Hypothetical Buu Saga Fight

[Natasha Romanoff]

Been quite busy, my bad for the late response. But yeah you misinterpreted both Buuhan's and Buutenks' premise, Buutenks was holding back that it's not even funny, next time you should show the whole fight instead of out of context pages, this is the Manga, so it's not long.

He could just be holding back when Gohan was weakened, but not at the beginning of the fight. Otherwise, how could Old Kaioshin or Goku tell how strong he is and what is needed to defeat him?

 

[Hitrule]

He could just be holding back when Gohan was weakened, but not at the beginning of the fight. Otherwise, how could Old Kaioshin or Goku tell how strong he is and what is needed to defeat him?

Im new around here, how do you place images with that "spoiler" cover or whatever so I can post what I need to show you?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Im new around here, how do you place images with that "spoiler" cover or whatever so I can post what I need to show you?

This is just an example:
Step 1: Enter in the three points in which shows link and image

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Step 2: Then you have to click in the option of the eye, then this will appear:

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Step 3: Upload the image, for example

Spoiler

 

[Hitrule]

He could just be holding back when Gohan was weakened, but not at the beginning of the fight. Otherwise, how could Old Kaioshin or Goku tell how strong he is and what is needed to defeat him?

Beginning of the fight too, literally as soon as the fight starts the battle was in Buutenks' favor, before the fight started he even remarked how he's gonna pummel Gohan and enjoy it.

Spoiler

Nothing but smiles and having fun, laughing. Purposely taking his time, proof is him later on contradicting his first statement of “I have to hurry up” by playing with Gohan asking him “Are you hiding, you know you can't beat me right?” instead of going with his word of having limited time.

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Next, taking his time, taunting Gohan, a whole lot of “Hee Hee” in this fight for him to “I have to hurry up” it's not like he's putting effort into this fight, no effort in his attacks, no trying to kill Gohan, no sweating when dodging attacks, he's got him a nice punching bag.

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Why isn't he just taking Gohan out? I'm basically showing you the full context and fight here, so make sure you read every panel and everything that I'm saying.

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Take a look at the bottom left, he literally says “I still have 10 minutes left. I WANT to ENJOY MYSELF.” Ultimate Gohan can't do jackshit to him even at his highest effort, when Buutenks casually knocks his blast away, a cocky ass smile on his face yet again, he's not worried not one bit.

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Lastly, more fucking around, no worries at all, damn near pulling some Kid Buu shit, and regarding my Metamoran Gokuhan Vs Buutenks fight, Buutenks knows about the power of Fusion (for all he knew, he was expecting the same level of increase from the Potara), I didn't say he'd win, rather he'd be up there with it hence his “But why take a chance?” statement, most likely would have been a Super Buu Vs SSJ3 Gotenks all over again (power gap wise at least). Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.

 

[Papasmurf]

Arguing with Natasha is a waste of time. He'll just move goalposts and insist that your arguments are weak without any backing.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Beginning of the fight too, literally as soon as the fight starts the battle was in Buutenks' favor, before the fight started he even remarked how he's gonna pummel Gohan and enjoy it.

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View attachment 2982

"Enjoy" can mean many distinct things. But that's not related if at all to things related to power or playing. Kid Buu was enjoying making fun of Goku & Vegeta, yet nothing implies he wasn't going all-out. But yeah, with this he is making notion of him making use of his limitless stamina to eventually gain the advantage.

With enjoying he only means to humiliate him due to what he did to him earlier.

Nothing but smiles and having fun, laughing. Purposely taking his time, proof is him later on contradicting his first statement of “I have to hurry up” by playing with Gohan asking him “Are you hiding, you know you can't beat me right?” instead of going with his word of having limited time.

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View attachment 2983

Smiling isn't neccesarily having fun and/or holding back. Cell showed to be smiling while launching a FP Kamehameha twice against Gohan, yet he did try his best.

