King Piccolo Planet Buster?

[SIAD]

The second most powerful attack of Piccolo Daimao was 97 megatons, which is equivalent to 1.94x the Tzar Nuclear Bomb (The most powerful bomb launched so far).

  A hypothetical Bakurikimaha by Piccolo Daimao (Before starting to wear out), at best City Level Mid.

 

[SSJ2]

I mean, Piccolo launching this attack while at full power tells me hes mot capable of planet destruction. This attack is full power, no holding back, and not making and effort to concentrate his blast like the Big Bang Attack. This honestly looks like everything Piccolo Daimao has. If he was to fly to altitude and launch this attack, I'm sure the damage to the planet would be far greater, but I just cant see him destroying the planet when hes using this much effort for a nuclear bomb sized blast.

 

[SIAD]

I see it as Piccolo Daimao overcoming the attack of all the Nuclear and Piccolo Bombs (TB23) overcoming the combined attack of all the World Nuclear Bombs.

 

[p123]

King Piccolo is not trying to destroy the world with that blast, he's only trying to destroy Goku. I think King Piccolo can destroy everything on the surface of the Earth, just not bust the planet. I think that fits in line with Roshi's ability to blow up the moon.

The moon is as wide as the United States. If Roshi at the 21st Budokai can blow that up, I think King Piccolo being a hefty bit stronger can destroy everything on Earth's surface if he wanted.

I got King Piccolo about 10x stronger than Roshi's moon buster. So that fits in line with what I'm doing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

King Piccolo is not trying to destroy the world with that blast, he's only trying to destroy Goku. I think King Piccolo can destroy everything on the surface of the Earth, just not bust the planet. I think that fits in line with Roshi's ability to blow up the moon.

He still had no reason to hold back the range of his attack when if anything, it would be beneficial to increase the range as much as possible. However,

The moon is as wide as the United States. If Roshi at the 21st Budokai can blow that up, I think King Piccolo being a hefty bit stronger can destroy everything on Earth's surface if he wanted.

Despite actual feats proving otherwise.

If wanting to rationalise Roshi's Moon Bust in any way, assuming it's far less dense than the real life one or the moon in Z makes far less sense than assuming Piccolo Daimao is above that when even city busting requires strain for him. Even that is unlikely though, considering no other Ki blast showed the speed to cover such a distance in so little time until Piccolo's Moon Bust.

I got King Piccolo about 10x stronger than Roshi's moon buster. So that fits in line with what I'm doing.

Actual evidence >>> headcannon and battle power based scaling isn't linear with levels of energy. If it were, then 1st form Freeza wouldn't even be a city buster, nevermind a planet buster.

 

[p123]

How strong is Roshi at the 21st Budokai according to guidebooks? Around 100 right?

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

I do have King Piccolo at continent level. It lines perfectly with Roshi's feat, and I see no reason why King Piccolo couldn't be that powerful.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Continent level seems to be too much IMO. I think that's where Napa falls into the category. King Piccolo is probably small country buster IMO.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Fat Boo wasn't trying to blow up the Earth though, whereas Daimao had no reserve on how much of it he destroyed when firing the Bakurikimaha. Completely different situations.

That would've went against his entire plan of terrorism if he destroyed huge part of earth. Daimao wanted to enjoy his time terrorizing the people on earth. I see no reason why Daimao would want to just annihilate everything. I wouldn't put him at planetary, but rather at continental level. This perfectly works fine with Roshi's feat.

The moon in Z is shown to be far larger than the one in DB and Piccolo's feat doesn't have contrary feats to make it an outlier like Roshi's.

Roshi's feat wasn't shown to be an outlier. We never saw his buff form ever again in Dragon Ball, and he's the only one to ever unleash a direct Ki blast towards the moon. Roshi already conceded to his inferiority towards King Piccolo. Also, what's this about Z moon being larger than the one in DB? I might have messed something so tell me about it.

That alone shows that Roshi's moon feat was an outlier, as do speed feats from Ki blasts never reaching the same level of speed until the Saiyan Arc.

No, that's quite wrong. It doesn't really show it's an outlier. At each point, Roshi fired different amount of Ki, it doesn't mean that was his limit. The speed of Ki blasts? I don't remember them ever being quantified to even judge in the first place.

Nothing goes against Roshi's feat. I have yet to see anything of that sort.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Continent level seems to be too much IMO. I think that's where Napa falls into the category. King Piccolo is probably small country buster IMO.

I have Nappa at planet buster. Characters can stay in the same tier yet still have a noticeable gap between them, so Nappa being at planetary along with many others seems solid to me. This makes King Piccolo at continental safe

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Well given he's an elite Saiyan then why not but I'm still not convinced though.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How strong is Roshi at the 21st Budokai according to guidebooks? Around 100 right?

