Is this proof that Freeza>19?

[withheldforprivacy]

When Goku recovered from the virus, Krillin asks Goku (about Cell): ''This thing is even stronger than Freeza.
Are you scared or excited?''
In other words, Krillin treats Goku as if he's never faced anyone stronger than Freeza up to this point.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I don't think it has to mean much. They trained for opponents that surpass Freeza, so whether Freeza really is stronger or not doesn't matter, since they themselves'd (Goku, Vegeta & Piccolo) be stronger than Freeza anyways.

 

[Papasmurf]

Freeza got mentioned in the Boo arc too, and Kuririn also said earlier that he thought the artificial humans weren't any weaker than he believed they would be. #19 isn't weaker than SSJ Trunks (Yardrat) let alone Freeza.

 

[Kyo]

He also ignores #17 and #18 and only speaks of Cell as though Cell was the only one of the new adversaries who surpassed Freeza, so I wouldn't think about it too much.

 

[Papasmurf]

Perfect Cell (expected) > Freeza > 17/18

 

[withheldforprivacy]

He also ignores #17 and #18 and only speaks of Cell as though Cell was the only one of the new adversaries who surpassed Freeza, so I wouldn't think about it too much.

I also don't think much, i'm just saying Goku had faced 19, but not 17/18.

 

[Lightsworn]

He also ignores #17 and #18 and only speaks of Cell as though Cell was the only one of the new adversaries who surpassed Freeza, so I wouldn't think about it too much.

17 and 18 are acknowledged in their conversation. Also Cell has the ability to absorb them and to take them out of the equation which is why he is percieved as the bigger threat. So yeah Krillin's statement is an indication that Freeza is stronger than 19 and 20, along with Tien's and Kami's.

 

[kriss-]

Frieza ~ 120

Piccolo ~ 60

Android 19 Post ~ 50
Android 20 Post ~ 40

Android 20 Pre ~ 30
Android 19 Pre ~ 25

Why not, it makes Piccolo's increases alot less bloated.

 

[Pyro]

Ignoring/minimizing statements and implications can deflate bloat for any amount of character if you want it to.

 

[Kyo]

17 and 18 are acknowledged in their conversation. Also Cell has the ability to absorb them and to take them out of the equation which is why he is percieved as the bigger threat. So yeah Krillin's statement is an indication that Freeza is stronger than 19 and 20, along with Tien's and Kami's.

If anything, that would only strengthen the #17/#18 < Freeza implication, if they were brought up in the same breath as Cell, yet not even compared to Freeza a page later, but we know that's nonsense. Krillin's also speaking in present tense, as in "the current threat surpasses Freeza." Even if he was considering that Cell would be the bigger threat in the long run, that doesn't change the fact #17/#18 are similarly threatening if not more so in present time. I just don't think the statement says anything worthwhile at all. Even from a story perspective it's pretty meaningless since Goku went in expecting > Freeza level foes. Plus as Kenshi said, Krillin also said earlier that he thought the artificial humans weren't any weaker than he believed they would be.

As for Ten and Kami's statements - those are implications, I'll give you that much. But I find them far easier to dismiss than the other side/the evidence on the other side to be more set in stone.

 

[Lightsworn]

17 and 18 are acknowledged in their conversation. Also Cell has the ability to absorb them and to take them out of the equation which is why he is percieved as the bigger threat. So yeah Krillin's statement is an indication that Freeza is stronger than 19 and 20, along with Tien's and Kami's.

If anything, that would only strengthen the #17/#18 < Freeza implication, if they were brought up in the same breath as Cell, yet not even compared to Freeza a page later, but we know that's nonsense. Krillin's also speaking in present tense, as in "the current threat surpasses Freeza." Even if he was considering that Cell would be the bigger threat in the long run, that doesn't change the fact #17/#18 are similarly threatening if not more so in present time. I just don't think the statement says anything worthwhile at all. Even from a story perspective it's pretty meaningless since Goku went in expecting > Freeza level foes. Plus as Kenshi said, Krillin also said earlier that he thought the artificial humans weren't any weaker than he believed they would be.

As for Ten and Kami's statements - those are implications, I'll give you that much. But I find them far easier to dismiss than the other side/the evidence on the other side to be more set in stone.

If Cell eliminates them from the equation, then they wouldn't cross his mind, which is why Krilllin mentions the next strongest villain, Freeza. We know for a fact that Freeza isn't stronger than them. So instead of assuming Krillin has lost it, or "dismissing" it, we need to pay attention to context. Cell is the next big threat now, not the androids, Kami states this and it's Piccolo's main concern now alog with the others. The androids will be part of Cell, hence why Krillin mentions Cell is stronger than Freeza.