So facial expressions has nothing to do with how a character either going all-out or holding back. Many characters in a suppressed state shows sign of anger and other characters at full power shows signs of smiling and things like that.

But, you have proved my point, Buu needs to depower Gohan step by step by collective damage in order to entirely put him down.

Next, taking his time, taunting Gohan, a whole lot of “Hee Hee” in this fight for him to “I have to hurry up” it's not like he's putting effort into this fight, no effort in his attacks, no trying to kill Gohan, no sweating when dodging attacks, he's got him a nice punching bag.

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View attachment 2984

Same again, he is depowering Gohan little by little so he eventually could put him down and making him enter in agony. Even if he tried his best he wouldn't be doing any better.

Why isn't he just taking Gohan out? I'm basically showing you the full context and fight here, so make sure you read every panel and everything that I'm saying.

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View attachment 2985

So? Once again does that prove? Yes, he is making use of his limitless stamina and taking his time torturing a Gohan whose power went down.

Take a look at the bottom left, he literally says “I still have 10 minutes left. I WANT to ENJOY MYSELF.” Ultimate Gohan can't do jackshit to him even at his highest effort, when Buutenks casually knocks his blast away, a cocky ass smile on his face yet again, he's not worried not one bit.

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View attachment 2987

Lastly, more fucking around, no worries at all, damn near pulling some Kid Buu shit, and regarding my Metamoran Gokuhan Vs Buutenks fight, Buutenks knows about the power of Fusion (for all he knew, he was expecting the same level of increase from the Potara), I didn't say he'd win, rather he'd be up there with it hence his “But why take a chance?” statement, most likely would have been a Super Buu Vs SSJ3 Gotenks all over again (power gap wise at least). Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.

Many characters has said wanting to enjoy themselves, but they go all-out too, so that generic phrase isn't leading us anywhere, having say this if you have an statement which tell us "I'm playing around" "I'm going full power", then that would serve to the purpose of the argument you're trying to make, but in this occasion I have to say no. Sorry, appreciate the effort you put in searching all of this, but you're ignoring many factors: Buu limitless stamina, the fact that he has to constantly depower Gohan, how he thinks he can one-shot Goku, yet fail to kill Gohan with an Galactic Donuts + a Kamehameha (which would tell us Gohan and Buu gap wouldn't be quite big), among many other things. If you could at least respond to any of this, you could hope on establishing that you're right, but in this case, it is not.

Buu also said he could just add Gotenks' power and Piccolo's intelligence, no mention of any further power-up was done or establish in the story, so, there's no way Buu could be at least twice over Gohan.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Arguing with Natasha is a waste of time. He'll just move goalposts and insist that your arguments are weak without any backing.

Have you ever thought of calming your orangutan senses? You're the first one to call anyone else name and the last one to actually make an actual or proper counterargument with a little bit of logic (which I'm still waiting for that day to come).

 

[Hitrule]

"Enjoy" can mean many distinct things. But that's not related if at all to things related to power or playing. Kid Buu was enjoying making fun of Goku & Vegeta, yet nothing implies he wasn't going all-out. But yeah, with this he is making notion of him making use of his limitless stamina to eventually gain the advantage.

With enjoying he only means to humiliate him due to what he did to him earlier.

Smiling isn't neccesarily having fun and/or holding back. Cell showed to be smiling while launching a FP Kamehameha twice against Gohan, yet he did try his best.

So facial expressions has nothing to do with how a character either going all-out or holding back. Many characters in a suppressed state shows sign of anger and other characters at full power shows signs of smiling and things like that.

But, you have proved my point, Buu needs to depower Gohan step by step by collective damage in order to entirely put him down.

Same again, he is depowering Gohan little by little so he eventually could put him down and making him enter in agony. Even if he tried his best he wouldn't be doing any better.

So? Once again does that prove? Yes, he is making use of his limitless stamina and taking his time torturing a Gohan whose power went down.

