Ki vs Power

[Goku9001]

Thanks for the effort. This seems fine. Which is my overall point to @Goku9001 , the fighter's sense their current ki, which should be directly in line with their power. I see no reason to alter one from another.

You're not reading their argument properly. They don't sense ki reserves which is what is being absorbed by the Buu meter. A Kamehameha yields more power than its user but it doesn't contain more ki than the user has. As you said, you can't dish out more ki than your body contains.

 

[Goku9001]

No it all matters, you can't claim there's a rate of drop with no explanation by how much & why.

1. You're telling me Goku fully rested can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha non-stop with no drop in the damage level from the very 1st Super Kamehameha to the very last Super Kamehameha he fires.

2. Then you're saying an exhausted Goku can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha & they will all be equal to as if he were well rested.

3. You're telling me there's a rate that Ki drops & a rate that damage level drops, yet both don't drop equally yet the reasons for those drops they're completely unrelated but you cannot explain what that is.

NO.
As I said you haven't said anything, you made a claim with no firm conclusion of the drop rate, damage, the level of effort or exhaustion, no established output for the Super Kamehameha or any Ki Blast for that matter.

Your argument is nothing but an appeal to ignorance which would do nothing provide you with an instant win.


In short they sense what's not hidden.
SO if a fighter is exhausted & or dying, they sense whatever level of Ki they have left right.

When did I claim that there is no drop in power when a user's ki is depleted? This is a strawman.

I need you to quote where I said this before we continue. It's obvious you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

[Goku9001]

Ok so going to Goku vs Majin Vegeta since it's how this whole thread started.

How does this even matter? Boo's meter takes Ki, power, not stamina. If Boo was revived, then Goku and Vegeta lost a shit ton of power and even more stamina.

Because power isn't synonymous with the amount of energy being absorbed. The Buu meter containing 10% of Goku's ki within a Kamehameha would not produce as much energy as absorbing half of Goku's energy directly in spite of the Kamehameha yielding more power. This is something we've already gone over countless times and yet the point is flying over everybody's heads.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So Goku and Vegeta should be even weaker than the ki that was absorbed?

 

[FeatsofPower]

So Goku and Vegeta should be even weaker than the ki that was absorbed

 

[VampireWicked]

When did I claim that there is no drop in power when a user's ki is depleted? This is a strawman.

I need you to quote where I said this before we continue. It's obvious you don't understand what I'm saying.

I need you to quote where I said this before we continue.
That's your strawman.
You don't think I understand, Then in detail explain it to me.

But first Answer my question so I can see what page we're on.
Can an exhausted Goku can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha back to back & maintain the same effort & damage level of that vs as if he were well rested?

 

[Goku9001]

I need you to quote where I said this before we continue.
That's your strawman.
You don't think I understand, Then in detail explain it to me.

But first Answer my question so I can see what page we're on.
Can an exhausted Goku can fire 2000 Super Kamehameha back to back & maintain the same effort & damage level of that vs as if he were well rested?

I literally stated that fighters can maintain their power until their stamina reaches a certain threshold. When a fighter is exhausted, I would assume their stamina has fallen to the point where full power can not be maintained.

 

[VampireWicked]

I literally stated that fighters can maintain their power until their stamina reaches a certain threshold. When a fighter is exhausted, I would assume their stamina has fallen to the point where full power can not be maintained.

Okay so there is a close relationship between Power & energy.

Here I'll explain what I'm saying.
The definition of that close relationship.
Energy vs power
Energy and power are closely related but are not the same physical quantity. Energy is the ability to cause change; power is the rate energy is moved, or used.

Energy
main article
Energy is the ability to create a change, for example, creating motion. Tasks (like lifting a box) require an amount of energy to complete. A battery will hold a particular amount of energy; so will a given amount of fuel, like food.

The base unit of energy is the joule. This means that a task, like lifting a box in figure 1, takes a certain number of joules regardless of how quickly the box is picked up.

Power
main article
Power is how fast energy is used or transmitted - power is the amount of energy divided by the time it took to use the energy. Its unit is the watt, which is one joule per second of energy used. A circular saw will draw a certain amount of power to run, and how quickly power is drawn from a battery determines how long its stored energy will last.


So again there is a close relationship between Power & Energy, IE the more often the use or more Ki Goku/Vegeta applies to say a Super Kamehameha or Final Flash the faster the rate at which their energy will drop.

AND YES Power can be suppressed as certain amounts can be used or released at a time can be controlled.
Like a light with a dimmer switch.
You can reduce the amount of light without unplugging the lamp.

 

[Goku9001]

Okay so there is a close relationship between Power & energy.

Here I'll explain what I'm saying.
The definition of that close relationship.
Energy vs power
Energy and power are closely related but are not the same physical quantity. Energy is the ability to cause change; power is the rate energy is moved, or used.

