.

It seems like your argument against Goku with his Super Saiyan transformations being on the level of "Super Saiyan God" is that what SSJ Goku displayed against Beerus was because Goku retained that god ki specifically for that fight and lost access to this ability afterward. Where is the evidence supporting this? Whis says Goku reverted back to a "normal" Super Saiyan, Beerus detect anything peculiar about Goku's form until Goku managed to strike him, and there's nothing within the anime or any outside source that discusses "SSJ God Essence". In fact, Goku is shocked by Vegeta's progress when training under Whis despite knowing about Enraged Vegeta's prior and Vegeta's new power only slightly exceeded Goku's.

I think @PFM18 addressed that example best. As you said, Toei screws up and this could very well be an example of that.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Okay this is a very strange argument. We have an enormous body of evidence that the normal forms/Base of Goku and Vegeta is obscenely powerful, suggesting that they're weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks is completely absurd. I don't know how you are even figuring that Base Vegeta cannot be sensed from Beerus's planet? Are you just saying that no comment was made about it or something? Goku never actively tried to sense it but was unable to so that's a non argument.

Goku wanted to teleport to Beerus' planet, he just used the opportunity when Vegeta went SSj Blue and was clearly trying hard to do so.

Dabura was not one year earlier, in the anime at least all that we know is that it occurred at some point in the 14 year intermission since we've seen Trunks, he easily could have fought him a decade ago, and Dabura could have been stronger in this continuity anyway, similar to present androids vs future, or future vs present zamasu. This is a very very weak anti-feat.

It is implied that Black appeared after doesn't sound like he appeared years afterwards.

Hmmm, yes, Dabura was implied to be someone too obsessed to get stronger

Spoiler: Dabura considers himself the strongest

You mentioning the Future Androids just worse your situation, as Dabura could also be weaker than his maintimeline self.

Whether or not he later achieved a higher transformation is completely irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what their baseline strength is, which was affected by the God adaptation/infusion, his body simply learned from the experience, and converted it into his own power. Vegeta replicated this same boost by simply training with Whis for 6 months prior to Goku getting there. It's especially ridiculous that you would even compare Base Vegeta to Kid Trunks with all of the counter evidence, for one that Kid Trunks was stated to be too weak for the Universe 6 tournament without fusion, meanwhile Goku/Vegeta were entirely comfortable starting the competition in Base. Then there's that:

So, if he could get abnormally stronger, why would he needs to get more and more transformations?

Of course, Trunks is too weak for the leagues of SSj Blue, but even Gotenks is. Most of the people would agree with him being stronger than Piccolo even if it's not the case, yet, Piccolo replaced him and Goten.

1) Tagoma dominated Piccolo, Only to be one shot by Base Vegeta, 1st form Freeza dominated SSJ Gohan who was way above everyone else there, including SSJ Gotenks, SSJ Gohan, Piccolo, etc, and then needed to transform to his final form to be on par with Base Goku/Vegeta, which should be at least a 130x boost given what we know on Namek with his transformations. LIke, they should literally be 130+ times stronger than SSJ Gohan who's Base was ridiculously strong compared to any of the previous times we had seen him.

Hmmm, yes, Piccolo was always wearing his heavy clothes which limited him in the fights. Even then, Piccolo's jump one arc to other is clearly an inconsitence due to how low his potential is in relation to the saiyans, hard to take at face value that. Hmmm no, Gohan can barely mantain the SSJ, even after training with Piccolo, Trunks considers him weaker than his Cell Games arc self and it also make sense as Gohan even as a SSJ was praised by Perfect Cell due to how tough he is.

2) Goku in Base fought Monaka in his Beerus costume, and heavily entertained him, which was at least in a similar ballpark of entertainment as his SSG self, and sure as hell orders of magnitude stronger than his old SSJ3 self was against Beerus, similar to how SSG was. SSJ3 Goku didn't entertain Beerus at all. (I don't personally think he had surpassed BoG SSG to this point in his Base, but that's not super relevant, he's in that ballpark is the point)

Whis states that Beerus is holding back more than ever.

3) Base Vegeta tanked and one shot SSJ3 Gotenks.

Take that as evidence is like take into account the Filler in which Piccolo's Makankossapo had an effect on SSJ3 Gotenks, despite of being equally as powerful as they usually were.

4) Goku, who commented on how dramatically Buu had improved, still is able to casually fight him in his Base form, seemingly without any effort. Base Goku>>=Fit Buu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Good Buu is very impressive.

