Kid Buu vs Super Buu

[kriss-]

1) Toriyama said Goku realized that training in Base would be better. He never realized this before Db Super.

2) He was showing off.

3) Sometimes people change their minds about things. You used to follow Super Buu > Kid Buu, does that make you hypocritcal too?

4) Goku cannot determine how strong he would need to get. If he could, the burden of proof is on you.

5) Goku attempted training by himself but realized it wouldn't work.

It's that simple.

 

[Dragon15]

Végéta is more than 10 years older than Goku. Goku didn't get older during the 8 years he was dead.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

7 years.

 

[Dragon15]

7 years.

7 years and around 10-11 months

 

[kriss-]

Bump,

 

[Nèro]

Base Super Buu?

 

[kriss-]

Eh?

Kid Boo kills him.

 

[Emmeth]

Eh?

Kid Boo kills him.

Ehh, no.

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

Super Buu in any form murks Kid Buu and murks him pretty badly

 

[Pocket-God]

It doesn't make much sense but I have Kid Buu above Gotenks and Super Buu but still below Mystic Gohan.

 

[kriss-]

I already destroyed all the Gotenks arguments. It's alot easier than one might think

Kid Boo wrecks.

 

[Emmeth]

I already destroyed all the Gotenks arguments. It's alot easier than one might think

Kid Boo wrecks.

Super Boo
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Gotenks-Boo
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Gohan-Boo
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

Pure Boo
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Spot a difference. Now I've destroyed your arguments, how does it feel?

 

[Event Horizon]

If Pure Boo fought Evil Boo, it would be exactly like Beerus vs SSJ3 Goku, where Evil Boo is Beerus and Pure Boo is SSJ3 Goku.

 

[kriss-]

I already destroyed all the Gotenks arguments. It's alot easier than one might think

Kid Boo wrecks.

Super Boo
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Gotenks-Boo
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Gohan-Boo
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

Pure Boo
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Spot a difference. Now I've destroyed your arguments, how does it feel?

I've countered all that in several different threads.

Kid Boo should wreck here.

 

[Emmeth]

I already destroyed all the Gotenks arguments. It's alot easier than one might think

Kid Boo wrecks.

Super Boo
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Gotenks-Boo
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Gohan-Boo
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

Pure Boo
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Spot a difference. Now I've destroyed your arguments, how does it feel?

I've countered all that in several different threads.

Kid Boo should wreck here.

Counter again then. Then again, what's the point? It's all bullshit anyway.

 

[kriss-]

Super Boo
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Gotenks-Boo
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

Gohan-Boo
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

Pure Boo
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”


Spot a difference. Now I've destroyed your arguments, how does it feel?

I've countered all that in several different threads.

Kid Boo should wreck here.

Counter again then. Then again, what's the point? It's all bullshit anyway.

This thing was a fucking pain in the ass to compile. Namely due to all the different quotes, et cetera, but it's finally finished! Enjoy!

Goku, Innocent Boo, Goku & Vegeta

Spoiler

Fat Boo > Goku Ssj3 > Goku Ssj2 =/= Vegeta Ssj2

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P10.7
Context: after Goten and Trunks question Goku’s power and Piccolo gets mad
Goku: “It’s alright, Piccolo…I really am weak. It don’t look like I can beat Majin Boo, not even a little bit.”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”

Gotenks Pre-RoSaT

Spoiler

Gotenks {Predicted} > Innocent Boo > Goku Ssj3 > Goku Ssj2 =/= Majin Vegeta Ssj2

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P7.5
Context: after Goku mentions Fusion
Popo: “Those two sleeping inside…Goten and Trunks, they’re almost identical in power and size. Wouldn’t they be able to do it? Fusion.”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Gotenks Pre RoSaT was predicted to be stronger than both Goku and Innocent Boo. However, no Chi sensors confirm this prediction. Also, two of these statements were based on a false pretence before Goku had the opportunity to witness the full power of Goten and Trunks. After witnessing their full Chi gathered to their limits, he changes his opinion from ‘if they just manage to perform successfully’ to ‘If they master’ fusion.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

{Gotenks Predicted} > Innocent Boo > Goku SSj3 > Gotenks Base Pre

Support Evidence:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”

{Gotenks Predicted} > Innocent Boo > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

Gotenks makes the mistake of believing that his strength increased in proportion to his speed. Speed does not correlate with strength: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=3609

The two attributes are related, but they do not scale linearly. Because Gotenks probably wasn’t sensed from the Kaioshin realm and nobody notices his Ki from there, than he’s even weaker than Goku SSj3 and he didn’t live up to the prediction.