Energy
main article
Energy is the ability to create a change, for example, creating motion. Tasks (like lifting a box) require an amount of energy to complete. A battery will hold a particular amount of energy; so will a given amount of fuel, like food.

The base unit of energy is the joule. This means that a task, like lifting a box in figure 1, takes a certain number of joules regardless of how quickly the box is picked up.

Power
main article
Power is how fast energy is used or transmitted - power is the amount of energy divided by the time it took to use the energy. Its unit is the watt, which is one joule per second of energy used. A circular saw will draw a certain amount of power to run, and how quickly power is drawn from a battery determines how long its stored energy will last.


So again there is a close relationship between Power & Energy, IE the more often the use or more Ki Goku/Vegeta applies to say a Super Kamehameha or Final Flash the faster the rate at which their energy will drop.

AND YES Power can be suppressed as certain amounts can be used or released at a time can be controlled.
Like a light with a dimmer switch.
You can reduce the amount of light without unplugging the lamp.

This is still a strawman. No one is denying that power and energy are related. The point is that power doesn't have to drop at the same rate as energy does. I seriously don't think you understand anyone's arguments here.

Answer me this. Did Piccolo use energy against Raditz?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Answer me this. Did Piccolo use energy against Raditz?

He did but it wasn’t anything substantial. He threw a handful of kicks and punches and lost his arm and did two charged up blasts.
Well in line with what we see in the rest of the manga, besides the arm damage of course.

Why would he be heavily depleted based on his actual output?

 

[VampireWicked]

This is still a strawman. No one is denying that power and energy are related. The point is that power doesn't have to drop at the same rate as energy does. I seriously don't think you understand anyone's arguments here.

Answer me this. Did Piccolo use energy against Raditz?

Yes You did.

This is a point that is completely being ignored for reasons that I don't know. There is absolutely no proof that there is a 1:1 relationship between power and energy whereas there is plenty of proof that drops in energy do not necessitate an equivalent drop in power. Case in point would be Piccolo's battle with Android 17 where Android 17 only mentioned that Piccolo's power would start to drop because his stamina was starting to diminish after multiple clashes. That would not be the case if Piccolo's power had been dropping from the onset.

This isn't that complicated. It is very simple to understand. @FeatsofPower literally stated that you can consume energy while maintaining nearly maximum efficiency. Gamma 1 explicitly told Gohan that he was designed so that he could maintain full power while consuming energy far longer than organic organisms due to their inherent design which implies that organic organisms can maintain power to some capacity while exhausting energy. The Gammas just do it better.

It,s not a strawman, I just don't think you fully understand what you're talking about period.

This this does not say anything "The point is that power doesn't have to drop at the same rate as energy does." That's like saying person A does not get tired at the same time person B does.

That's a general statement, you neglect to explain at what rate of energy use when comparing A to B.
Your general statement doesn't disprove or prove any relationship between Energy & Power or anything else for that matter.

But to disagree Yes it does, the drop in energy does significantly effect the Power output itself, useless you're talking about a user's PowerLevel.
I don't know, I'm unaware a user getting exhausted then there's a scouter reading of their overall PowerLevel dropping.
We could count when a DragonBall character sensing another character on the battlefield who's exhausted & or nearly dying & their Ki is dropping.

BUT Maybe I am missing something so please explain it to me slowly, what is your side of the argument.


Also if you're asking that question then you don't understand the examples I gave you & you don't understand Energy vs power or the relationship of the two.
To answer your question YES Piccolo used energy against Raditz
His physical attacks, movement, etc were him using energy, that amount of damage caused is the power.

 

[Goku9001]

Yes You did.


It,s not a strawman, I just don't think you fully understand what you're talking about period.

This this does not say anything "The point is that power doesn't have to drop at the same rate as energy does." That's like saying person A does not get tired at the same time person B does.

That's a general statement, you neglect to explain at what rate of energy use when comparing A to B.
Your general statement doesn't disprove or prove any relationship between Energy & Power or anything else for that matter.

But to disagree Yes it does, the drop in energy does significantly effect the Power output itself, useless you're talking about a user's PowerLevel.
I don't know, I'm unaware a user getting exhausted then there's a scouter reading of their overall PowerLevel dropping.
We could count when a DragonBall character sensing another character on the battlefield who's exhausted & or nearly dying & their Ki is dropping.

BUT Maybe I am missing something so please explain it to me slowly, what is your side of the argument.


Also if you're asking that question then you don't understand the examples I gave you & you don't understand Energy vs power or the relationship of the two.
To answer your question YES Piccolo used energy against Raditz
His physical attacks, movement, etc were him using energy, that amount of damage caused is the power.