When did Krillin state this? If he really did, then it wouldn't even be a debate anymore.

The point isn't to "dismiss" statements, you're supposed to make all of them work. By isolating only a few statements you can come come to the conclusion that 19 and 20 are Ssj tier, but the complete narrative context does not support that, especially considering the whole situation just turns out to be a delusion and not left for the readers to soundly trust.

 

[Kyo]

If Cell eliminates them from the equation, then they wouldn't cross his mind, which is why Krilllin mentions the next strongest villain, Freeza. We know for a fact that Freeza isn't stronger than them. So instead of assuming Krillin has lost it, or "dismissing" it, we need to pay attention to context. Cell is the next big threat now, not the androids, Kami states this and it's Piccolo's main concern now alog with the others. The androids will be part of Cell, hence why Krillin mentions Cell is stronger than Freeza.

When did Krillin state this? If he really did, then it wouldn't even be a debate anymore.

The point isn't to "dismiss" statements, you're supposed to make all of them work. By isolating only a few statements you can come come to the conclusion that 19 and 20 are Ssj tier, but the complete narrative context does not support that, especially considering the whole situation just turns out to be a delusion and not left for the readers to soundly trust.

The key word there is "if." Cell has not eliminated them yet and they've been mentioned by name as additional threats, therefore they are still on his mind.

I was honestly just taking Kenshi's word for it, so you'll have to ask him. I do recall a statement in which Yamcha claims that the androids are just as bad if not worse or something along those lines (worse because of energy sucking, not power), but I can't seem to locate it in the strength checker.

You misunderstand. I don't dismiss their statements. I dismiss a particular implication associated with their statements, and not without reason. I dismiss it because I can explain them another way, and because I find that the other interpretation goes against my interpretation of the overall narrative. This isn't "picking and choosing" as one might put it, this is exactly what you've just described. I admit that I worded it poorly, however.

 

[Lightsworn]

If Cell eliminates them from the equation, then they wouldn't cross his mind, which is why Krilllin mentions the next strongest villain, Freeza. We know for a fact that Freeza isn't stronger than them. So instead of assuming Krillin has lost it, or "dismissing" it, we need to pay attention to context. Cell is the next big threat now, not the androids, Kami states this and it's Piccolo's main concern now alog with the others. The androids will be part of Cell, hence why Krillin mentions Cell is stronger than Freeza.

When did Krillin state this? If he really did, then it wouldn't even be a debate anymore.

The point isn't to "dismiss" statements, you're supposed to make all of them work. By isolating only a few statements you can come come to the conclusion that 19 and 20 are Ssj tier, but the complete narrative context does not support that, especially considering the whole situation just turns out to be a delusion and not left for the readers to soundly trust.

The key word there is "if." Cell has not eliminated them yet and they've been mentioned by name as additional threats, therefore they are still on his mind.

I was honestly just taking Kenshi's word for it, so you'll have to ask him. I do recall a statement in which Yamcha claims that the androids are just as bad if not worse or something along those lines (worse because of energy sucking, not power), but I can't seem to locate it in the strength checker.

You misunderstand. I don't dismiss their statements. I dismiss a particular implication associated with their statements, and not without reason. I dismiss it because I can explain them another way, and because I find that the other interpretation goes against my interpretation of the overall narrative. This isn't "picking and choosing" as one might put it, this is exactly what you've just described. I admit that I worded it poorly, however.

If you have another interpretation to Krillin's quote then what is it? Why is he using Freeza of all people to hype up Cell? I've given my reason why he doesn't mean Freeza > 17/18. I'll say it again just in case. Cell can potentially take out the andoids, so Cell is their new biggest threat, he can be grouped with the androids. Since 17 and 18 are acknowledged in the conversation we know Krillin isn't saying Freeza > 17 and 18. That's the conclusion you'd come to if you don't pay attention to the context. So what's your interpretation? Freeza is still being used in the context of power within a dire situation. Not 19 or 20. So why should we assume 19 and 20 are stronger?

 

[Classic Adamas]

Freeza (Second form) >>>>>> Cell > Freeza >>> 19. 2

 

[Clearin]

The original line is "more terrible".
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?â€￾

Essentially he's saying Cell is a bigger threat overall than Freeza was, but not necessary due to just his power. Kind of like how Kid Boo was said to be more dangerous than Super Boo.

The androids, while more powerful than Freeza, aren't really all that terrible. Even in the future timeline they've never left Earth, and haven't wiped out the population in 15+ years.