Super Boo & Gotenks Post and Ultimate Gohan

Spoiler

Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/40-291.0/compressed/ddragon_ball_z_v024-179.jpg

The product of the sum split, and rearranged who was in charge of body and power. Nothing more... yet.

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”

Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Note: mostly I wanted to point out that Goku and co. can sense evil Boo from the Kaioshin Realm.

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/40-291.0/compressed/ddragon_ball_z_v024-181.jpg
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/41-292.0/compressed/ldragon_ball_z_v025-010.jpg
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/41-292.0/compressed/ldragon_ball_z_v025-019.jpg
Other notable Ki sensors don’t notice Boo’s power-up, only those that were paying close attention. Piccolo tells Kuririn that Boo has powered up and Kuririn has hopes based on Goku’s prediction, not that Gotenks Ssj actually lived up to the prediction when he became a Super Saiyan.

This also means Boo's power-up was a power-burst. This is further proven as Boo continues to examine himself after his power burst and the fact that Goten & Trunks think that only his appearance has changed.

Super Boo’s actual energy reading exceeds what he’s currently displaying, which they believe is the same as he was before.

Super Boo (Power-Burst/Full Power) > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks Ssj Post > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.4
Context: Gotenks prepares to fight Boo after his training
Gotenks: “You stupid bastard! You’re greatly mistaken if you think that I’m the same as I was before…”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P12.4-7
Context: Gotenks attacks Boo, to little effect
Boo: “May I attack now?”
Gotenks: “…Wa-wait a little bit…*thinking* …Tha-that’s strange…That should have effected him a decent amount, but…Hahha~~an! He’s just pretending it didn’t hurt him…”
Piccolo: “…Th-this may be hopeless…”

Trunks makes a battle power related statement about Gotenks Base being able to take down Boo. So they go along with his plan and it’s immediately contradicted. This is still following the belief that 'Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo'

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P12.7
Context: after Gotenks fights Boo a bit, and head-butts him
Piccolo: “He…he just might…possibly be able to de-defeat him…!”

Chapter: 491 (DBZ 297), P3.1
Context: as the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack seems to finish Boo off
Piccolo: “It’s an inc…incredible fight, but something about it is really stupid…!”

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P3.9
Piccolo: “You did well, you truly did well! Quite frankly I didn’t think you’d be able to do so much.”

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P3.3
Context: after Gotenks blows Boo up with the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack
Piccolo: “There’s no time to relax! Majin Boo will regenerate! Burn up all the scattered pieces of flesh! I’ll help too!”

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P5.7
Context: after Boo regenerates from being hit with the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack
Piccolo: “Shi…Shit…damn it! Rather than burn [the pieces of Boo’s body], we should have completely wiped them out with our ki…!”

After becoming a Super Saiyan, the battle is much closer and Boo is unable to maintain complete control of the fight. He’s still fighting at Innocent Boo’s level and Gotenks has finally near his expected battle power.

Gotenks SSj3 Post =/= Super Boo > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks Ssj Post > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P13.3-
Context: as Gotenks beats up on Boo
Goku: “Amazin’, amazin’! At this rate, Gohan ain’t gonna get a turn!”
Kaioshin: “Oh!”

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P4.4
Context: Boo says Goten and Trunks are scared to fight him
Trunks: “Looks like you don’t understand a thing! If we hadn’t returned to normal back then, we definitely would have won that fight!”

After becoming a Super Saiyan 3 the battle appears to be significantly closer.

Super Boo (Full Power) =/= Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Gotenks Ssj3 Post > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks Ssj Post > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Ultimate Gohan > Super Boo =/= Gotenks SSj3 Post > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks Ssj Post > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4-5
Context: after Boo disappears
Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan! [Gohan] was about as strong as our Super Gotenks!”
Goten: “He was even stronger.”