There's no official statement regarding battle powers prior to the RRA Arc aside from BoDB Goku's level of 10 and 100 for his Oozaru form, and trying to fit the guidebook readings for Part 1 into any concise manner at all is pretty impossible when comparing them to feats/statements when it has things such as 22nd TB Ten/Goku > BoZ Yamcha or Prime Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Ten and Kami.

I do have King Piccolo at continent level. It lines perfectly with Roshi's feat, and I see no reason why King Piccolo couldn't be that powerful.

It doesn't when the best feats he showed were City level and his far stronger reincarnation's best feat at the 23rd TB was Small Country level.

That would've went against his entire plan of terrorism if he destroyed huge part of earth. Daimao wanted to enjoy his time terrorizing the people on earth. I see no reason why Daimao would want to just annihilate everything.

He was fighting against someone superior to him who could ruin all his plans. That's more than enough of a reason to stop caring about the collateral damages.

I wouldn't put him at planetary, but rather at continental level. This perfectly works fine with Roshi's feat.

Despite the lack of feats supporting this and the effort needed to city bust actively contradicting that stance.
Scaling isn't linear when it comes to energy levels correlating with battle powers in DB.

Roshi's feat wasn't shown to be an outlier. We never saw his buff form ever again in Dragon Ball, and he's the only one to ever unleash a direct Ki blast towards the moon. Roshi already conceded to his inferiority towards King Piccolo.

Piccolo Daimao never presented any destructive or speed feats anywhere close to Roshi's Kamehameha, especially with Daimao needing to tense himself to even destroy a small city, so there's two options you can go by: either Roshi's buff state is far superior to Daimao, or the feat was an outlier.

Also, what's this about Z moon being larger than the one in DB? I might have messed something so tell me about it.

The moon shown when Gohan goes Oozaru was far larger than the one shown at the 21st TB and prior to that, despite nothing suggesting the distance is any different.

No, that's quite wrong. It doesn't really show it's an outlier. At each point, Roshi fired different amount of Ki, it doesn't mean that was his limit.

He admitted that he went too far with the attack when destroying Mount Fry Pan. Doesn't sound like something that would be possible if he could easily control his Ki in that state.

The speed of Ki blasts? I don't remember them ever being quantified to even judge in the first place.

Piccolo's Ki blasts at the 23rd TB were only MHS to MHS+, far from the Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic speed needed to replicate Roshi's feat: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Piccolo_Junior%27s_23rd_Budokai_Ki_Blast_Speed

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

It doesn't when the best feats he showed were City level and his far stronger reincarnation's best feat at the 23rd TB was Small Country level.

Following feats very closely the way you're doing would simply put regular blasts from SsjB Goku below 23rd Budokai Piccolo's beams. That's not how it works, especially when feats in Dragon Ball are rather scarce and wouldn't make sense if you took them at face value. You have Roshi destroying the moon, but nothing later disagrees with that feat. Therefore, taking Daimao's feat and simply use it as a main basis would be wrong.

He was fighting against someone superior to him who could ruin all his plans. That's more than enough of a reason to stop caring about the collateral damages.

Not really. That's just an assumption on your part. The statement he said was that he could destroy the world, which is open to interpretation. Planet level is a tier only introduced in DBZ, but there's nothing that suggests Daimao can't create an explosion that could destroy multiple moons or something of that sort. He didn't want to destroy the planet (if this is what you're trying to imply), because he can't. Even assuming he can, it's an assumption to claim that he could survive such explosion. Second, his goal was to kill Goku and not cause a total catastrophe. Characters in DBZ are shown capable of compressing their Ki onto specific targets, always. Which is why the Ki blasts of stronger opponents are never shown to cause the same feats weaker characters performed

Despite the lack of feats supporting this and the effort needed to city bust actively contradicting that stance.

If you're searching so badly for feats, then Roshi got you his. You're ignoring his feat and assume it's an outlier because Daimao didn't do something similar, but that logic would mean Cell is a complete fodder and Frieza's Planetary attacks are outliers because someone stronger than Frieza didn't actually do it.

Scaling isn't linear when it comes to energy levels correlating with battle powers in DB.

This has nothing to do with our current argument.

Piccolo Daimao never presented any destructive or speed feats anywhere close to Roshi's Kamehameha, especially with Daimao needing to tense himself to even destroy a small city, so there's two options you can go by: either Roshi's buff state is far superior to Daimao, or the feat was an outlier.

It was just him gathering Ki, regardless of the amount he gathered, he pointed at the city he wanted to destroy and destroyed it. Characters can control the AoT of their Ki blasts, and note that there are instances where characters use more than the required Ki to perform a task. Another thing to note is the ability to manipulate your Ki at will. In time, characters learned to better manipulate their Ki under their will, since they were shown to improve in that respect. Your arguments are pretty arguable, and can be interpreted in many ways. Hey, there's another 4th option which is that the tensing part is an outlier since it doesn't outweigh legitimate feats. The tensing part can simply be cinematic effects, since the way characters charge their Ki varies, and so it's a weak indication to follow.

