Roshi's Moon Busting is supported by almost every guidebook that mentions him. Each guidebook makes an important reference to Max Power Kamehameha as being a special form of Kamehameha that he used to destroy the moon.
The Daizenshuu also states that King Piccolo's full power caps at city-busting. Which statement is more believable?
You can also explain to us why Yajirobe, who is stronger than Full-Power Roshi, had the shit torn off of him when he heard that Piccolo had enough power to blow away a city and literally said that he couldn't believe Goku beat a guy who could destroy a city. Isn't this a guy who is superior to a moon-destroyer?
Go ahead and explain why Piccolo said that the destroyed city should be enough to make Goku comprehend just how gobsmackingly strong he is? Wouldn't saying he can destroy the Moon or the world itself if he wanted be more in line with that effect?
Even the Daizenshuu lists the Moon busting Kamehameha as a version of its own, and specifically states that it can destroy the moon. Max Power Kamehameha is intended to be moon busting, and Daimao is the first character to surpass that Kamehameha. There's just nowhere to go and hide that point.
As Tapion said, the Daizenshuu also states Daimao is only City level. If not treating Roshi's Moon Bust as an outlier, that just proves Roshi's Moon Bust >>>> Piccolo Daimao
Either Roshi is a Moon Buster and far above Piccolo, or Daimao is a City Buster and Roshi's feat is an outlier. You can't have your cake and eat it when statements from the very same source are so polarising.
Well let me answer you this back with a question: Proof that SsjB Goku compressed the effect of his Ki balls while attacking Zamasu, and in the end only caused a crater?
Character motivations alone show this is a poor example. Goku is someone concerned about the damage his attacks could do to the planet and Ki control was a major part of his training. Highly different from a villain uncaring about the state of the planet or its inhabitants.
I already addressed this point, that this tensing part can also be an outlier and just placed as a cinematic effect for the sole purpose of hyping that scene. Everything else doesn't go against it at all.
Only if you also ignore it being more than a one time thing and guidebooks even reinforcing Daimao caps out at City Level.
You're just demanding a feat that has been referenced twice and mentioned as a legitimate feat in guides as an outlier solely to keep Daimao below Moon level.
I don't know why I would need any more evidence than an uncontradicted statement. We aren't investigating a murder here. They don't have to prove anything, if it's uncontested, it's true. Simple.
I don't know why I would need any more evidence than an uncontradicted statement. We aren't investigating a murder here. They don't have to prove anything, if it's uncontested, it's true. Simple.
Except it's not when all evidence, be it feats or guidebook statements, point to Piccolo Daimao being no higher than City level and the context of his statement doesn't even cement it as being that of a single attack.
You clearly have a very different idea to what "uncontradicted" and "uncontested" mean compared to most people, it seems.
I think you're confused about what I'm hinting at. This is what I said:
CroMagnumDVH said:
Following feats very closely the way you're doing would simply put regular blasts from SsjB Goku below 23rd Budokai Piccolo's beams. That's not how it works, especially when feats in Dragon Ball are rather scarce and wouldn't make sense if you took them at face value. You have Roshi destroying the moon, but nothing later disagrees with that feat. Therefore, taking Daimao's feat and simply use it as a main basis would be wrong.
So I'm talking about the way you're abusing feats in respect to Dragon Ball which is something you have, for some reason, ignored and didn't address. And just to point out that Ki manipulation is a wide aspect, and Daimao hasn't mastered it. Ki control becomes better by time, and even Goku ang Vegeta learned to perfect that best during their training with Whis, and Daimao had bare knowledge of Ki manipulation, which is why he looks like someone who has serious constipation when releasing almost any Ki blast. He was also releasing small Ki blasts, so unless these Ki blasts are rock level because that's what we saw them destroy, and a rock level attack can hurt Goku at that point, then we're obviously not going to reach into an agreement here, whatsoever. It just means our premises are far apart and have no correlation in the first place.