Buff Boo, Kid Boo & Goku Ssj3

Spoiler

Buff Boo > Super Boo =/= Gotenks Ssj3 Post

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3
Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”

When Super Boo transformed into Buff Boo his Ki was noted as increasing, but it was never noted as decreasing. Because no such evidence exists, the simple answer is that it did not decrease.

Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Gotenks Ssj3 Post =/= Super Boo

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created (Kid Boo) …I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? (Buff Boo) “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself (Kid Boo), a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. (Innocent Boo) “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed (Innocent Boo) …Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained (Pure Evil) by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

This particular statement is ambiguous, so my interpretation is as valid as your own. Both absorptions weakened Boo.

Ultimate Gohan > Goku SSj3 > Kid Boo > Buff Boo > Gotenks Ssj3 Post =/= Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Gotenks {Predicted} > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo >= Gotenks SSj Post > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base P

Supporting Evidence:

Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

So Goku’s prediction about Gotenks and Boo was based on a false pretence the entire time.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”

Arguments & Counter Arguments

Gotenks SSj Pre

Spoiler

Argument
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.

Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.

Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.

Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.

Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT

Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.

Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.

Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.

Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.

Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.

Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.

Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.

Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.

Counter-Argument

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:

Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).


Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.

Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.

Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.

After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:

Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.

Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.

Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:

Goku: "Sorry, but we don't know when Babidi will find us. We've gotta start now."
Piccolo: "Will you use the Room of Spirit and Time?"
Goku: "No. They can only use it for two days in their whole lives, right? They might need it later. I'm sure they're gonna learn this quick."

Goku says they have to start learning to fuse right away because nobody knows when Majin Boo might find them. Piccolo offers to use the RoSaT to speed up the process, but Goku refrains from using that and says they might need it after.

Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.

So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.

Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.

Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.

Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.

Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.

P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.

Your logic collapses in on itself.

Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.

Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.

Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.

Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.

Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?

Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.

Gotenks SSj3 Post

Spoiler

Argument: Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT surpassed his previous SSj level

Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.

Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.

Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.

Argument: Piccolo doubted Gotenks Ssj Pre's Power but not Gotenks Base Post

Counter Argument: See the first two points above.

Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.

Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).

Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo

Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.

Argument: Gotenks has to have Super Saiyan 2.

Counter-Argument: Actually no. Goku already demonstrated Super Saiyan 1-3 against the Fat Majin Boo and Goten was watching this entire demonstration. Goten is also the one who says: 'I can't believe there is something beyond Super Saiyan', and Trunks doesn't contradict his statement. This means they went from Super Saiyan 1 right to Super Saiyan 3.

Argument: Gotenks had sparks in one panel, that means he was Super Saiyan 2!

Counter-Argument: Vegetto had sparks when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Nappa had sparks when he powered up. These 'sparks' can simply be the result of Gotenks transforming into Super Saiyan 3; which is essentially what he's doing.

Argument: Even if Gotenks doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 he still get's the boost.

Counter-Argument: The hell?

Toriyama: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan.

Toriyama states that both Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 derive from the original Super Saiyan transformation. This also means that SSj 3 doesn't derive from SSj2. Therefore you don't need it to acquire SSj3, you just need the base product, SSj. Think of it like building blocks. You start off with 1 block (SSj), and than you go to SSj2 and suddenly you have 2 blocks. Next you go to SSj3 and you have 8 blocks. Whereas if you jump from SSj to SSj3, you only wind up with 4 blocks. Same principal here.

:what



1 ) Evil Boo absorbs the Good Boo and transforms into Super Boo.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3
Narrator: “Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out…In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo…”

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) > Evil Boo > Good Boo

Additional Comments:

Piccolo doesn't immediately react to Super Boo's new power until he does his power-burst. It's safe to determine that his Chi was more or less the same as it was while he was Innocent Boo.