Many characters has said wanting to enjoy themselves, but they go all-out too, so that generic phrase isn't leading us anywhere, having say this if you have an statement which tell us "I'm playing around" "I'm going full power", then that would serve to the purpose of the argument you're trying to make, but in this occasion I have to say no. Sorry, appreciate the effort you put in searching all of this, but you're ignoring many factors: Buu limitless stamina, the fact that he has to constantly depower Gohan, how he thinks he can one-shot Goku, yet fail to kill Gohan with an Galactic Donuts + a Kamehameha (which would tell us Gohan and Buu gap wouldn't be quite big), among many other things. If you could at least respond to any of this, you could hope on establishing that you're right, but in this case, it is not.

Buu also said he could just add Gotenks' power and Piccolo's intelligence, no mention of any further power-up was done or establish in the story, so, there's no way Buu could be at least twice over Gohan.

Absorbing isn't addition, that's one factor, factor 2 is Buuhan being a fusion level above Gohan, Buutenks not being that much weaker than Buuhan as evident of Gotenks not being many times weaker than Gohan. And you rebrought up that Galactic Donut thing as if it has significance when I just went over the first time that Buutenks wasn't bloodlusted and was fucking around.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Absorbing isn't addition, that's one factor,

Absorbing is addition because he just say he'll ADD Gotenks' power to his, as well as it is stated in guidebooks that being the case.

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

If was not summative, why bother for Gotenks to transform into SSJ3 and not just the kids alone?

factor 2 is Buuhan being a fusion level above Gohan,

I don't understand this.

Buutenks not being that much weaker than Buuhan as evident of Gotenks not being many times weaker than Gohan.

There's somewhat a significant gap, but thanks for share it: Gotenks Buu only increased his power when absorbed Gohan and was always at his limit

And you rebrought up that Galactic Donut thing as if it has significance when I just went over the first time that Buutenks wasn't bloodlusted and was fucking around.

Buu tried to kill Gohan with that, that goes against him not being bloodlusted.

When he can one-shot someone by regular means, it'd be no different story of him doing it with Goku.

 

[Hitrule]

Absorbing is addition because he just say he'll ADD Gotenks' power to his, as well as it is stated in guidebooks that being the case.

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

If was not summative, why bother for Gotenks to transform into SSJ3 and not just the kids alone?

I don't understand this.

There's somewhat a significant gap, but thanks for share it: Gotenks Buu only increased his power when absorbed Gohan and was always at his limit

Buu tried to kill Gohan with that, that goes against him not being bloodlusted.

When he can one-shot someone by regular means, it'd be no different story of him doing it with Goku.

Because the stronger the Absorbee, the stronger the result, just like Fusion.

Spoiler

The word Used for Add is たせば (tasube) does not have a direct translation, it's a word derived from the word たす called translates to add たせば, however it can mean either Add, in terms of Numbers or Add, in terms of putting stacking on top of another.

So the Japanese not does imply that Absorption is just addition of Power, nor does it imply that its a minimum requirement to surpass Gohan.

A semi Literal Translation can be "with that kid's power, and if I were to add the brains of that guy they called Piccolo's on top of that...".

It can be interpreted as "If I Had Gotenks' Power and Piccolo's Brain.

So this statement from its Original Japanese is not proof Absorbtion being Addition (A+B).

Spoiler

Even if you wanted to use that as a "Bare Minimum" Scale it still wouldn't work, because there are way to many implications saying it's a form of Multiplication as Buuhan shouldn't be too far off from Buutenks in Power as Gohan isn't multiple times stronger than Gotenks (unless you can prove otherwise ) and we know that Base Vegetto who is at least Goku × Vegeta () is around the level of Buuhan.

A significant gap yes (otherwise Gohan wouldn't had pummeled Super Buu who's Gotenks' equal give or take) but nothing showing it's anything beyond a 2× Gap.

He tried to kill Gohan with that yet still fucks with him and kills time because he wants to have fun after the Fact...