The moon shown when Gohan goes Oozaru was far larger than the one shown at the 21st TB and prior to that, despite nothing suggesting the distance is any different.

Akira implies that the DBZ moon is the same as Real life moon. I don't see how can you judge something based on something not drawn to scale.

He admitted that he went too far with the attack when destroying Mount Fry Pan. Doesn't sound like something that would be possible if he could easily control his Ki in that state.

You just supported my point. "He went too far" is an indicator that Roshi could have manipulated his Ki to a lesser level or possibly higher if he wanted. This implies a variety in the level of Ki he used.

Piccolo's Ki blasts at the 23rd TB were only MHS to MHS+, far from the Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic speed needed to replicate Roshi's feat: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Piccolo_Junior%27s_23rd_Budokai_Ki_Blast_Speed

This point is subjective whether you take calculations as valid or not. I personally don't, so this is moot because we can't discuss it because we have no ground basis to argue it.

 

[p123]

So Goku should be at least a 20 at the 21st Budokai then, right?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Following feats very closely the way you're doing would simply put regular blasts from SsjB Goku below 23rd Budokai Piccolo's beams. That's not how it works, especially when feats in Dragon Ball are rather scarce and wouldn't make sense if you took them at face value. You have Roshi destroying the moon, but nothing later disagrees with that feat. Therefore, taking Daimao's feat and simply use it as a main basis would be wrong.

Comparing a fighter with clear control over their Ki to someone with no control at all is completely ignoring the context.

Planet level is a tier only introduced in DBZ, but there's nothing that suggests Daimao can't create an explosion that could destroy multiple moons or something of that sort. He didn't want to destroy the planet (if this is what you're trying to imply), because he can't.

Which means there's no reason whatsoever to place him above City level when that's the most he's shown or solidly stated to be capable of.

Second, his goal was to kill Goku and not cause a total catastrophe.

Of which he'd have a far easier job doing if assuring Goku had absolutely no way of dodging by making his attack radius as wide as possible.

Characters in DBZ are shown capable of compressing their Ki onto specific targets, always. Which is why the Ki blasts of stronger opponents are never shown to cause the same feats weaker characters performed.

And the proof of Daimao compressing his Bakurikimaha's radius is?

If you're searching so badly for feats, then Roshi got you his. You're ignoring his feat and assume it's an outlier because Daimao didn't do something similar, but that logic would mean Cell is a complete fodder and Frieza's Planetary attacks are outliers because someone stronger than Frieza didn't actually do it.

You're ignoring the part where I mentioned Piccolo Daimao needing effort to destroy a small city being a direct contradiction of him being anywhere near Moon level. That's far different from fighters limiting their destructive capacity.
Roshi's feat isn't an outlier if you use it to place him above anyone prior to the Start of Z in that state. This would actually work with the V-Jump statement specifying Goku's 910 Kamehameha can destroy the moon. If treating him as inferior to Daimao, however, then the Moon level feat cannot work when as I've said plenty of times by now, Piccolo Daimao having to put forth enough effort for the veins to bulge on his hand when destroying a small city isn't something an Island buster would need to do, nevermind a Continent or Moon buster.

This has nothing to do with our current argument.

It does when it's your only defence for Daimao being Continent level when absolutely nothing backs that up.

It was just him gathering Ki, regardless of the amount he gathered, he pointed at the city he wanted to destroy and destroyed it. Characters can control the AoT of their Ki blasts, and note that there are instances where characters use more than the required Ki to perform a task. Another thing to note is the ability to manipulate your Ki at will. In time, characters learned to better manipulate their Ki under their will, since they were shown to improve in that respect. Your arguments are pretty arguable, and can be interpreted in many ways. Hey, there's another 4th option which is that the tensing part is an outlier since it doesn't outweigh legitimate feats. The tensing part can simply be cinematic effects, since the way characters charge their Ki varies, and so it's a weak indication to follow.

He was shown to tense himself up whenever doing most city level destructive feats, so this clearly wasn't an outlier.

You just supported my point. "He went too far" is an indicator that Roshi could have manipulated his Ki to a lesser level or possibly higher if he wanted. This implies a variety in the level of Ki he used.

The difference between wiping out flames and destroying a mountain is far too much to say Roshi had much control of how much effort he put into the attack.

This point is subjective whether you take calculations as valid or not. I personally don't, so this is moot because we can't discuss it because we have no ground basis to argue it.

Even if ignoring the calculation, the speed feat is still clearly far less than covering the difference between the ground of the Earth and the Moon in a matter of seconds, no matter how you look at it.

