(Manga only) 50% Freezer vs 2nd Form Cell

[freezamite]

Freezer may have a bit of a strength advantage, but Cell has more techniques and more knowledge. Who do you think would win the fight?

I insist in the "manga only" part of the title. I know that in the anime 2nd form Cell is arguably dozens of times stronger than Freezer so there would be no fight if we go with Toei's (awful) work.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

50% frieza is fodder to ssj goku who is fodder to 17 who is fodder to 16 who is fodder to semi cell.Yea,frieza does indeed stand a chance

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Freezer may have a bit of a strength advantage, but Cell has more techniques and more knowledge. Who do you think would win the fight?

I insist in the "manga only" part of the title. I know that in the anime 2nd form Cell is arguably dozens of times stronger than Freezer so there would be no fight if we go with Toei's (awful) work.

Huh? Have i missed something?

 

[freezamite]

50% frieza is fodder to ssj goku who is fodder to 17 who is fodder to 16 who is fodder to semi cell.Yea,frieza does indeed stand a chance

50% Freezer is nearly double as strong as SSJ Goku (confirmed in the Cell saga and by Toriyama -the author- in an interview), and only a badly injured version of that Freezer was fodderized by SSJ Goku.
To say that SSJ Goku can fodderize Freezer is the same as saying that Krilin was stronger than Vegeta in the earth only because at the end of the fight he could've killed Vegeta if he wanted.

Here I'm speaking of a fresh 50% Freezer, not the one that barely survived the Genkidama and had a fraction of his total power.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Freezer may have a bit of a strength advantage, but Cell has more techniques and more knowledge. Who do you think would win the fight?

I insist in the "manga only" part of the title. I know that in the anime 2nd form Cell is arguably dozens of times stronger than Freezer so there would be no fight if we go with Toei's (awful) work.

Huh? Have i missed something?

i wanted to say that

 

[KyuubiAhri]

50% frieza is fodder to ssj goku who is fodder to 17 who is fodder to 16 who is fodder to semi cell.Yea,frieza does indeed stand a chance

50% Freezer is nearly double as strong as SSJ Goku (confirmed in the Cell saga and by Toriyama -the author- in an interview), and only a badly injured version of that Freezer was fodderized by SSJ Goku.
To say that SSJ Goku fodderized Freezer is the same as saying that Krilin was stronger than Vegeta in the earth only because at the end of the fight he could've killed Vegeta if he wanted.

Here I'm speaking of a fresh 50% Freezer, not the one that barely survived the Genkidama and had a fraction of his total power.

can you show us your evidence?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

You know, freezamite's theory is interesting. I might make a list based on that.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

You know, freezamite's theory is interesting. I might make a list based on that.

i hope you are just joking

 

[freezamite]

50% frieza is fodder to ssj goku who is fodder to 17 who is fodder to 16 who is fodder to semi cell.Yea,frieza does indeed stand a chance

50% Freezer is nearly double as strong as SSJ Goku (confirmed in the Cell saga and by Toriyama -the author- in an interview), and only a badly injured version of that Freezer was fodderized by SSJ Goku.
To say that SSJ Goku fodderized Freezer is the same as saying that Krilin was stronger than Vegeta in the earth only because at the end of the fight he could've killed Vegeta if he wanted.

Here I'm speaking of a fresh 50% Freezer, not the one that barely survived the Genkidama and had a fraction of his total power.

can you show us your evidence?

Of course. I have two solid evidences to support that (besides the interview Toriyama made, which would be the fourth and most definitive proof):
1: One of the most basic rules in any Dragon Ball fight is that the more injured a character is, the more strength he loses. It happens in nearly every single fight except for the ones where characters with unlimited energy are involved.
Raditz loses so much energy after Gohan's headbutt that even an injured Goku was able to immobilise him.
The whole fight against Vegeta revolved around him being weakened (first by Goku, then when Gohan fights him, the Genkidama and finally Gohan again as a giant ape).
Vegeta tricks Zarbon with sand in his eyes to sucker punch him and weaken him as much as possible (said by Vegeta himself).
After Freezer cuts Nail's arm, he comments that even if Nail can regenerate his arm, he can't regenerate the energy he lost because of the injury.
The whole Babidi spaceship mini-saga revolved around Babidi collecting the energy lost when a fighter was injured.
And we also have SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Bu, SSJ Vegeta vs A18, Piccolo vs A17 as fights where the energy lost was crucial to define their final outcome.

