Main problem regarding the Cell arc.

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan defeating the perfect life-form made sense to me. He was the only one who had the potential to do so, not counting the Boo saga because they always power-up for some reason.

Even-though I agree that Gohan becoming the main-protagonist came out of nowhere.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Boo saga is worse.

 

[ahill1]

If Gohan eliminated Super Boo, I wonder if we'd still have ppl arguing Goku > Gohan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I disagree your thoughts on Vegeta. Vegeta from Saiyan/Freeza arc knew who he was dealing with as they were majority part of his life and he knew how strong they are hence why his motivation was to destroy them without taking any chances.

Vegeta from Android/Cell arc is different compared to his Saiyan/Freeza counterpart since he just achieved the legendary power that was supposed to be the strongest ever hence why his ego was so huge and it's natural to see why he would want to challenge these so called 'monsters' that Trunks was so afraid of.

 

[Papasmurf]

Letting Cell live so he can have a "challenge" was fucking stupid considering Cell even in his lower 2nd form was able to make him flinch and cause his lip to bleed, so considering that Cell's power rose dramatically even from his first transformation, letting him transform again was basically a death sentence for him. Majin Vegeta allowing Boo to be revived is even stupider considering he could easily have teamed up with Galu and stood a better chance, yet he chose to walk into his death anyway. In the Saiyan and Freeza arcs Vegeta was far more pragmatic, choosing to resort to creating an artificial moon when he was outmatched despite despising his Ozaru state, and choosing to team up with the Earthlings who dealt him his first humiliating defeat so he could stand a better chance against Freeza and the Ginyus. The Cell and Boo arc versions of Vegeta's character are heavily OOC considering this.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta also wanted to fight Freeza second form (despite knowing that it would take him, Gohan and Krillin to handle base Freeza alone).

As for Cell, he (Vegeta) always thought that only a SSjin is the strongest and nothing can match it.

 

[Spiral-Force]

If Gohan eliminated Super Boo, I wonder if we'd still have ppl arguing Goku > Gohan.

Maybe they'd view it as the top dog taking a step back and having the next best thing finish the job.

 

[ahill1]

If Gohan eliminated Super Boo, I wonder if we'd still have ppl arguing Goku > Gohan.

Maybe they'd view it as the top dog taking a step back and having the next best thing finish the job.

That'd be likely. With Goku initially implying he would have defeated fat Boo, it wouldn't be solidly established to some Goku enthusiasts like it was at the CGs.

 

[Spiral-Force]

That'd be likely. With Goku initially implying he would have defeated fat Boo, it wouldn't be solidly established to some Goku enthusiasts like it was at the CGs.

And perhaps they'd also cling onto Piccolo's initial comment about Super Buu's body being perfectly suited to battle, and take that to mean he transitioned into a better shape but still has equivalent power to Fat Buu.

 

[Papasmurf]

I've seen people say Goku only was afraid of fighting Super Boo because he was smaller than a flea (despite the fact that he didn't realize it hindered him until after Super Boo showed up inside his own body), and that the anime filler showed he can hold his own against him in regular SSJ form lmao

Goku fanboyism - especially SSJ3 Goku fanboyism - never ceases to amaze me.

 

[ahill1]

I've also seen some defenders stating that Piccolo's comment of Super Boo being better "in every way" was only a general way of saying he's better in those aspects previously highlighted, since if you took that at face value it'd mean he's better at knitting as well lol. That was a classic.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

That's Simplexible for ya.

 

[Future Warrior]

Vegeta wasn't bastardized in the Cell arc but ok.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

Gohan was never this sort of pacifist people seem to think he was in the Cell Games. His speech to Cell was him trying to intimidate Cell into backing down since Gohan

A. Found no personal benefits in fighting or killing
B. Couldn't control his hidden power at will

He didn't have some sort of sudden moral code opposing violence or killing, he only said he didn't like fighting or killing to communicate to Cell that he'd rather end things peacefully and that nobody had to die or get hurt for things to end, which isn't a stretch for Gohan's character since he's naturally a gentle, peace-loving kid.