As Tapion said, the Daizenshuu also states Daimao is only City level
That's not true. The Daizenshuu never claimed that his upper limit is city level. Until it mentions that this was his maximum power, or that it was his upper limit. This is from Daizenshuu 7 about his Bakuriki-Maha:
Bakuriki-Maha [Explosive Power Demon Wave]
First Appearance: Chapter 159
Category: ki manipulation
People: Piccolo Daimao
Special Characteristics: A technique where he grasps his fist, gathers the ki from his entire body into his hands, then fires it at his opponent. While he is accumulating ki, he produces a state of electrical discharge which creates static with the surrounding atmosphere. Because he becomes unable to defend himself during this time and leaves himself wide open, it is easy for him to be attacked by his opponent. This technique has the force to open a huge hole in the Earth, sending the person hit by it flying deep inside. He used this during his battle with Goku, and inflicted great damage. (Daizenshuu 2, p.207/Daizenshuu 4, p.111)
In this instance, Daizenshuu fails to quantify the amount of power Bakuriki-Maha holds, therefore this cannot be used to justify his maximum power. His other move, Bakuretsu-Makoho, is stated to hold ENOUGH POWER to destroy a city. Piccolo specifically used this technique in ORDER to show the people what the technique he'll use be, but he didn't purposedly deploy all his power:
Bakuretsu-Makoho [Explosive Demon Light Cannon]
First Appearance: Chapter 153
Category: ki manipulation
People: Piccolo Daimao
Special Characteristics: A ki blast with enough force to instantly turn a city into a wasteland. Piccolo Daimao announced on TV that he would use this technique to destroy one sector each year on May 9th. (Daizenshuu 4, p.111)
Daimao would put effort in concentrating his Ki, but then again, he wouldn't need to deploy ALL of his power at one go and only release a partial. He also concentrated the attack to that specific city as an example to what he'll do to each sector as even stated above in the Daizenshuu. NOTE THAT Daizenshuu says has ENOUGH power. The term "enough" means that consists of an unknown amount of Ki, but that amount of Ki is able to destroy a city. IN NO WAY does that translate to "It's his upper limit". That's just taking Daizenshuu's claims out of context and simply trying hard.
Funny that Daimao's Ki attack that he used against Goku wasn't quantified power wise at all, so if I'd want to take it out of context, I guess Daizenshuu implies it has a power of zero?
Makousen [Demon Beam]
First Appearance: Chapter 144
Category: ki manipulation
People: Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo
Special Characteristics: Gather ki in his clenched fists, he fires the technique by thrusting out one palm of his hand at a time. He is also able to perform a delayed attack. Piccolo Daimao used this technique to defeat Goku once. (Daizenshuu 2, p.207)
As explained above, Daizenshuu is not showing any contradiction in respect to Roshi's moon busting feat at all compared to Daimao. El Manga Legendario is even clearer, it directly states that Roshi's Kamehameha was a version of its own that can obliterate the moon, and that King Piccolo's blasts were just "powerful" and he used one of them to destroy a city for the broadcast he wanted to do. So it was a commercial thing, and since Roshi is supported more than not, that would render the tensing part as an outlier.
Character motivations alone show this is a poor example. Goku is someone concerned about the damage his attacks could do to the planet and Ki control was a major part of his training. Highly different from a villain uncaring about the state of the planet or its inhabitants.
That's just a flat out contradiction considering Piccolo cared about his plans of world terrorism even after destroying that City and believing that he killed Goku before being proven wrong. There were many times even Cell threw blasts that were aimed at the ground and didn't destroy Earth. In fact, just Cell destroying the Cell Games arena was dangerous enough to let even Goku escape from it, yet it didn't do quack to earth, and the feat was equivalent to that of Daimao's Bakuriki-Maha. But Cell is a villain who doesn't care about humans so why wouldn't he cause a catastrophe?
Only if you also ignore it being more than a one time thing and guidebooks even reinforcing Daimao caps out at City Level.
Guidebooks only explain Super Attacks based on their showings from the Manga. They also describe Kid Buu's attack as a Planet Busting attack. By your logic, Kid Buu's a planet buster at best.
So it makes more sense to you for a one time event to take precedence over a character consistently being shown to perform only City level attacks.
But you keep dismissing the fact that your own logic makes planet busting an outlier because stronger characters like the Androids and Cell didn't destroy any planet.
Except for actual distance between objects on the portrayal of the speed in the panels, that is.