 

[Kyo]

If you have another interpretation to Krillin's quote then what is it? Why is he using Freeza of all people to hype up Cell?

I don't think it's totally power-related (though it is somewhat power-related, in a way, more on that later). It's more character-related, though that's a bit of a poor way to word it. I think it's more related to Cell's intentions, like Clearin has already said. #17 and #18 are stronger than Freeza and more threatening from purely a power perspective for instance, but they didn't even want to do anything besides have fun and kill one major character.

Think about it. Just the statement on its own. "Terrible" is often a way to describe huge power, but it seems pointless to ask "are you ready to take someone stronger than Freeza?" knowing that Goku had quite literally planned out the last 3 years for exactly that, and yet Kuririn does ask that, so I don't believe it's as concrete as "are you ready to take someone stronger than Freeza?" It adds even less - if you interpret from a pure power sense - when Piccolo had already asked a more effective version of the question earlier: "You ready for these androids?", "I dunno, I'll know when I get there." It already goes without saying that he is excited and afraid of someone stronger than Freeza. Actually, I take that back - it goes with saying, before Goku even trained: http://i.imgur.com/Bxp2AML.jpg

Not everything has to lead to a strict power chain.

I've given my reason why he doesn't mean Freeza > 17/18. I'll say it again just in case. Cell can potentially take out the andoids, so Cell is their new biggest threat, he can be grouped with the androids. Since 17 and 18 are acknowledged in the conversation we know Kuririn isn't saying Freeza > 17 and 18. That's the conclusion you'd come to if you don't pay attention to the context. So what's your interpretation? Freeza is still being used in the context of power within a dire situation. Not 19 or 20. So why should we assume 19 and 20 are stronger?

I'm not saying to assume 19/20 are stronger without evidence, I'm just saying that the line doesn't necessarily mean they are. In fact, if this line was the only piece of evidence about their power, then I would agree with you because then there's just no other option.

Like I said above, I don't see the statement as much of a power statement. It's kind of a power statement, but only in the sense that beating Cell will be challenging to the current set of Z fighters, much like how beating Freeza was a challenge to the past set of Z fighters on Namek, if that makes sense. Otherwise, it's mostly just saying that Cell is an awful villain of comparable status to Freeza, or worse than him, rather. Otherwise it's just a wonky, pointless statement that feels out of place to me.

 

[POOHEAD189]

I don't think it's totally power-related (though it is somewhat power-related, in a way, more on that later). It's more character-related, though that's a bit of a poor way to word it. I think it's more related to Cell's intentions, like Clearin has already said. #17 and #18 are stronger than Freeza and more threatening from purely a power perspective for instance, but they didn't even want to do anything besides have fun and kill one major character.

Think about it. Just the statement on its own. "Terrible" is often a way to describe huge power, but it seems pointless to ask "are you ready to take someone stronger than Freeza?" knowing that Goku had quite literally planned out the last 3 years for exactly that, and yet Kuririn does ask that, so I don't believe it's as concrete as "are you ready to take someone stronger than Freeza?" It adds even less - if you interpret from a pure power sense - when Piccolo had already asked a more effective version of the question earlier: "You ready for these androids?", "I dunno, I'll know when I get there." It already goes without saying that he is excited and afraid of someone stronger than Freeza. Actually, I take that back - it goes with saying, before Goku even trained: http://i.imgur.com/Bxp2AML.jpg

Not everything has to lead to a strict power chain.

THANK YOU. Characters often speak about not only power, but the villains intentions. And also, character's will compare villains to the last "main" villains. I mean people kept referring to Freiza being even stronger than Vegeta, and even though (I don't believe) anyone who said that met Zarbon or the Ginyu force or anything in between and said that, I'm sure that they would have. It's a Toriyama thing to do. Like I'm sure they would compare Buu's power to Cell's, and not Dabura's since Cell is...well...one of the main villains.

 

[Papasmurf]

To be fair Goku didn't know Zarbon or Dodoria at the time when Freeza was mentioned as "a guy that far surpasses Vegeta's power." Although Dodoria and Zarbon were already stronger than base Vegeta from the Saiyan arc anyway.

 

[POOHEAD189]

To be fair Goku didn't know Zarbon or Dodoria at the time when Freeza was mentioned as "a guy that far surpasses Vegeta's power." Although Dodoria and Zarbon were already stronger than base Vegeta from the Saiyan arc anyway.

Yeah I left that disclaimer, but you're right. It just seems like such a DB thing to say regardless though, you know?

 

[Papasmurf]

True, it already started with Kuririn saying the Saiyans make Piccolo look cute by comparison.