I don't understand your last sentence? O.O

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Because the stronger the Absorbee, the stronger the result, just like Fusion.

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View attachment 2989

The word Used for Add is たせば (tasube) does not have a direct translation, it's a word derived from the word たす called translates to add たせば, however it can mean either Add, in terms of Numbers or Add, in terms of putting stacking on top of another.

So the Japanese not does imply that Absorption is just addition of Power, nor does it imply that its a minimum requirement to surpass Gohan.

Except that Buu by himself admitted that had it only be the kids without Super Gotenks, things won't change, so it doesn't work under the premise that was not the required value to actually putting himself on top of Gohan:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Regardless, if it were more than an addition it'd be like Gogeta said to Freeza "our powers just doesn't add, but are significantly greater" or something like that.

A semi Literal Translation can be "with that kid's power, and if I were to add the brains of that guy they called Piccolo's on top of that...".

It can be interpreted as "If I Had Gotenks' Power and Piccolo's Brain.

So this statement from its Original Japanese is not proof Absorbtion being Addition (A+B).

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View attachment 2990

Even if you wanted to use that as a "Bare Minimum" Scale it still wouldn't work, because there are way to many implications saying it's a form of Multiplication as Buuhan shouldn't be too far off from Buutenks in Power as Gohan isn't multiple times stronger than Gotenks (unless you can prove otherwise ) and we know that Base Vegetto who is at least Goku × Vegeta () is around the level of Buuhan.

Absorptions doesn't work in the multiplicative way, if that was the case how Super Buu with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo comes out weaker than Gohan. How strong does Gohan has to be (in relation to Buu) so that could work?

Gohan and Gotenks aren't too distant between each other, as their gap is smaller than the one Gohan and Buu have which is similar to SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell.

How Vegetto could be the multiplication of Goku x Vegeta if that would make him millions of times stronger so in base he'd one shot Buu. It's clear that fusion doesn't have an established multiplier.

A significant gap yes (otherwise Gohan wouldn't had pummeled Super Buu who's Gotenks' equal give or take) but nothing showing it's anything beyond a 2× Gap.

He tried to kill Gohan with that yet still fucks with him and kills time because he wants to have fun after the Fact...

I don't understand your last sentence? O.O

Yeah, my bad in the last one. Buu claimed he could one-shot Goku, but then fusion wore down, he doesn't watch himself capable of doing the same to Gohan.

So, it doesn't mean Buu was playing the whole time against Gohan.

 

[Hitrule]

Except that Buu by himself admitted that had it only be the kids without Super Gotenks, things won't change, so it doesn't work under the premise that was not the required value to actually putting himself on top of Gohan:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Regardless, if it were more than an addition it'd be like Gogeta said to Freeza "our powers just doesn't add, but are significantly greater" or something like that.

Absorptions doesn't work in the multiplicative way, if that was the case how Super Buu with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo comes out weaker than Gohan. How strong does Gohan has to be (in relation to Buu) so that could work?

Gohan and Gotenks aren't too distant between each other, as their gap is smaller than the one Gohan and Buu have which is similar to SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell.

How Vegetto could be the multiplication of Goku x Vegeta if that would make him millions of times stronger so in base he'd one shot Buu. It's clear that fusion doesn't have an established multiplier.

Yeah, my bad in the last one. Buu claimed he could one-shot Goku, but then fusion wore down, he doesn't watch himself capable of doing the same to Gohan.

So, it doesn't mean Buu was playing the whole time against Gohan.

No shit, because how strong Fusion makes them (multiplies their powers together, do the math and figure out that wide of a gap).

Never once was Absorption said in the series that it gives a specific amount of power unlike Fusion. Unlike Absorption is the one that doesn't have a set increase, it depends on the circumstances, absorbee's being, and yes, plot (ie. Cell & Buu). It could be small or big, this is all based on its oppostion's it's used against and feats.

SSJ2 Gohan and Perfect Cell's gap is way bigger than Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu, you gotta start looking at the series from a wider lense my guy.