Why is this even relevant? We are talking about the Goku Black arc, not the TOP.

So unless you think SSJ Kid Trunks is also ~6,000+ times stronger than Piccolo, 130x stronger than SSJ Gohan, several orders of magnitude stronger than SSJ3 Goku, able to one shot and tank SSJ3 Gotenks, then yeah there's no comparison to be had.

Already adressed in prior points, overrating heavily would get you nowhere.

It seems like your argument against Goku with his Super Saiyan transformations being on the level of "Super Saiyan God" is that what SSJ Goku displayed against Beerus was because Goku retained that god ki specifically for that fight and lost access to this ability afterward. Where is the evidence supporting this? Whis says Goku reverted back to a "normal" Super Saiyan, Beerus detect anything peculiar about Goku's form until Goku managed to strike him, and there's nothing within the anime or any outside source that discusses "SSJ God Essence".

Because we know that SSJ had already reached its peak long time ago, the SSJ that Goku used against Beerus was something else. Goku afterwards preserve it and that's why he could make access of the form without any time limit, it's more like internal power than anything else.

In fact, Goku is shocked by Vegeta's progress when training under Whis despite knowing about Enraged Vegeta's prior and Vegeta's new power only slightly exceeded Goku's.

So, what does a shock reaction actually means? Goku was surprised that someone can oneshot Freeza in the Buu Saga after acknowledging SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell's power. That gets nowhere.

I think @PFM18 addressed that example best. As you said, Toei screws up and this could very well be an example of that.

So, no offense, but do you actually have a point by yourself?

 

[Goku9001]

Because we know that SSJ had already reached its peak long time ago, the SSJ that Goku used against Beerus was something else. Goku afterwards preserve it and that's why he could make access of the form without any time limit, it's more like internal power than anything else.

So, what does a shock reaction actually means? Goku was surprised that someone can oneshot Freeza in the Buu Saga after acknowledging SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell's power. That gets nowhere.

So, no offense, but do you actually have a point by yourself?

We know the God ritual had a profound effect on Goku's body. Goku already made it a case that he had no limits during his fight with Beerus. But, that's not what we're discussing. We are asking for the evidence that confirms "SSJ God Essence" and that's not compelling enough.

The shock reaction would mean that the Kaioshins were stronger than Goku expected. Likewise, Goku was privy to Enraged Vegeta's power and was aware of Vegeta training for 6 months under Beerus' mentor. Despite knowing that, he was shocked by Vegeta's progress which enabled Vegeta to slightly surpass Goku. That's evidence more in favor of Goku retaining the power of God rather than it being a temporary anomaly.

My point is that Toei screwed up which is fair game if you were to argue that Base Vegeta's feat against SSJ3 Gotenks is invalid.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

We know the God ritual had a profound effect on Goku's body. Goku already made it a case that he had no limits during his fight with Beerus. But, that's not what we're discussing. We are asking for the evidence that confirms "SSJ God Essence" and that's not compelling enough.

The fact that Goku could fight as a SSJ with a Suppressed Beerus whereas SSJ3 Goku got twoshotted.

The shock reaction would mean that the Kaioshins were stronger than Goku expected. Likewise, Goku was privy to Enraged Vegeta's power and was aware of Vegeta training for 6 months under Beerus' mentor. Despite knowing that, he was shocked by Vegeta's progress which enabled Vegeta to slightly surpass Goku. That's evidence more in favor of Goku retaining the power of God rather than it being a temporary anomaly.

Hmmm yes, Enraged Vegeta's power was greater than SSJ3 Goku, there's no issue with that. Problem is, that Vegeta and Goku were said to be potential challenge for Beerus in the future, their max powers were SSJ God and Enraged SSJ2, even though, both of them weren't equal.

It's also a concept that was no given any continuation on after sagas as SSJ2 and SSJ3 returned afterwards, whereas before were limited to base and SSJ Blue. Of course, after Beerus' fight, SSJ God Powers were conserved by Goku as it fused with himself and he could tap into them whenever he wants, even though, it was internal power as all the SSJ transformations are.

My point is that Toei screwed up which is fair game if you were to argue that Base Vegeta's feat against SSJ3 Gotenks is invalid.

Even then, you have to somehow prove that Dabura and SSJ3 Gotenks' gap is smaller than it what actually is to make sense, that or Toei weren't thinking too much when they made both scenes and we are free to choose whatever case we want.