This isn't coherent at all in a discussion that includes portrayed information such as Statements and Feats. Measuring the time it took for Piccolo's blast to reach the moon based on nothing is just an assumption.
CroMagnumDVH said:
Also, you clearly ignored the context of my post there, which was on the hyperbole of Daimao being able to destroy the Earth, not Roshi's Kamehameha.
You can also explain to us why Yajirobe, who is stronger than Full-Power Roshi, had the shit torn off of him when he heard that Piccolo had enough power to blow away a city and literally said that he couldn't believe Goku beat a guy who could destroy a city. Isn't this a guy who is superior to a moon-destroyer?
Yajirobe has absolutely no knowledge on Ki manipulation, and without actually being able to control Ki, he cannot cause any level of attacks similar to the Kamehameha, and so he would have no way to quantify the power of someone Ki based. Seeing someone destroy a city would mean alot to him since he has no idea what the amount of power required to cause that would take. It would just be an assumption of Yajirobi's part.
And as I addressed in my reply to CC, Daizenshuu never claims never claims that his upper limit is City busting. It's rather general in that regard, and is open to interpretation. Yet Max Power Kamehameha is stated to be Moon level by almost every guide directly.
False. It is explicitly stated that city-destruction is his limit:
Daizenshuu 7 said:
He has become even more powerful now that he has his youth restored. Easily capable of blowing away a city, his power rivals that of a small nuclear bomb.
Goku: “I-I didn’t want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet…But if I don’t defeat Freeza now, the universe itself will be in trouble…I don’t know if I’ll be able to pull this off right, but I’ve got to do it…You planets close to Namek! Give me just a little bit of your genki…!”
The anime has a similar statement on 2nd Form Freeza:
Daizenshuu itself debunks that. To prove how consistent Daizenshuu is with Kamehameha being a Moon level attack at its maximum in ODB, Daizenshuu 2 states that Super Kamehameha is a version of Kamehameha, that superior to the regular Kamehameha WHICH CAN DESTROY THE MOON (Kamehameha itself, Super > moon level attack):
You'll probably claim that I'm mistaking the interpretation of this, but wrong. Herms himself states that he worded the translation wrong and that originally it was supposed to mean that the regular Kamehameha is equal to moon busting:
So Daizenshuu 2 is quite consistent with this. It's also stated again in the Max Kamehameha section of Daizenshuu 7.
And it's mentioned that Kamehameha is a moon busting attack in El Manga Legendario:
So this seems to me just Daizenshuu bringing about an inconsistency. The amount of time it brought up Kamehameha = moon level outweighs that statement for King Piccolo's. But either way, can you send me to where I can read that? I checked Daizenshuu 7 character dictionary and didn't find it at all.
So this seems to me just Daizenshuu bringing about an inconsistency. The amount of time it brought up Kamehameha = moon level outweighs that statement for King Piccolo's. But either way, can you send me to where I can read that? I checked Daizenshuu 7 character dictionary and didn't find it at all.
Daizenshuu itself debunks that. To prove how consistent Daizenshuu is with Kamehameha being a Moon level attack at its maximum in ODB, Daizenshuu 2 states that Super Kamehameha is a version of Kamehameha, that superior to the regular Kamehameha WHICH CAN DESTROY THE MOON (Kamehameha itself, Super > moon level attack):
Circular fallacy is circular. The Daizenshuu states that King Piccolo's limits are city level - you can't just go and "but the Daizenshuu also says X" as if it's a valid debunk. At best it's cherry-picking between the two definitions.
And it's mentioned that Kamehameha is a moon busting attack in El Manga Legendario:
It's merely recapitulating what is happening in the volume. Nobody is denying that Roshi destroyed the Moon. People are denying that it is a feat that can be applied while disregarding literally every single other feat that conclusively suggests this one feat is an outlier and inconsistent.
False. It is explicitly stated that city-destruction is his limit:
Daizenshuu 7 said:
He has become even more powerful now that he has his youth restored. Easily capable of blowing away a city, his power rivals that of a small nuclear bomb.
The second most powerful attack of Piccolo Daimao is 97 Megatons (Small City Level), while the most powerful Nuclear Bomb in history, was the Tsar Bomb with 50 megatons.
The final attack of Piccolo (TB23) is 601,055 Gigatons (Island Level).
