Kid Buu vs Super Buu

[kriss-]

Toriyama stated they reached a peak where they couldn't get any stronger.

So no, it's impossible for Goku to surpass Frieza in Base.

Vegeta became stronger in the last episode, fact.
So They can become stronger.

That's Vegeta. He demonstrated power equal to 10% Beerus without SSJG.

So no, Goku cannot surpass Frieza in his Base form.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Toriyama stated they reached a peak where they couldn't get any stronger.

So no, it's impossible for Goku to surpass Frieza in Base.

Vegeta became stronger in the last episode, fact.
So They can become stronger.

That's Vegeta. He demonstrated power equal to 10% Beerus without SSJG.

So no, Goku cannot surpass Frieza in his Base form.

Here is the problem : why this rule would apply only to Goku, especially when you know that Vegeta is 5 years older than him ? Besides, Goku wants to train to become stronger than Beerus.

 

[kriss-]

Goku had to absorb SSJG to break his barriers.

Vegeta broke them without SSJG.

The rule doesn't apply to Vegeta because he obviously contradicted it and Goku didn't. Everything we have been shown follows in line with it actually. Such as Beerus stating that Frieza is stronger than Goku on 2 separate occasions, and Goku stating he couldn't get stronger by normal training on 2 separate occasions.

 

[Dragon15]

Toriyama stated they reached a peak where they couldn't get any stronger.

So no, it's impossible for Goku to surpass Frieza in Base.

Vegeta became stronger in the last episode, fact.
So They can become stronger.

That's Vegeta. He demonstrated power equal to 10% Beerus without SSJG.

So no, Goku cannot surpass Frieza in his Base form.

But AT was not talking about only Goku, but about the group. If he was wrong about vegeta, he was wrong about Goku too.

And you just said it was because They were too old. If Vegeta who is older can be stronger, Goku can too.

 

[kriss-]

You would need to show Goku surpassing Frieza in Base form without SSJG for that to be true.

 

[Dragon15]

You would need to show Goku surpassing Frieza in Base form without SSJG for that to be true.

Not right now, but he indeed became stronger since buu saga, and he could have kept being stronger like Vegeta.

And even if he can't surpass Freeza, he can become stronger.
And Goku had more Time to train than Vegeta since he is younger So he bas more chance to surpass freeza one day

 

[Ryuzaki]

Goku had to absorb SSJG to break his barriers.

Vegeta broke them without SSJG.

The rule doesn't apply to Vegeta because he obviously contradicted it and Goku didn't. Everything we have been shown follows in line with it actually. Such as Beerus stating that Frieza is stronger than Goku on 2 separate occasions, and Goku stating he couldn't get stronger by normal training on 2 separate occasions.

1)Assumption.

2)He only said it after he got stomped by Beerus, though. Beforehand, he was training hard as ever. The context is important, t0sh.

 

[kriss-]

Everything contradicts Goku being able to continually progress.

Until I'm shown a direct feat or statement of Goku surpassing Frieza without SSJG, it's impossible to convince me other-wise.

Let's respectfully disagree.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Everything contradicts Goku being able to continually progress.

Your interpretation, at least. Which ignore completely the context of Goku's quote.

 

[kriss-]

Goku had to absorb SSJG to break his barriers.

Vegeta broke them without SSJG.

The rule doesn't apply to Vegeta because he obviously contradicted it and Goku didn't. Everything we have been shown follows in line with it actually. Such as Beerus stating that Frieza is stronger than Goku on 2 separate occasions, and Goku stating he couldn't get stronger by normal training on 2 separate occasions.

1)Assumption.

2)He only said it after he got stomped by Beerus, though. Beforehand, he was training hard as ever. The context is important, t0sh.

Okay and? What does that prove?

 

[Ryuzaki]

Goku had to absorb SSJG to break his barriers.

Vegeta broke them without SSJG.

The rule doesn't apply to Vegeta because he obviously contradicted it and Goku didn't. Everything we have been shown follows in line with it actually. Such as Beerus stating that Frieza is stronger than Goku on 2 separate occasions, and Goku stating he couldn't get stronger by normal training on 2 separate occasions.

1)Assumption.

2)He only said it after he got stomped by Beerus, though. Beforehand, he was training hard as ever. The context is important, t0sh.

Okay and? What does that prove?

Goku can power-up through trainings. After getting beaten by Beerus, he realized that he can't hope to reach his power by training. Plus, do you think that he'll just let him 20 years of training before destroying the Earth ?

It's all in the context, dude. You can't ignore it.

 

[kriss-]

1)Assumption.

2)He only said it after he got stomped by Beerus, though. Beforehand, he was training hard as ever. The context is important, t0sh.

Okay and? What does that prove?

Goku can power-up through trainings. After getting beaten by Beerus, he realized that he can't hope to reach his power by training. Plus, do you think that he'll just let him 20 years of training before destroying the Earth ?

It's all in the context, dude. You can't ignore it.

Okay and how does that prove Goku can surpass Frieza in Base when everything contradicts it?

Goku is inable to sense deities, so he doesn't know how strong he needs to become. Also, Goku blatantly states 'the only way to get stronger is to merge'. There is no other way to get stronger.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Okay and? What does that prove?