So why wouldn't Freezer be weakened by a Genkidama that nearly killed him? Of course he still had energy reserves, but let's not act like that attack didn't affect him. When he is cut by their own kienzans, he loses nearly all of his energy, so it's obvious he wasn't at his best condition.
On the other hand, Goku's rage boost fully replenished his strength and even increased it (chapter 325 is a solid proof of that, and then when Trunks SSJ appears it's confirmed that he was as strong as Goku in Namek and that Goku had that level of strength when it came back from Yadrat).

2: We know that Cell absorbed hundreds of thousands of humans to achieve enough power to go from hiding from SSJ Vegeta to beat Piccolo and Android 17 without even trying.
That's a power level increase of between 500.000 and 1.000.000 that allowed him to go from being between 15-20% weaker than Piccolo to a solid 20% over him.
It's easy to powerscale from Kami Piccolo to SSJ Goku.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

50% Freezer is nearly double as strong as SSJ Goku (confirmed in the Cell saga and by Toriyama -the author- in an interview), and only a badly injured version of that Freezer was fodderized by SSJ Goku.
To say that SSJ Goku fodderized Freezer is the same as saying that Krilin was stronger than Vegeta in the earth only because at the end of the fight he could've killed Vegeta if he wanted.

Here I'm speaking of a fresh 50% Freezer, not the one that barely survived the Genkidama and had a fraction of his total power.

can you show us your evidence?

Of course. I have two solid evidences to support that (besides the interview Toriyama made, which would be the fourth and most definitive proof):
1: One of the most basic rules in any Dragon Ball fight is that the more injured a character is, the more strength he loses. It happens in nearly every single fight except for the ones where characters with unlimited energy are involved.
Raditz loses so much energy after Gohan's headbutt that even an injured Goku was able to immobilise him.
The whole fight against Vegeta revolved around him being weakened (first by Goku, then when Gohan fights him, the Genkidama and finally Gohan again as a giant ape).
Vegeta tricks Zarbon with sand in his eyes to sucker punch him and weaken him as much as possible (said by Vegeta himself).
After Freezer cuts Nail's arm, he comments that even if Nail can regenerate his arm, he can't regenerate the energy he lost because of the injury.
The whole Babidi spaceship mini-saga revolved around Babidi collecting the energy lost when a fighter was injured.
And we also have SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Bu, SSJ Vegeta vs A18, Piccolo vs A17 as fights where the energy lost was crucial to define their final outcome.

So why wouldn't Freezer be weakened by a Genkidama that nearly killed him? Of course he still had energy reserves, but let's not act like that attack didn't affect him. When he is cut by their own kienzans, he loses nearly all of his energy, so it's obvious he wasn't at his best condition.
On the other hand, Goku's rage boost fully replenished his strength and even increased it (chapter 325 is a solid proof of that, and then when Trunks SSJ appears it's confirmed that he was as strong as Goku in Namek and that Goku had that level of strength when it came back from Yadrat).

2: We know that Cell absorbed hundreds of thousands of humans to achieve enough power to go from hiding from SSJ Vegeta to beat Piccolo and Android 17 without even trying.
That's a power level increase of between 500.000 and 1.000.000 that allowed him to go from being between 15-20% weaker than Piccolo to a solid 20% over him.
It's easy to powerscale from Kami Piccolo to SSJ Goku.

1.Mecha frieza is only slightly stronger than namek goku and mecha frieza >>>50% frieza which means 50% frieza aint anywhere near semi cell.(Goku himself killed frieza in the future timeline)
2.Cells absorbtion doesnt work like a simple addition.
3.Cell tanked massively amplified blast from piccolo so there's no way in hell he's only 20% stronger than him

 

[SSJ2]

 

[Void]

Man, remember when trolls actually put effort into their trolling?

 

[ahill1]

1st form Cell (Ginger Town) one shots 100% Freeza.