 

[p123]

So you are saying that Piccolo couldn't turn the Earth into a wasteland even though he said he could. Then you say Roshi couldn't have busted the moon even though he actually did. And then you want to call me out for head canon. Hmmm lol yeah go get ya shine box kid haha

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So you are saying that Piccolo couldn't turn the Earth into a wasteland even though he said he could.

Except that he never presented the ability to do any more than destroy a city.

Then you say Roshi couldn't have busted the moon even though he actually did.

Only if you treat Roshi as inferior to Piccolo Daimao. If not, it indeed isn't an outlier, whereas it clearly is if treating him as inferior when Piccolo needs actual effort to City bust.

It's as if you don't know what the word "outlier" means.

And then you want to call me out for head canon. Hmmm lol yeah go get ya shine box kid haha

How about using more than a single, easily contradicted statement as evidence then?

 

[p123]

Cell said he could blow up the solar system. We throwing that out now too?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That is at least backed up by guidebook statements, otherwise it would indeed be a very subjective topic. Piccolo Daimao's hyperbole when he needed effort to destroy a small city and never destroyed more than a City, however, has nothing but his own ego backing it up and that's assuming he was even referring to doing so with a single attack in the first place.

Also, whataboutism isn't a substitute for evidence.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Comparing a fighter with clear control over their Ki to someone with no control at all is completely ignoring the context.

What? The context doesn't go against this interpretation at all. I didn't ignore the context, but rather explained it

Which means there's no reason whatsoever to place him above City level when that's the most he's shown or solidly stated to be capable of.

He's above Buff Roshi, therefore Daimao > Moon level.

Even the Daizenshuu lists the Moon busting Kamehameha as a version of its own, and specifically states that it can destroy the moon. Max Power Kamehameha is intended to be moon busting, and Daimao is the first character to surpass that Kamehameha. There's just nowhere to go and hide that point.

Of which he'd have a far easier job doing if assuring Goku had absolutely no way of dodging by making his attack radius as wide as possible.

Not really, because that was a sure hit. If he allowed his Ki to disperse, the harm will be less for Goku due to massive energy loss rather than being condensed into a single source.

And the proof of Daimao compressing his Bakurikimaha's radius is?

Well let me answer you this back with a question: Proof that SsjB Goku compressed the effect of his Ki balls while attacking Zamasu, and in the end only caused a crater?

You're ignoring the part where I mentioned Piccolo Daimao needing effort to destroy a small city being a direct contradiction of him being anywhere near Moon level. That's far different from fighters limiting their destructive capacity.

I already addressed this point, that this tensing part can also be an outlier and just placed as a cinematic effect for the sole purpose of hyping that scene. Everything else doesn't go against it at all. You're just demanding a feat that has been referenced twice and mentioned as a legitimate feat in guides as an outlier solely to keep Daimao below Moon level.

talking about Roshi's feat and V-Jump

Stating that Buff Roshi is more powerful than Daimao is a flat out contradiction since it has been implied on multitude of occasions that Daimao > Anything Roshi can dish out. Despite all of this, Roshi's feat was never dismissed, and your entire argument is "only this is what I saw" when we also saw nothing of Cell, so according to you, Frieza's planetary feats are all nonsense because a stronger foe failed to commit the same feats. This also discards your claim below regarding my defence of Daimao being continental, yet you're leaving the various examples of Cell and even Raditz who, if Roshi's feat was regarded as an inconsistency, then Piccolo would have gained a very massive, potential inconsistent, jump in power that has ever been shown froom DB to start of DBZ but it would all make sense if Buff Roshi was regarded as a moon buster at his strongest.

He was shown to tense himself up whenever doing most city level destructive feats, so this clearly wasn't an outlier.

The second time he was shown to create such a blast was against Goku, which is open to interpretation since that blast was designed specifically to attack Goku, not targeting a particular city. Roshi's Buff form was always specified to be that powerful, so you'd be trying so hard to ignore such relevance.

The difference between wiping out flames and destroying a mountain is far too much to say Roshi had much control of how much effort he put into the attack.

While he doesn't have perfect control in his buff form, it doesn't change the fact that he indicated that he could have fluctuated in the level of power of his Kamehameha. That much is enough.

Even if ignoring the calculation, the speed feat is still clearly far less than covering the difference between the ground of the Earth and the Moon in a matter of seconds, no matter how you look at it.

There is no way to quantify the time it took for Roshi's Kamehameha to destroy the moon and compare it with Piccolo. Stating any time would be a pure assumption, and using the anime's time interval is not a reliable argument.

No matter what method you use to support yourself, you can't escape the fact that the Kamehameha Roshi deployed is moon level as stated by Daizenshuu, Chozenshuu, El Manga Legendario, other sources, and the fact that it was referenced twice in the show. Yet for it to be an outlier means it shouldn't no longer be regarded, which clearly is not the case.