Movie 10 Goku Analysis

Pakl

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There have been much debates over Goku was a SSJ2 or just a SSJ in the end of the beam struggle. I am going to prove that he was actually a SSJ until the very end.

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Goku, Gohan and Goten are all shown as SSJs in this picture.

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This is a Movie 10 drawing from the Daizenshuu which shows Gohan as a SSJ and Goku's hair like SSJ style.

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However, this is another Daizenshuu drawing which shows Goku like a SSJ2. However, Goten's hair also stands more than normal. That proves that posters like that from the Daizenshuu can't be taken too seriously because they contradict themselves all the time.

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However, this is a picture from the movie showing Gohan has two bangs stand after Goku said "now" implying he might had been SSJ till the end.

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Another drawing which show Gohan as a SSJ2 and Goku as a SSJ.

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Another poster showing Goku and Goten are SSJs while Gohan was SSJ2.

As you can see, there are posters which support that Gohan and Goku were just SSJs and others which show Goku and Gohan have SSJ2 hair which means they contradict themselves and can't really be used for a total proof.

Now, let's get into the SSJ2 appearance.

101112213418_ssj2.jpg


As you can see, SSJ2 Goku has 1 bang in the middle of his har and 1 small bang in any side of his hair. However, Goku in Movie 10 just had 1 bang stands after saying "now" which indicates that the reason why his hair changed was just because it got pushed back by the attack after saying "now"and there are far more evidence to support it as true.

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This is Goku in the Rosat when he powered up, you can clearly see that his hair changed into just 1 bang in the middle of his hair, similliar to Goku in Movie 10.

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Goku fired a Kamehameha at Frieza and had one bang stands just like in the Rosat and in Movie 10.  Where I get into that, basically when Gokuy powers up to FP, his hair chages into one bang stands as seen in the events I just showed while SSJ2 has two small bangs in the sides. Goku's hair in Movie 10 is the same thing like in the Rosat and when he attacked Frieza which is just the result of going FP. If Gokudid use SSJ2 in Movie 10 so he should have the same appearance he had vs Fat Buu.

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Goku has 1 bang stands here when he escaped from Kid Buu's blast but he was a SSJ. Remember, this is also after the SSJ2 Concept was known.

Goku having one bang is either when he uses max power, max speed, goes all out or fires a Kamehameha. Goku having 1 bang stands in the middle of his hair and two small bangs in the sides is SSJ2.

Now, let's get into the real argument to why Goku was not SSJ2.

Movie 10 was revealed when SSJ2 Goku was barely finished to be drawn in the Manga. It makes no sense that Goku can go SSJ2 in Movie 10 if the Manga just revealed his SSJ2 a few days before. Plus, Toei overall shows the forms in the Anime before showing it in the movies because the Anime came first. SSJ2 Goku was revealed in the Anime far after Movie 10 was revealed. Toei never even showed SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan in Movie 12 because they were not revealed in the Anime. Saying Toei showing a form in the movie before showing it in the Anime is like saying the Anime can show the events before the Manga did. Toei even waited until SSJ Vegeta would be introduced in the Anime so they can release Movie 6 despite the fact they copied his look from the Manga. Same case happened in Movie 10. Toei copied SSJ2 Gohan from the Manga but waited until his SSJ2 would be shown in the Anime. Toei showed the concept art for SSJ2 Gohan but never did with Goku implying he never was a SSJ2 somply because it was barely drawn in the Manga.

Manga > Anime > Movies.

Since SSJ2 Goku was barely drawn in the Manga, it makes no sense he can exist in Movie 10. Think about it, why would Goku go SSJ2 if the Omega Blaster got weaker and was most likely as weak as the first one when Goku arrived and they overpowered it? It makes no sense.

There are even evidence to support Goku's appearance in the movie being the same like Gohan when he beat Cell.

Goten never said "I wish dad was here" In the Japanese dub, Goten says "Shenron, help us" and the DragonBalls SEEMINGLY hear Goten. Then, Goku arrives. Notice when Goku arrives, he has a strange aura surrounding his body which shows it was just his spirit. Goku encourging his sons like he did with Gohan vs Cell and Trunks distracted Broly like Vegeta did vs Cell is the same so why should Goku's appearance be any different?