 

[Goku9001]

The fact that Goku could fight as a SSJ with a Suppressed Beerus whereas SSJ3 Goku got twoshotted.

That's proof that Goku had become stronger after the ritual, not proof that the power was temporary.

Hmmm yes, Enraged Vegeta's power was greater than SSJ3 Goku, there's no issue with that. Problem is, that Vegeta and Goku were said to be potential challenge for Beerus in the future, their max powers were SSJ God and Enraged SSJ2, even though, both of them weren't equal.

It's also a concept that was no given any continuation on after sagas as SSJ2 and SSJ3 returned afterwards, whereas before were limited to base and SSJ Blue. Of course, after Beerus' fight, SSJ God Powers were conserved by Goku as it fused with himself and he could tap into them whenever he wants, even though, it was internal power as all the SSJ transformations are.

You omitted one clear detail. Goku sensed Enraged Vegeta's power and admits to being present the entire time. If Vegeta had become much stronger than he expected and Vegeta was still only slightly stronger than Goku, then it stands to reason that Goku's power was already much greater than Enraged Vegeta's. Do you agree?

Even then, you have to somehow prove that Dabura and SSJ3 Gotenks' gap is smaller than it what actually is to make sense, that or Toei weren't thinking too much when they made both scenes and we are free to choose whatever case we want.

So your argument is essentially, "Death of the Author", I believe what I want to believe because it doesn't make sense.

I don't really see the issue here. Trunks simply got much stronger after his fight with Dabura. Go where the narrative takes you and don't let your own preconceived judgments blind you.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That's proof that Goku had become stronger after the ritual, not proof that the power was temporary.

Because the SSj God power still remained with himself and was preserved at that point, he didn't get any weaker from that because he was still taping into that power.

Now if, you are willing to say that Goku breath while having god powers, then you are also in need to say that SSj God Goku can be hurt by bullets because that's was it actually portrayed.

You omitted one clear detail. Goku sensed Enraged Vegeta's power and admits to being present the entire time. If Vegeta had become much stronger than he expected and Vegeta was still only slightly stronger than Goku, then it stands to reason that Goku's power was already much greater than Enraged Vegeta's. Do you agree?

Considering that, even though, Vegeta's performance in SSJ2 against Beerus is clearly a lie, as Beerus also tanked his Garlick Gun and called him weak, he is still stronger than SSJ3 Goku because he entertained him more in his own words, so no... Goku and Vegeta still needs SSJ forms to fight Universe 9 participants.

So your argument is essentially, "Death of the Author", I believe what I want to believe because it doesn't make sense.

I don't really see the issue here. Trunks simply got much stronger after his fight with Dabura. Go where the narrative takes you and don't let your own preconceived judgments blind you.

Trunks isn't exactly portrayed to be someone that can grow stronger fast, and much less getting far more powerful, this is shown in the Cell Saga, as well as in his Special of the two remaining warriors.

Hmmm, ok, then we have that Fit Buu is even stronger than Good Buu and that Base Goku can fight him, but later he need SSJ forms to fight Basil that got massacrated by Good Buu.

Basil < transformed Basil < Good Buu < Fit Buu = Base Goku < Basil < SSJ Goku

What sense can we make of this?

 

[Goku9001]

Because the SSj God power still remained with himself and was preserved at that point, he didn't get any weaker from that because he was still taping into that power.

Now if, you are willing to say that Goku breath while having god powers, then you are also in need to say that SSj God Goku can be hurt by bullets because that's was it actually portrayed.

That's an explanation of your argument but that is not evidence. I'm asking for evidence that clearly suggests that Goku retained that god ki. Let's look at the moment when Goku's Super Saiyan God power expired.

Episode: 13
Time: 19:17-20:00
Context: Beerus explains to Goku why his Super Saiyan is so powerful after the God ritual expired.
Beerus: Oh, please! Your Super Saiyan God aura has disappeared. You were slow to notice!
Goku: Huh? When did that... But I don't feel like I'm weaker at all. What's goin' on, Beerus sama?
Beerus: Don't ask me!
Goku: Ain't you a god?!
Beerus: It appears your Super Saiyan God powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance... is still burning brightly in you like a flame.

This doesn't sound like a temporary power-up. It became a part of his very being which implies that it would be intrinsic to him. Would you agree with that interpretation?

Considering that, even though, Vegeta's performance in SSJ2 against Beerus is clearly a lie, as Beerus also tanked his Garlick Gun and called him weak, he is still stronger than SSJ3 Goku because he entertained him more in his own words, so no... Goku and Vegeta still needs SSJ forms to fight Universe 9 participants.