Also, @freezamite, if I'm understanding well your posts, are you saying Goku SSJ = Goku Kaioken x10 in the Namek saga?

 

[freezamite]

1.Mecha frieza is only slightly stronger than namek goku and mecha frieza >>>50% frieza which means 50% frieza aint anywhere near semi cell.(Goku himself killed frieza in the future timeline)
2.Cells absorbtion doesnt work like a simple addition.
3.Cell tanked massively amplified blast from piccolo so there's no way in hell he's only 20% stronger than him

1. Mecha Freezer was at best at around 1.000.000 units of strength. He (mistakenly) thought he had powered up because the only thing he could perceive at first glance (endurance when sustaining big ki increases) had actually improved (he could go at maximum strength without getting tired).
But there are multiple evidences he was much weaker:
- Gohan directly tells us that his ki should be much, much higher. In the scene Gohan assumes Mecha Freezer can still power up a lot more (from Gohan's pow that was the most logical assumption), but in the manga it's pretty obvious he was already at his maximum strength.
- He was fodder to SSJ Trunks, who had the same strength than Goku in Namek (confirmed at least two times).
- He wasn't vastly superior to his transformed father even when he previously surpassed Cold in his strongest form.

2. When it comes to non-androids, yes it does. If there had been any multiplier Cell would've become stronger than Piccolo having absorbed all the energy of one of his arms. His absorption was explained pretty well: he added other beings' energy to his own.

3. That Piccolo was already below A17 before Cell attacked, and then further weakened by Cell's own attacks. If Piccolo had done that attack in perfect condition I don't doubt Cell would've taken damage, but as it was when it fired the attack, Cell could've been twice as strong as Piccolo or even more.

Man, remember when trolls actually put effort into their trolling?

Yes. It's a shame they now just enter a thread, write some shitty phrase trying to prevent any kind of discussion and call it a day. You should work better in your trolling attempts.

1st form Cell (Ginger Town) one shots 100% Freeza.

I sincerely disagree. 1st form Cell (Ginger Town) was like SSJ Goku in Namek or even weaker. That wouldn't be even 25% Freezer's final form.

Also, User avatar freezamitee, if I'm understanding well your posts, are you saying Goku SSJ = Goku Kaioken x10 in the Namek saga?

Yes (in fact I think he was a bit weaker than KKx10, but not by much).
I know that my explanations are a bit large to read but considering that Toriyama himself confirmed that in an interview I don't think it's a bad read.
Tell me, in your opinion, how strong was SSJ Goku in Namek?

 

[ahill1]

I sincerely disagree. 1st form Cell (Ginger Town) was like SSJ Goku in Namek or even weaker. That wouldn't be even 25% Freezer's final form.

I completely disagree with Freeza not being at 100% when he said he'd go 100%. Maybe his power started to drop after the Super Nova vs Kamehameha clash, since he said he'd lose even more power was he caught in the explosion, but that's about it.

Yes (in fact I think he was a bit weaker than KKx10, but not by much).

That doesn't make sense. Even if you think Freeza's 100% was way below his 50%, Gohan was completely flabbergasted with Goku having SSJ and didn't state anything about it having less power than his Kaioken x20.

but considering that Toriyama himself confirmed that in an interview I don't think it's a bad read.

He said he felt more like a 10x boost when drawing. That doesn't invalidate the boost being 20x+, at least in the Namek saga, whereas it was pretty much implied the SSJ was a higher boost than Kaioken x20.

Tell me, in your opinion, how strong was SSJ Goku in Namek?

Since I have Goku base at 7,000,000 his SSJ would be 350,000,000 imo.

 

[freezamite]

I completely disagree with Freeza not being at 100% when he said he'd go 100%. Maybe his power started to drop after the Super Nova vs Kamehameha clash, since he said he'd lose even more power was he caught in the explosion, but that's about it.