Goku can power-up through trainings. After getting beaten by Beerus, he realized that he can't hope to reach his power by training. Plus, do you think that he'll just let him 20 years of training before destroying the Earth ?

It's all in the context, dude. You can't ignore it.

Okay and how does that prove Goku can surpass Frieza in Base when everything contradicts it?

Well, I think that he could have surpassed him without SSJG if he trained hard enough. But anyways, Frieza > Goku (DBS) > Goku (Boo Saga) is definitely true.

Goku is inable to sense deities, so he doesn't know how strong he needs to become. Also, Goku blatantly states 'the only way to get stronger is to merge'. There is no other way to get stronger.

1)Even before Goku actually knew how strong Beerus is, he thought that he couldn't win by fusing.
2)Despite the fact that mere minutes before, he was training as hard as he could, he magically realized that he couldn't get stronger after getting stomped by Beerus ?

 

[kriss-]

I guess Goku is an idiot for trying to train during Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super, only to stop and realize he couldn't actually get stronger. He must be even stupider for stating it, because it wasn't true to begin with.

He must also have the capability to sense Beerus and determine that he couldn't reach his strength in time. Even under the knowledge that he thinks Vegeta might be able to bring out his full power -when Vegeta only brought out 10%. What does this say? Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is.

^.^

 

[kriss-]

If Goku doesn't know how strong Beerus is -and clearly doesn't due to SSJG blowing away all predetermined power levels, then he can't determine he couldn't surpass him by training on his own.

Thus the only logical conclusion is that Goku attempted to train alone and quickly realized he couldn't make any-more gains. Hence why he stated so.

Summarily, if you're an athlete and are at your prime, it's going to take some pretty damn intense workouts to keep what you have. To argue Goku is training harder and thus he's getting stronger, just sounds like idiocy. It makes no sense and contradicts everything we're told. That and it has nothing actually supporting it besides your own personal speculation.

 

[Ryuzaki]

I guess Goku is an idiot for trying to train during Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super, only to stop and realize he couldn't actually get stronger. He must be even stupider for stating it, because it wasn't true to begin with.

He must also have the capability to sense Beerus and determine that he couldn't reach his strength in time. Even under the knowledge that he thinks Vegeta might be able to bring out his full power -when Vegeta only brought out 10%. What does this say? Goku has no idea how strong Beerus is.

^.^

1)It's either Goku is a huge idiot, or we take into account the whole context. I go with the second choice personally.

2)Goku still estimated that he couldn't win even with fusion, which is already enough for him to guess that he can't reach his power in time. And I don't think that he can reach Vegito's power just by training mere minutes if by 7 years of training, he only managed to surpass a little Gohan in equal forms. Here, we're talking about freaking Vegito, the guy who stomped Boo's strongest form as SSJ while he can't even win against Cell in the same form. It's a huge boost that he would have to gain in mere hours at most before the Earth is potentially destroyed by Beerus. Goku's line about Vegeta only means that even when thinking that, he underestimated Beerus. Your point is still not proved right.

 

[kriss-]

Nothing supports your claim. Goku contradicts it himself on 2 separate accounts.

Goku: "The only way to get stronger."

This means merging is the only way.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Nothing supports your claim. Goku contradicts it himself on 2 separate accounts.

Goku: "The only way to get stronger."

This means merging is the only way.

Nothing supports my claim...except the fact that Goku trained mere minutes before fighting Beerus, or the fact that he trained 5 years to surpass Boo...oh, and the whole context of the quote. And you said 2 accounts, not one. Where is the other ? Is it invisible ?

Fact > Statement.

 

[kriss-]

So Goku trained. It doesn't show he got stronger.

Goku could already beat Buu, he just messed around too much and lost stamina.

Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super.

You have literally no evidence and simply speculate. That's all you do.

 

[Ryuzaki]

So Goku trained. It doesn't show he got stronger.

Goku could already beat Buu, he just messed around too much and lost stamina.

Battle of Gods & Dragonball Super.

You have literally no evidence and simply speculate. That's all you do.

1)Oh I forgot, Goku train as hard as he can for nothing, despite the fact that he said that he'll train to win a one-on-one fight against Boo.

2)And now he toyed with Boo ? He stated that he'll go all-out from the start, he stated that he tries to beat him. Do you want to rewrite the manga while you're at it.

3)Weren't you the one who speculated that Goku couldn't get stronger because he was too old, despite the fact that Vegeta is 5 years older than him and was more than able to get stronger, as stated by Whis ? Yes, that was you. Talk about hypocritical. There's a lot of statements with "we can't beat him", "there's one way to win". Taking all of them literally, training wasn't an option, despite the fact that they surpassed their opponents later.

Goku didn't have the time to train in order to reach Beerus's power (or at least, the power he thought he had). Do you think he'll ask him : Right Lord Beerus. Just let me 20 years of training, so I'll be strong enough to defeat you ? No. None of them thought of this solution while dealing with others opponents, so why they would now ?

If you don't take into account the context, it's obvious that we're going to disagree. If you think that Goku realized that he can't get stronger by training just because he lost a battle (while it had the opposite effect until now), be my guest. But you'll never convince me with your current arguments. Let's just agree to disagree. This debate will take forever otherwise.