Is Super Saiyan Blue 10x stronger than Super Saiyan?

Future Warrior

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Captain Cadaver said:
The gap between Base and SSJ doesn't seem to be so great of a game changer, given how it's been utilised in many of the battles featuring both. Goku's performance in base and SSJ against Hit seemed to be far from the 10-50x gap it was suggested to be in Z for the most part, as does Base Gohan being on par with Piccolo during the ToP despite not being suggested to be tiers above the other two Saiyans in base.

I always feel that fight is generally misinterpreted, which isn't meant to demonstrate Goku's power but rather his cognitive skills in battle. It's even implied in the anime that Hit wasn't serious against him initially.

The same can be said of 3 sources infodumping the laws of time travel in the manga's FT Arc (The teacher, Whis and the narrator) in the same scene, yet they still went with that when one would suffice. Toyotaro simply seems to like pointing out the obvious.

I'm not aware of that scene, sorry. That example isn't that relevant to the current discussion imo.

Fact is, Beerus knew only a Super Saiyan Blue would be able to tangle with Hit based on his reaction to SSG Goku beating up Hit and asked Whis to explain what went wrong. I don't think that scene can be worked around beyond the author's original intention.

So we have 2 scenarios. Either Toyotaro failed miserably at writing a consistent story or Hit was holding back more than he did against Blue Vegeta (Likely both)

Vegeta can still be superior and keep things consistent. The gap between he and Initial Hit just needs to be smaller than that between SSG and SSB.
Hit's reaction likely has more to do with Goku's general character interesting him, something made obvious by the end of their fight. Taunting his opponent in general, regardless of the power difference, seems out of character for Hit after all.

Whis said only opponents that are equal to or weaker than Hit can the time-skip work against them. You could argue that Vegeta was stronger but not by a considerable amount (I'd disagree that that's what is meant to be conveyed in that fight), but that interpretation only exists when trying to argue for SSJ being superior to Initial Hit.

Furthermore, Whis explicitly stated when Goku went God that ''he closed the gap that existed between the two'', which gives us a hint that Goku never really had a chance at SSJ1.
 

CroMagnumDVH

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I'll be proving here why the Ritual SsjG Multiplier is far above the stacked one. Now guys, read every single information without leaving ANYTHING out. Also, if you wish to quote me for something, please make sure you have read every single thing here. I want to know your opinions on this. So, enjoy






First of, we need to mention that the SsjG Ritual pushed Goku's power far higher than he could imagine, where even Goku said that there are many possibilities that are open for him right now that previously weren't possible or wasn't aware of it. This speaks enough to suggest that the multiplier of SsjG is indeed very great. It pushed him so high that his clash with Beerus shook the universe and was about to destroy the universe with unknown number of clashes. Ssj3 Goku has never been shown to accidentally do that using his power. However, Universe 6 arc implies that the Multiplier is not that high after the ritual. Toyotaro said that RoF Frieza is the strongest enemy Goku has fought, which would mean he's above any counterpart of Buuhan's who pretty much troubled Ssj Vegito, so at least we know that the multiplier is higher than 10x Ssj3 by far if we make the analysis ourselves.

Let's start slowly and prove it. SsjB Vegeta lost alot of stamina and couldn't maintain his power, ending up bullied by Hit:


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Hit > SsjB Vegeta Post Stamina Loss (All of this chain is based on the Universe 6 Arc scaling of the Manga)

Yes, we know Goku fought Hit as a Super Saiyan by predicting what Hit will do, but he also manages to fight Hit in instances where he could dodge his attacks and block so many of them using brute force. Hit is more serious with Goku than SsjB Vegeta since he removed his hands from his pocket and started fighting seriously. They traded pure blows, yet weaker blows from Hit were shitting Vegeta:

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In fact, there's absolutely no mention of Power. Hit is unable to blitz Goku with his pure speed, and nor is he able to hurt Goku by landing attacks at Goku, with Goku in turn blocking them. This would mean that Hit and Ssj Goku are relative to each other in terms of power but Hit takes the win because of his Time skip, while Goku's stamina would decrease. Vados doesn't say Goku is inferior to Hit, she says that the ONLY determining factor of the match is Stamina and which one will lose stamina first and not that one character is weaker than the other. In contrary to that, everytime someone superior comes to the like, it would be noted or implied. Old Kai even thought that the fight could go on forever if no one's stamina depleted first, yet if Hit was far above Goku, any attack which would've landed on Goku would have decimated him, yet non of that occurred:

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Goku thought that things will be easy and that he'll succeed in beating Hit despite knowing that Hit's attacks where powerful enough to hurt depleted SsjB Vegeta. So Goku thought he'd win against Hit overall but he realized it's harder than he thought due to the stamina issue which would mean Ssj Goku in the Universe 6 arc is very relative to the Hit who bullied SsjB Vegeta who was suppressed, yet Goku fought that same Hit and a Hit who's even more serious against Goku than with Vegeta:

1b2b20bc9575374b392f5774346601937436dc53r1-662-2048v2_hq.jpg


In fact, Beerus says that Ssj Goku > Hit, but it's because of Hit's time skip that Goku will lose more power. The Viz translation supports this very well, where Beerus says that Goku's power is far above Hit's, yet SsjB Vegeta's power is absolute garbage to Hit's and not just time skipping, he wasn't able to tank any of Hit's attacks yet Goku was able to survive them and move on while hit is being more serious with Goku than Vegeta:

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Ssj Goku >= Hit > SsjB Vegeta Post Stamina Loss

What's amusing is that Whis says Vegeta hasn't exerted even one tenth of his SsjB Power, which would mean Vegeta used around one tenth of SsjB's power yet he was still inferior to Super Saiyan Goku:

dc8ff7986ae5525e883b7943d2fa2f9584e1b717r1-510-212v2_hq.jpg


You might start saying that Beerus said SsjG Goku > SsjB Vegeta and not Ssj, but that's utterly wrong. Beerus doesn't say anything about Ssj Goku not being above SsjB Vegeta, and Whis says that Hit's Timeskip works on only the people who are near Hit's power or below him. So you can be above Hit by a bit and it still would work. The only one who was stated to have surpassed Hit by then is Goku and not Vegeta, and a lowball would be SsjB Vegeta drained = Ssj Goku Max (I'll be using that lowball):

3bc9bb4feb3a6c06b38cda26d0337b11494f8f85r1-2048-1914v2_hq.jpg


SsjG Goku > Ssj Goku >= SsjB Vegeta Post Stamina Loss >= Hit Suppressed

So 1/10th the amount of SsjB Vegeta is a bit weaker than Ssj Goku who's is supposedly equal to Vegeta as well. You might say that this is wrong because this is a small difference when it clearly is above the previous Super Saiyan forms. Wrong, because the SsjG form can be astronomically above the previous forms yet still hhave a low multiplier, since values in Dragon Ball don't scale linearly at all and therefore this could still make sense

Some people might say that the Tournament of Power implies SsjG Goku to be far above what I just said but this is already covered in the above part where even small differences in multipliers could mean astronomical increases. Terms such as "far stronger" or "way above him" and such are unquantifiable since you have no clue how much stronger when it comes to values, therefore such implications are unusable here at all since all they tell us is that they are more powerful than before, without quantifying an amount, and this doesn't contradict my post at all. At the very least my case is supported.







This post establishes the fact that Ritual SsjG Multiplier is higher than the Stacked SsjG Multiplier Goku uses U6 arc and further. Since SsjG Goku u6 arc > SsjG Goku BoG arc, it would mean that Base Goku is far stronger than regular Buu Saga Tiers as well if we follow this
 
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