That goes directly against the overall rule that an injured character loses strength. And why would Freezer lose energy if he was caught in the explosion of Namek but not when he was caught on the Genkidama?
Freezer being at 100% when he went 100% would be bad writing considering the context of the series, so unless there's a statement out there that I missed confirming that Freezer doesn't lose energy when he is injured, then he should do it.
He clearly loses energy when he is cut with the kienzans, he is aware that he will lose energy if the planet explosion catches him and his "even injured I still can kill you all" sentence wouldn't have any sense if he was still fresh as if nothing had happened so everything points to him having lost energy.
Furthermore, that would cause further contradictions with the manga, because why did Goku give Cell a senzu bean if Freezer wasn't affected by the injuries and of course that ability transferred to him?

That doesn't make sense. Even if you think Freeza's 100% was way below his 50%, Gohan was completely flabbergasted with Goku having SSJ and didn't state anything about it having less power than his Kaioken x20.

1. Ki perception is not like a scoutter. It depends on a lot of factors that go from the attitude of a fighter, the strength the perceiver has... and even when it works, it doesn't give a number but a notion of how strong someone is. An obvious example is when Cell powers up in front of SSJ2 Gohan and everyone is terrified at how strong Cell is. Why would they be terrified if he was fodder to SSJ 2 Gohan? They didn't realise Gohan's superiority until he trashed Cell.
There are dozens of examples that demonstrate how vague the ki detection is compared to the scoutter (hell, even Cell believed he could defeat SSJ2 Gohan despite being much weaker).
And given that Gohan went from being at 100% fresh condition when Goku used the KKx20 to nearly not having any energy when Goku turned into a SSJ (he gave most of his energy to Piccolo and used what he had left in a Ki blast against Freezer), I'm not so sure Gohan could've been able to properly compare KKx20 Goku with SSJ Goku.

2. Even if Gohan could have compared Goku's Ki to his previous KK states with 100% of accuracy, it wouldn't make any sense for Gohan to state it. Goku was a SSJ and he was stronger than Freezer at that point, why would Gohan have the necessity to say "hey father, don't get cocky because you aren't that strong"?
And in the same way he doesn't state anything about it having less power, he also didn't state anything about him having become stronger than ever.

He said he felt more like a 10x boost when drawing. That doesn't invalidate the boost being 20x+, at least in the Namek saga, whereas it was pretty much implied the SSJ was a higher boost than Kaioken x20.

Unless Toriyama was possessed by a spirit when he was drawing the manga and could only guess what that spirit had on mind, then what he felt is what was drawn.
One doesn't draw a character with the idea of giving him a power of 1.000 and then that character magically ends with a power of 10.000 unless he screws the writing.
He drew the SSJ being close to the KKx10, and that also happens to be the better approach considering that your option implies a multitude of writing errors for Toriyama's part.
I insist in that if we go with your interpretation then Freezer only looses strength when the plot requires it and not when he should, Cell is also a contradiction because shouldn't loose any strength if Freezer didn't loose it, and Toriyama basically fucked everything up only to portray an idea that wasn't what he had on mind to begin with. And all that while Freezer speaks as if he had actually lost strength which would make the writing even worse (if Toriyama didn't want to weaken Freezer, it would've been as easy as to make him say something like "that was your best attack monkey? Because it has felt like a mosquito bite to me").

If you had some indisputable evidences that this could be the case... but it seems you don't. Gohan could've noticed and could've said that the SSJ was weaker than the KKx20 even if he had no reason to say so, but then he could've also said that he was much stronger than ever before and he didn't say that either. So unless you bring other more solid evidences, then I have to stick with my position here. Toriyama could make some mistakes, but he wasn't completely retarded either.

Since I have Goku base at 7,000,000 his SSJ would be 350,000,000 imo.

Those numbers would add even more inconsistencies to the series in my opinion. Firstly, Cell's absorption method would be inconsistent. If by absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans he gained hundreds of millions of power, or nearly every human he absorbed was as strong as Raditz or he should've surpassed Piccolo once he got the energy of his arm.
On the other hand, 7.000.000 for Goku's base state would also contradict the 40 tons feat of the Bu saga that scales well with a base power limit of 300.000 to 400.000 at best.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Freezamite, what do you think of these gaps?