I don't know where this idea that Gohan was outright refusing to do anything against Cell comes from, because that was never the conflict of the story during this point. It was about Gohan trying to grasp his hidden power by embracing his rage and abandoning any sense of mercy or gentleness. That's why he became so sadistic when he went SSJ2.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

The same "pragmatic" Vegeta goaded Frieza into transforming despite already being weaker than him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an opponent can get from doing so. It's no different from letting Cell become perfect after being faced with the prospect of fighting a worthy opponent for his newfound powers.

Gohan never wanted to kill and he never enjoyed fighting the same way his father did so obviously his own peril won't draw out his hidden powers. Gohan did the only logical thing that an 11 year old in over his head can think of by warning Cell of his father's plans.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The same "pragmatic" Vegeta goaded Frieza into transforming despite already being weaker than him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an opponent can get from doing so. It's no different from letting Cell become perfect after being faced with the prospect of fighting a worthy opponent for his newfound powers.

Vegeta knew Freeza could transform and, with Zarbon as his only way to estimate, would likely believe it to be an instantaneous experience. Tell me, how much sense would it make to put in a lot of effort in fighting an opponent with the belief they could simply become stronger whenever they wanted through a transformation whilst you would end up weaker? Hell, Freeza even showed that just being on the verge of transforming was enough to have his Ki skyrocket.
The two situations aren't comparable at all and Vegeta's call was the logical decision with what information he had.

Gohan never wanted to kill and he never enjoyed fighting the same way his father did so obviously his own peril won't draw out his hidden powers. Gohan did the only logical thing that an 11 year old in over his head can think of by warning Cell of his father's plans.

He had no qualms with killing a soldier on Namek who's biggest crime was damaging the ship and he had no problem fighting with all he had to protect his father against Vegeta, and that was before he went through 4 years' worth of training with the single goal of defeating Artificial Humans.

 

[GreatSaiyanman]

He had no qualms with killing a soldier on Namek

Which would be an issue had Gohan actually refused to kill Cell, but that was never the case. None of the Z fighters are exactly itching to kill people or seek personal pleasure in doing so. That was what Gohan was getting at when he said he doesn't want to kill anybody.

The reason he tells Cell that he doesn't like fighting or killing is because he's expected to get mad over his own peril, which isn't how Gohan operates. He doesn't have a warrior's mindset like Goku does, so losing a fight or getting beat up won't do anything for him.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

The same "pragmatic" Vegeta goaded Frieza into transforming despite already being weaker than him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an opponent can get from doing so. It's no different from letting Cell become perfect after being faced with the prospect of fighting a worthy opponent for his newfound powers.

Vegeta knew Freeza could transform and, with Zarbon as his only way to estimate, would likely believe it to be an instantaneous experience. Tell me, how much sense would it make to put in a lot of effort in fighting an opponent with the belief they could simply become stronger whenever they wanted through a transformation whilst you would end up weaker? Hell, Freeza even showed that just being on the verge of transforming was enough to have his Ki skyrocket.
The two situations aren't comparable at all and Vegeta's call was the logical decision with what information he had.

Gohan never wanted to kill and he never enjoyed fighting the same way his father did so obviously his own peril won't draw out his hidden powers. Gohan did the only logical thing that an 11 year old in over his head can think of by warning Cell of his father's plans.

He had no qualms with killing a soldier on Namek who's biggest crime was damaging the ship and he had no problem fighting with all he had to protect his father against Vegeta, and that was before he went through 4 years' worth of training with the single goal of defeating Artificial Humans.

1. Freeza transformed because Vegeta told him to otherwise he would only do it if he felt threatened. Vegeta also outright said Freeza wouldn't change much and he was on verge of becoming a Super Saiyan so in other words, he was being an overconfident idiot.