My argument is very simple. There is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power. Just because a user uses energy does not mean they lost power or lost power at nearly the same rate. The numbers are not given to us obviously because ki sensors don't sense ki reserves to begin with. However, there are several examples which make that clear. Piccolo vs. Raditz is a good one to start with because we are blatantly told that Piccolo remained at full power via his scouter reading despite using a lot of energy against Raditz. Since you agree that he used energy, then it is a clear example of characters maintaining full power despite exhausting energy. Therefore, there is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power.

You're simply confused because you somehow thought I was saying that power never fell regardless of energy and that is a claim that I never made. My claim is very simple and I'm not sure how you misunderstood me, frankly.

 

[VampireWicked]

My argument is very simple. There is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power. Just because a user uses energy does not mean they lost power or lost power at nearly the same rate. The numbers are not given to us obviously because ki sensors don't sense ki reserves to begin with. However, there are several examples which make that clear. Piccolo vs. Raditz is a good one to start with because we are blatantly told that Piccolo remained at full power via his scouter reading despite using a lot of energy against Raditz. Since you agree that he used energy, then it is a clear example of characters maintaining full power despite exhausting energy. Therefore, there is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power.

You're simply confused because you somehow thought I was saying that power never fell regardless of energy and that is a claim that I never made. My claim is very simple and I'm not sure how you misunderstood me, frankly.

I understand you, I think your claim is extremely lacking in reasoning, logic, & an education in physics & is nothing more than a wild blanket statement anyone can make based on assumption used trying to win an argument while saying absolutely nothing.

Your claim, You are not accounting for the effort.
Piccolo maintaining full power YES but you aren't accounting for the effort applied in doing so, without energy there is no power.

He is putting forth effort to maintain that level of Power, as the fight goes on he's not delivering those attacks as easily as he did at fight's start. Hench my Super Kamehameha question.
There is a close relationship between Power & Energy.



If "there is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power." then explain what that relationship is.

 

[Goku9001]

I understand you, I think your claim is extremely lacking in reasoning, logic, & an education in physics & is nothing more than a wild blanket statement anyone can make based on assumption used trying to win an argument while saying absolutely nothing.

Your claim, You are not accounting for the effort.
Piccolo maintaining full power YES but you aren't accounting for the effort applied in doing so, without energy there is no power.

He is putting forth effort to maintain that level of Power, as the fight goes on he's not delivering those attacks as easily as he did at fight's start. Hench my Super Kamehameha question.
There is a close relationship between Power & Energy.



If "there is no 1:1 relationship between energy and power." then explain what that relationship is.

That doesn't entail a 1:1 relationship. The fact that Piccolo could maintain full power after exhausting energy as Raditz means that it cannot be a 1:1 relationship. The premise is quite simple. The only requirement is that power can be maintained up to a certain point before it falls off once energy falls below a specific threshold. This is something hinted at by the Gammas.

 

[VampireWicked]

That doesn't entail a 1:1 relationship. The fact that Piccolo could maintain full power after exhausting energy as Raditz means that it cannot be a 1:1 relationship. The premise is quite simple. The only requirement is that power can be maintained up to a certain point before it falls off once energy falls below a specific threshold. This is something hinted at by the Gammas.

Wrong, it's physics.
Piccolo is creating energy through change movement..I E kinetic energy or mechanical
energy.
That energy generates speed, force, friction, damage.....I E Power.

The more energy he uses the faster/greater the force/power lessens.
Piccolo vs Raditz, Piccolo is maintaining full power because he is putting forth more EFFORT in doing so.


Energy is…

a scalar quantity
abstract and cannot always be perceived
given meaning through calculation
a central concept in science
Energy can exist in many different forms. All forms of energy are either kinetic or potential. The energy associated with motion is called kinetic energy. The energy associated with position is called potential energy. Potential energy is not "stored energy". Energy can be stored in motion just as well as it can be stored in position.


Power is the rate at which work is done (or the rate at which energy is transformed or transferred).
non-calculus calculus
P = ∆W
∆t
P = dW
dt
Where
P = power
W = work
t = time
Power is also the scalar product of force and velocity.
simplified non-calculus calculus
P = F∥v P = Fv cos θ P = F · vWhere
P = power
F∥ = component of force parallel to direction of motion
F = magnitude of force
F = force vector
v = magnitude of velocity
v = velocity vector
θ = angle between force and velocity
Units
The SI unit of power is the watt, named after the 18th century Scottish engineer James Watt.


In short You cannot have change/power without energy, just as you cannot have energy without change/power. That's a 1 to 1 relationship.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

Are these terms not synonymous with one another?

Most of the time yes, yet with Tien's attacks he could literally drain his chi to zero but his power output will be exponential.

It's dragon ball, it's all silliness.

 

[Classic Adamas]

Most of the time yes, yet with Tien's attacks he could literally drain his chi to zero but his power output will be exponential.