Goku- 100
Goku 20x KK- 2.000
Goku 20x KK/KHH- 3.000
Freeza 50%- 3.000
Freeza 50% (post spirit bomb)- 750
SSJ Goku- 1.500 (i think SSJ must still be at least a greater multiplier than 10x KK nonetheless)
Freeza 100% (post spirit bomb)- 1.500 (and decreasing)
Freeza (unseen true max)- 6.000

 

[freezamite]

Freezamite, what do you think of these gaps?

Goku- 100
Goku 20x KK- 2.000
Goku 20x KK/KHH- 3.000
Freeza 50%- 3.000
Freeza 50% (post spirit bomb)- 750
SSJ Goku- 1.500 (i think SSJ must still be at least a greater multiplier than 10x KK nonetheless)
Freeza 100% (post spirit bomb)- 1.500 (and decreasing)
Freeza (unseen true max)- 6.000

I like them, specially how you give the Goku 20x KK/KHH a more modest increase than the kameHame he fired against Raditz taking into account that Goku wasn't in perfect condition when he fired the KKx20 and that the KK trashed Goku's body at a fast pace which means that when he fired the KameHame he was already weaker than when he ignited the technique. It's exactly the same approach I would use considering all the factors involved.

That being said I still would make some small changes if you don't mind:
Goku 100
Goku 20x KK no injuries 2.000
Goku 20x KK in the context of the fight -> 1.800 (he had already lost some power when he used the KKx20)
Goku 20xKK/KHH - 2.500
Freezer 50% 2.300 (he attempted to stop the KHH with his brute strength, but in the end he had to fire a -weak- Ki attack which means that the KameHame had more strength than him)

Freezer 50% (post spirit bomb) - 750
Freezer 100% (post spirit bomb)- 1.000
SSJ Goku - 985
Freezer 100% (unseen true max)- 4.000

Those last numbers need a bit of an explanation. For Freezer 100% (post spirit bomb) I take into account not only the spirit bomb damage, but also the damage he took from Goku SSJ and the energy he further lost trying to fight against him. By giving him 750 just after the Genkidama it's more plausible for him to resist Goku's attacks (even if Goku didn't want to kill him he was still enraged and I don't think he restrained a lot against 50% Freezer) considering Goku also wanted to give him the opportunity to fight at 100% and possibly didn't get used to the SSJ form instantly.

Then, the other thing to comment is the scaling between 50% uninjured Freezer and 100% uninjured Freezer. Freezer's lack of training meant he had to force his body to fight with all his power, and that forcing came with an increase in his muscle mass. Even if his overall power increased a lot and his speed still increased in comparison to his 50% self, it's also explained in the manga that abnormally big bodies are slower than they should. Since Freezer's % weren't an exact metric but an approximation he made, and he had never used 100% of his strength before, I think the better approach is to make him a bit weaker than he would normally be in his 100% due to that.
That's why I don't give 100% Freezer 2x the energy 50% Freezer had, and that also better scales into the Cell saga than a straight up 2x increase.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Actually, i don't use 2.25x multiplier for the KHH Goku used against Raditz. I think Goku's max power back then
was more than 416, which was just his initial unweighted power.
Also, as i said, i think you should keep SSJ a stronger boost than 10x KK at least, otherwise it'd make no sense
for Goku to use it.

 

[freezamite]

Actually, i don't use 2.25x multiplier for the KHH Goku used against Raditz. I think Goku's max power back then
was more than 416, which was just his initial unweighted power.
Also, as i said, i think you should keep SSJ a stronger boost than 10x KK at least, otherwise it'd make no sense
for Goku to use it.

Meaning he could increase it a bit more? Well, it wasn't stated but it wouldn't be impossible although I prefer to use as few "invisible" energy increases as possible when interpreting the manga.
Regarding the KKx10, it had a lot of drawbacks. It destroyed Goku's body even when using fully mastered multipliers so if SSJ Goku was already strong enough to surpass Freezer the KK would have been a bad decision by Goku's part even if it could've used it.
But I don't think he could've done a KK at that point because the KK requires a perfect control of one's ki (and that means no stress at all), so Goku's rage alone surely prevented him from using it even if he wanted to do so (it's the same reason we never saw a SSJ+KK, the stress of the SSJ form prevented even attempting the technique. It would've been a suicide).