That has nothing to do with what I said. I claimed that Goku was aware of Enraged Vegeta's power and his vast superiority to his Super Saiyan 3 form. Goku returns to meet Vegeta and is astonished by his power. This would mean that Vegeta's current power exceeded Enraged Vegeta's. After all that is said and done, Goku confirms that Vegeta was only slightly stronger than him. This would add some credence to at least some of Super Saiyan Gods' power still being present in all of Goku's forms. Otherwise, the logic wouldn't follow.

Trunks isn't exactly portrayed to be someone that can grow stronger fast, and much less getting far more powerful, this is shown in the Cell Saga, as well as in his Special of the two remaining warriors.

Hmmm, ok, then we have that Fit Buu is even stronger than Good Buu and that Base Goku can fight him, but later he need SSJ forms to fight Basil that got massacrated by Good Buu.

Basil < transformed Basil < Good Buu < Fit Buu = Base Goku < Basil < SSJ Goku

What sense can we make of this?

Trunks is a Saiyan hybrid who went from below Super Saiyan 2 Goku to battling opponents that could give Blue Goku a hard time. And, we see Trunks growing rapidly stronger within his Super Saiyan Rage form. Your argument isn't a proper counterargument because Goku and Vegeta as we know in Z cannot get rapidly stronger through rage but that's not the case in Super where it is firmly established that Goku and Vegeta's power can rise exponentially in battle. Super operates under different rules so referencing Z isn't an appropriate depiction of a character's abilities in Super.

That's a different discussion and I'd rather not veer away from the current discussion.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

That's an explanation of your argument but that is not evidence. I'm asking for evidence that clearly suggests that Goku retained that god ki. Let's look at the moment when Goku's Super Saiyan God power expired.

Episode: 13
Time: 19:17-20:00
Context: Beerus explains to Goku why his Super Saiyan is so powerful after the God ritual expired.
Beerus: Oh, please! Your Super Saiyan God aura has disappeared. You were slow to notice!
Goku: Huh? When did that... But I don't feel like I'm weaker at all. What's goin' on, Beerus sama?
Beerus: Don't ask me!
Goku: Ain't you a god?!
Beerus: It appears your Super Saiyan God powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance... is still burning brightly in you like a flame.

This doesn't sound like a temporary power-up. It became a part of his very being which implies that it would be intrinsic to him. Would you agree with that interpretation?

If anything, I'm not disagreeing with this. Yes, he preserved the SSJ God Powers and remained within himself, but that's his internal power, as any other form of the SSJ actually is. Also, the quote you're giving it also can be explained by how he preserved the transformation and why he can make access of it, those are distinct form of view and what you say isn't an absolute answer.

That has nothing to do with what I said. I claimed that Goku was aware of Enraged Vegeta's power and his vast superiority to his Super Saiyan 3 form. Goku returns to meet Vegeta and is astonished by his power. This would mean that Vegeta's current power exceeded Enraged Vegeta's. After all that is said and done, Goku confirms that Vegeta was only slightly stronger than him. This would add some credence to at least some of Super Saiyan Gods' power still being present in all of Goku's forms. Otherwise, the logic wouldn't follow.

Intellectually dishonest right off the batt, okay. No, I believe more in actions than simple words, Enraged Vegeta proved himself better than his regular forms (not his divine forms, though) from afterwards and so on.

Trunks is a Saiyan hybrid who went from below Super Saiyan 2 Goku to battling opponents that could give Blue Goku a hard time. And, we see Trunks growing rapidly stronger within his Super Saiyan Rage form. Your argument isn't a proper counterargument because Goku and Vegeta as we know in Z cannot get rapidly stronger through rage but that's not the case in Super where it is firmly established that Goku and Vegeta's power can rise exponentially in battle. Super operates under different rules so referencing Z isn't an appropriate depiction of a character's abilities in Super.

That's a different discussion and I'd rather not veer away from the current discussion.

That's something that have a strong narrative charge against, as the whole Episode 57 have, so no, that isn't evidence. Goku through anger alone became stronger than Freeza by going SSJ, so the anger concept has always been there. Super is still a continuation of DBZ and have to follow its logic, it's not a completely different continuation or that has nothing to do with canon, so no.

Well, we were discussing about how much valid is SSJ3 Gotenks feat is and how Toei portrays it, but if you don't have any counter, then I'm fine with that.