2 ) Super Boo performs a power-burst to see where he now stands in power.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

3 ) Piccolo is able to read his Chi and shits himself.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

See above

4 ) Goku catches hold of this power-burst and comments on how Boo's Chi has a different feel to it.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”

Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) > Evil Boo > Good Boo

5 ) Other Chi sensors do not inform us that Super Boo's Chi has grown exponentially. Whereas Piccolo & Dende know the truth. This means that Super Boo's power-burst was only temporary and it was performed so Boo can determine about much how powerful he's become. He's also examining himself after his energy burst. Think of this temporary boost as something that Goku SSj2 did against Yakon.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

6 ) Piccolo doesn't immediately send the boys into the RoSaT because he still believes he has time to prepare and that Boo cannot sense Chi.

Supporting Quote:

Spoiler

See Above. Piccolo doesn't immediately send the boys into the RoSaT until Boo surprises them by heading towards the look-out.

7 ) Super Boo immediately senses the location of the look-out and surprises them, putting everybody in danger and forcing Piccolo's hand.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P12.2
Piccolo: “Da-damn it…! This Majin Boo is able to spot our ki!”

Additionally Comments:

The second scan shows everybody only reacting to Super Boo once he arrives on the lookout. Nobody noticed a radical difference in his Chi. Therefore this proves the fact that Super Boo's initial power burst was only a temporary burst of energy.

8 ) There is now no more time for preparation and Piccolo has to immediately send the boys into the RoSaT.

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

9 ) The boys now believe that Gotenks has become as powerful as Super Boo/Innocent Boo (Full Power) in only his Base form.

Supporting Quotes:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) =/= Gotenks Base (Expected)

6 ) Gotenks is wrong.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P12.4-7
Context: Gotenks attacks Boo, to little effect
Boo: “May I attack now?”
Gotenks: “…Wa-wait a little bit…*thinking* …Tha-that’s strange…That should have effected him a decent amount, but…Hahha~~an! He’s just pretending it didn’t hurt him…”
Piccolo: “…Th-this may be hopeless…”

Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) > Gotenks Base Post

7 ) Gotenks turns into a Super Saiyan and is finally able to manage something against him.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P12.7
Context: after Gotenks fights Boo a bit, and head-butts him
Piccolo: “He…he just might…possibly be able to de-defeat him…!

Additional Comment:

Whether parts of the fight are gag or not, Super Boo is not able to maintain complete control of the fight as he had before. He was never shown to power back up just yet and is still fighting at Innocent Boo's level.

Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) >= Gotenks SSj Post > Gotenks Base Post

8 ) Super Boo has to power up to his full power to escape from the RoSaT

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P1.3
Context: following the above quote, Piccolo is of course immediately proved wrong
Piccolo: “Th-that’s un-unbelievable…! He opened a hole in the dimension with his tremendous ki power…! Th-this is bad…! He can escape.”

Super Boo (Full Power) =/= Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power ) >= Gotenks SSj Post > Gotenks Base Post

9 ) Gotenks turns SSj3 to match this because he is unable to at his current level of power.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

10 ) Gotenks appears to be stronger than Boo, but Boo later reveals it was part of his plan in order to defeat Gohan.

Supporting Scans:

Spoiler

Supporting Quotes:

Spoiler

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Super Boo (Full Power) =/= Super Boo (Power-Burst) > Gotenks SSj3 Post > Super Boo (Initial) =/= Innocent Boo (Full Power) >= Gotenks SSj Post > Gotenks Base Post

Additional Counters To Common Misconceptions:

Gotenks Pre
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
Gotenks Post
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3731

 

[Emmeth]

All of that doesn't matter because Goku says they (him and Vegeta) can't beat Evil Boo if they go out there. You can't say it's not about power, because it most certainly is. How else could Evil Boo defeat them? Don't say chocolate beam or absorption, because at this point they are aware of these attacks and would avoid them if "they were stronger".

Goku saying Boo's chi is like a lie doesn't matter anymore at that point because he has seen Boo fight first hand and knows what he's capable of.

 

[kriss-]

Yea good job, lmao.

Shouldn't make challenges when you can't back your shit up chump.

 

[Emmeth]

Yea good job, lmao.

Shouldn't make challenges when you can't back your shit up chump.

Sure, just ignore it because that suits you best. You're a fucking joke.

 

[kriss-]

Yea good job, lmao.

Shouldn't make challenges when you can't back your shit up chump.

Sure, just ignore it because that suits you best. You're a fucking joke.

I'm disdainfully reluctant in taking your debating qualities seriously.