2. The Freeza soldier posed a threat. It was kill or killed in that situation. It's not like with Cell where Gohan was forced to premeditate on bringing the death of someone in order to draw out reserves of power that he can't control.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1. Freeza transformed because Vegeta told him to otherwise he would only do it if he felt threatened. Vegeta also outright said Freeza wouldn't change much and he was on verge of becoming a Super Saiyan so in other words, he was being an overconfident idiot.

That slight increase can still be the deciding factor between winning and losing, with Vegeta having no reason to believe Freeza wouldn't immediately transform at any time, especially after the trio had already worn themselves out against his 1st form.
Compare that to against Cell, in which Cell becoming stronger could've been completely prevented by Vegeta's choice and he had no reference whatsoever on how strong Cell's Perfect form would be. The context of both situations are entirely different.

2. The Freeza soldier posed a threat. It was kill or killed in that situation. It's not like with Cell where Gohan was forced to premeditate on bringing the death of someone in order to draw out reserves of power that he can't control.

If you call someone Gohan easily oneshotted in a situation where he could've taken the soldier prisoner, sure...

Gohan also had to premeditate on fighting against the Saiyans and after seeing the losses his passivity incurred was fully prepared to fight them. His actions against Cell were nothing but a character regression.

None of the Z fighters are exactly itching to kill people or seek personal pleasure in doing so. That was what Gohan was getting at when he said he doesn't want to kill anybody.

Indeed, but at the same time, all of them are aware that most of their foes can't simply be talked down. Gohan was already aware of the kind of crimes Cell had committed and Cell's motivation for the Cell Game already painted him as the definition of a moustache-twirling villain so believing he could talk down his opponent was simply foolish and against what he'd shown thus far in being prepared to face enemies in a fight to the death.

He doesn't have a warrior's mindset like Goku does, so losing a fight or getting beat up won't do anything for him.

Except, you know, against Nappa and Vegeta where his life was on the line, as well as those of his friends in which he was the last hope for them twice. Yeah, totally different than when facing Cell...

 

[DBZAOTA482]

1. Freeza transformed because Vegeta told him to otherwise he would only do it if he felt threatened. Vegeta also outright said Freeza wouldn't change much and he was on verge of becoming a Super Saiyan so in other words, he was being an overconfident idiot.

That slight increase can still be the deciding factor between winning and losing, with Vegeta having no reason to believe Freeza wouldn't immediately transform at any time, especially after the trio had already worn themselves out against his 1st form.
Compare that to against Cell, in which Cell becoming stronger could've been completely prevented by Vegeta's choice and he had no reference whatsoever on how strong Cell's Perfect form would be. The context of both situations are entirely different.

2. The Freeza soldier posed a threat. It was kill or killed in that situation. It's not like with Cell where Gohan was forced to premeditate on bringing the death of someone in order to draw out reserves of power that he can't control.

If you call someone Gohan easily oneshotted in a situation where he could've taken the soldier prisoner, sure...

Gohan also had to premeditate on fighting against the Saiyans and after seeing the losses his passivity incurred was fully prepared to fight them. His actions against Cell were nothing but a character regression.

1. Vegeta also thought Zarbon wouldn't change much and he was totally caught off-guard. On top of that, him and Freeza are clearly different beings so thinking they're transformations would be the same is also stupid.

Like I said, Vegeta couldn't even compete with Freeza in his first form much less his transformed states so he was basically gambling with their chances over his delusions of becoming a Super Saiyan. At least with Cell, he was dominating the match and was simply acting on his natural desires (which Cell exploited).

2. That soldier was subservient to Freeza so he couldn't risk complying with the enemy. He was clearly out for blood. Also, Gohan and Krillin weren't that strong at the time so it's not like they can easily force the soldiers into submission.

Again, Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting like that and he's not a killer either so he can't just draw out said hidden powers in the mist of battle.