It's dragon ball, it's all silliness.

Tien literally draining his chi to zero but with exponential power output:

 

[Goku9001]

Wrong, it's physics.
Piccolo is creating energy through change movement..I E kinetic energy or mechanical
energy.
That energy generates speed, force, friction, damage.....I E Power.

The more energy he uses the faster/greater the force/power lessens.
Piccolo vs Raditz, Piccolo is maintaining full power because he is putting forth more EFFORT in doing so.


Energy is…

a scalar quantity
abstract and cannot always be perceived
given meaning through calculation
a central concept in science
Energy can exist in many different forms. All forms of energy are either kinetic or potential. The energy associated with motion is called kinetic energy. The energy associated with position is called potential energy. Potential energy is not "stored energy". Energy can be stored in motion just as well as it can be stored in position.


Power is the rate at which work is done (or the rate at which energy is transformed or transferred).
non-calculus calculus
P = ∆W
∆t
P = dW
dt
Where
P = power
W = work
t = time
Power is also the scalar product of force and velocity.
simplified non-calculus calculus
P = F∥v P = Fv cos θ P = F · vWhere
P = power
F∥ = component of force parallel to direction of motion
F = magnitude of force
F = force vector
v = magnitude of velocity
v = velocity vector
θ = angle between force and velocity
Units
The SI unit of power is the watt, named after the 18th century Scottish engineer James Watt.


In short You cannot have change/power without energy, just as you cannot have energy without change/power. That's a 1 to 1 relationship.

Woah that is the largest strawman I've ever seen. Power can be maintained while losing energy up to a certain point. Therefore, power doesn't drop at the same rate as one's energy does. That's literally all I'm saying. I've already presented examples and I'm not interested in a physics lecture considering I aced AP Physics years ago.

Let's establish middle ground here. You can maintain speed while losing stamina, correct?

 

[ahill1]

I can see where 9001 is coming from with the Piccolo example. His overall chi would be read as 408, but he could produce more chi with charged up blasts, so his overall chi when being absorbed could be bigger than what is read simply as his h2h fighting power. The matter is, will the energy stealing machine gather their chi registered when sensed from a warriors perspective or when read by a machine, or will they take that power multiplied even more so simce they can make their attacks stronger?

By one side, it makes sense they'd take their chi reserves into account when Gohan already filled almost half of Boo's power. Many take the energy needed to revive Boo as tied to the power Boo possess, so since SSJ2 Gohan isn't, like, 40% of Fat Boo's full power (at least not if we consider a 4x SSJ3 multiplier)... then it'd make sense such could be factoring a reserve energy concept. But atill, is the energy needed to revive Boo the same as Boo's power? While a nice theory that makes sense, one could easily argue that Boo needs a certain amount of energy to ba awakened, given all the time he was inactive, which isn't necessarily tied to how much power he can output... just the minimal for him to kick in, and then he can access more as the fight goes on. Maybe the energy needed to revive him could be more closely related to the power he had initially when waking up.

But also, if a power stealing machine would take into account the energy they have dormant, and not simply the read power output, wouldn't Gero benefit way more so from absorbing Tenshinhan? Because his Shin Kikoho is splendidly powerful... yet he gauges suppressed Piccolo as the next biggest source of energy after Vegeta. He also couldn't absorb much of Piccolo's power... Piccolo kept most of his energy unaccessible, so Gero simply couldn't absorb what wasn't there... he absorbed the amount he read from Piccolo.

Besides, I'm not sure they're acessing more energy from their usual level when making attacks stronger... it's like they're, more so, making that energy bigger by focusing it on a single point. They're amplifying what they currently have. It's like the concept of focusing a whole lot of power in a small area... you're increasing pressure, and then the lethality of the power, but not necessarily making its potency higher. The attack will be harder to deal with because it's all focused on a single blast. I think the scouter may be gauging moreso the potential danger of such attack, since, as it was said in the manga, they aren't taking energy from their reserves, they're "making it stronger" by focusing it on a single point. Maybe from a scouter standing point, when the energy is spread out, it's less intense than when it's gathered on a small area, to be read. By that point, if someone absorbed Piccolo, they would get more benefits than by absorbing Raditz?

I think a machine would absorb what their fighting chi is read at... I honestly don't think they are taking from reserves when making chi blasts stronger, since the concept is given moreso as "making it stronger by focusing it on a single point". If they could absorb energy in a way it goes beyond the user's powers, I think Gero would be able to absorb what wasn't on Piccolo's read at power, for instance.

 

[Hector]

If someone loses 10% of their ki, how much of their power do they retain?

As much as it is needed for the plot to progress.

If someone senses a ki user's full ki, is it their full power?

Depends on whether the plot wants it to be the full power.

Can ki user's access power greater than their ki?

Depends on whether the plot wants them to access power greater than their ki.