Then it makes him millions of times stronger, doesn't mean he'd one shot Buu, it just means Absorbing Gohan made him that strong (vise versa), as shown.

It's very clear Fusion have a set multiplier. No, it has a set equation but the result(s) depends on the products provided.

Doesn't mean he was playing around the whole time against Gohan yet that's 'exactly' what's happened, the mental gymnastics are useless my guy, give it up.

 

[SIAD]

@MikaelHarding What do you think of this topic?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Hitrule

That's the thing, Fusion is also said to be A x B in Metamoran side too. So, how much weak does Goten and Trunks require to be in order for them to be stomped by Fat Buu in Base XD? Who is less than 4x over SSJ2 Goku? Considering that Goten & Trunks by themselves are at least somewhat close to Gohan? XD

Spoiler

Cell's absorptions work in a different way because he was programmed to absorb both Androids, it is portrayed thst Perfect Cell's increase is far bigger than Semi Cell's despite of absorbing the weaker Android XD.

For all we know, Super Buu with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo is useless against Gohan as stated by Buu himself and told to us by Goku, but with someone somewhat close to his power (SSJ3 Gotenks) Buu comes on top of Gohan, you felt yourself uncapable of addressing that.

No, Ultimate Gohan vs Buu reflects SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell, if you compare both fights you'd be able to realize it, you stupid simian.

If Fusion is that strong for a * b to be the case how come Kibitoshin is that weak? As well as Merged Zamasu?

Yes, he was toying when Gohan was weakened, he has to depower him little by little, and no, I'll not treat you like a human because you haven't recently behaved like such, but like an animal like the other orangutan without neurones called @Kenshi.

 

[Hitrule]

@Hitrule

That's the thing, Fusion is also said to be A x B in Metamoran side too. So, how much weak does Goten and Trunks require to be in order for them to be stomped by Fat Buu in Base XD? Who is less than 4x over SSJ2 Goku? Considering that Goten & Trunks by themselves are at least somewhat close to Gohan? XD

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View attachment 2991

Cell's absorptions work in a different way because he was programmed to absorb both Androids, it is portrayed thst Perfect Cell's increase is far bigger than Semi Cell's despite of absorbing the weaker Android XD.

For all we know, Super Buu with Goten, Trunks and Piccolo is useless against Gohan as stated by Buu himself and told to us by Goku, but with someone somewhat close to his power (SSJ3 Gotenks) Buu comes on top of Gohan, you felt yourself uncapable of addressing that.

No, Ultimate Gohan vs Buu reflects SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell, if you compare both fights you'd be able to realize it, you stupid simian.

If Fusion is that strong for a * b to be the case how come Kibitoshin is that weak? As well as Merged Zamasu?

Yes, he was toying when Gohan was weakened, he has to depower him little by little, and no, I'll not treat you like a human because you haven't recently behaved like such, but like an animal like the other orangutan without neurones called @Kenshi.

A lot weaker, goes to show you don't know how multiplication works. All it means is that Goku and Buu are just that far ahead of the others, Goten is around what? A rusty Cell Games Gohan? Bringing that comparison up was all irrelevant.

You proved my point, Absorption basically depends on the plot and situation.

Uh, I agree with that because that was literally stated and implied. Why would I disagree with something clearly stated? I 'think' you're getting desperate now bro, for what?

It reflects Gohan Vs Cell in the aspect of Gohan being drunk on power, power gap not so much. By that logic, the gaps between Semi Perfect Cell Vs Grade 2 Vegeta, SSJ4 Gogeta Vs Omega Shenron, Super Vegetto Vs Buuhan, are all the same because they all carry the same premise as dominant Hero Vs outclassed Villain. But we know in those situations the gaps could be 1.3× to thousands of times of a difference. And no need to insult, that's one thing we not finna do, know what I mean?

Kibitoshin is that weak because the others are just that strong, not hard to grasp. Merged Zamasu was strong, why bring him up?

What the hell is that last paragraph even about? You like arguing or something? Why? (Edit: didn't realize you were tagging someone else, my bad).

 

[Papasmurf]

Guy can't even spell neurons and insults people's intelligence. I told you Natasha was a waste of time.

 

[Dagon]

Because the stronger the Absorbee, the stronger the result, just like Fusion.

Even if you wanted to use that as a "Bare Minimum" Scale it still wouldn't work, because there are way to many implications saying it's a form of Multiplication as Buuhan shouldn't be too far off from Buutenks in Power as Gohan isn't multiple times stronger than Gotenks (unless you can prove otherwise ) and we know that Base Vegetto who is at least Goku × Vegeta () is around the level of Buuhan.

A significant gap yes (otherwise Gohan wouldn't had pummeled Super Buu who's Gotenks' equal give or take) but nothing showing it's anything beyond a 2× Gap.

Goku x Vegeta, seriously?

You do realize that the scaling system changes the outcome of that fusion formula, right?

If using battle power x battle power, base Vegetto would be monstrous. Using Kiri x Kiri, not nearly as much.

That's why guide stuff like that should be taken as hyperbole... and with a grain of salt.

And are you seriously suggesting Buu absorptions are exponential? And to what end? What difference does it make?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Kenshi

So, you're going to nitpick one little letter of all a text in order to prove my intelligence? Yes, we are not in an exam of ortography, so, why bother scripting correct? Haven't you realize how lame your attempt to prove me wrong is? Or is it too much for your simian intellect to understand?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

A lot weaker, goes to show you don't know how multiplication works. All it means is that Goku and Buu are just that far ahead of the others, Goten is around what? A rusty Cell Games Gohan? Bringing that comparison up was all irrelevant.

For the simplicity sake, let's assume that Goten and Trunks are 3,500,000 x 3,600,000. Gotenks' base form would end up being vast, yet he is still stomped by Fat Buu, are you going to tell me that Fat Buu is over 3 million times stronger than Goten and Trunks or Gohan and by extension Goku is too?

You proved my point, Absorption basically depends on the plot and situation.

Uh, I agree with that because that was literally stated and implied. Why would I disagree with something clearly stated? I 'think' you're getting desperate now bro, for what?

Then, how the hell, absorptions can be multiplied if Goten x Trunks x Piccolo x Super Buu would end up vastly surpassing Gohan? And it is actually proven that Buu had to absorb someone who is close to his power in order to actually put himself on top of Gohan? Can't you realize that absorption is simply A + B in Buu's case?

It reflects Gohan Vs Cell in the aspect of Gohan being drunk on power, power gap not so much. By that logic, the gaps between Semi Perfect Cell Vs Grade 2 Vegeta, SSJ4 Gogeta Vs Omega Shenron, Super Vegetto Vs Buuhan, are all the same because they all carry the same premise as dominant Hero Vs outclassed Villain. But we know in those situations the gaps could be 1.3× to thousands of times of a difference. And no need to insult, that's one thing we not finna do, know what I mean?

Cell and Buu's reaction towards Gohan's power, how they admit inferiority towards Gohan and the artwork pretty much implies that Toriyama intended for Gohan vs Super Buu to be the same gap as Gohan vs Cell. Non ironically Super Vegetto vs Gohan Buu and Super Vegeta vs Semi Cell actually are very similar too, which is clearly the base of the scalling. If you behave like the other stupid, I'll not treat you kindly.

Kibitoshin is that weak because the others are just that strong, not hard to grasp. Merged Zamasu was strong, why bring him up?

Not really, he's pissweak to even be of help against Buu being with Goku and Kid Buu is too much for him. Only anime Merged Zamasu was, manga Zamasu was trash.

 

[Father]

Guy can't even spell neurons and insults people's intelligence. I told you Natasha was a waste of time.

Huehuehue got triggered at you fanbuddy