Goku is shown to be behind Gohan and Goten in the end of the beam struggle. Why is he behind? Yes, he is behind them, supporting them so they can use FP just like he did with Gohan vs Cell. In fact if you watch the Japanese dub, whenever someone transforms or goes FP, there is a background noise and Goku said "now" very quitely after his hair changed. The Daizenshuu even says "Is the Goku who appeared was real or not?" insinuating Goku's appearance there was just like with Gohan when he beat Cell. Goku doesn't have vody so he can't be real. Plus, the Dragon Balls should grant two wishes while it seemingly granted one and scattered. The Daizenshuu also says that Goku was donating his ki to Gohan which is also stated by Gohan in the Anime. That can easily be the case for Movie 10 Goku as his sons felt his present and ki in both events. Broly seeing Goku is also just to show that they are rivals IMO. Goku is after all Broly's number 1 enemy since they were babies.

Broly was beaten by SSJ2 Gohan + SSJ Goten + MSSJ Goku donating his ki like he did with Gohan vs Cell is implied.

Now, I am going to counter some points that I know Broly Supporters would bring in a debate.

1. Goku was shown as a SSJ in Movie 4 despite the fact that he was not in the Manga so Toei just shows their forms as they lie. That means Goku can easily be SSJ2 in Movie 101.

Counter Argument: The only reason why Goku had appeared as a SSJ is because Movie 4 is based on the Ginyu Saga where Vegeta describes Goku as the SSJ. This is why King Kai's words are the same like Vegeta when he saw Goku on Namek. There were statements about SSJ Goku in the Anime while there is absoluterly no statement or hint in the Anime that Goku has SSJ2. Plus, it's not like Toei showed the real SSJ design. They just showed their own form based on the Ginyu Saga events.

2. Goku used Kaioken X10 in the Movie 3 so thatshows Toei can do what they want.

Counter Argument: Showing a Kaioken Multiplier is very different than showing a form since it was not drawn yet. Besides, Toei most likely followed the logic of Saiyan Saga Goku who used Kaioken X4 at 8,200 so most likely followed math logic but never knew it was the case based on the fact that Toriyama had not made the Frieza Saga at that time and Goku being able to use Kaioken X20.

3. Goku's hair did change while Goten's hair didn't proving Goku was a SSJ2 in the end of the Kamehameha.

Counter Argument: If you notice, Goten's hair overall almost doesn't change like Goku when he powered up. Goku's hair changes when he fires a Kamehameha or power up to max like in the Rosat and vs Frieza but Goten's hair almost never did.

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Goten's hair doesn't change when he powers up or uses Kamehameha at FP like Goku.

With all of this, I think Goku being SSJ2 in Movie 10 is unlikely. Gohan going SSJ2 in the end is true though.

Now to counter some point that I have heard about Piccolo who "indirectly states" SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Adult Gohan are in the same ballpark.

Counter Argument: Piccolo never witnessed Gohan's fight vs Dabura. From the fact that BOTH Vegeta and Goku were surprised at how weak Gohan had become when he fought Dabura even after sensing his ki in the World Tourment proves Gohan is much weaker than they thought. There is no reason Piccolo should know how weak Gohan is then even if he felt his ki like Goku and Vegeta did and it's supported by the fact Piccolo seemed to think SSJ2 Teen Gohan and SSJ2 Kid Gohan are in the same level which is wrong. As we know sensing ki is not always the case as Gohan felt Cell's ki after he returned and still thought he could win. However, he just realized how strong Cell was after Cell used his ki blast. The difference between SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Adult Gohan has to be extremely massive because SSJ2 Majin Vegeta should be much stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who considered SSJ2 Adult Gohan trash because he is much weaker than when he was a kid
 

GokhanDBZfan

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Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
 

Six Trails

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GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
Toei probably knew Goku had SS3.

Movie 10 premiered March 12th, 1994.
Chapter 474 premiered June 14th, 1994.

Those dates are clearly close enough for Toei to predict the future.

Broly is much stronger than SS2 Goku. No one can deny it.
 

SSJ2

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SSJ Vegetto said:
GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
Toei probably knew Goku had SS3.

Movie 10 premiered March 12th, 1994.
Chapter 474 premiered June 14th, 1994.

Those dates are clearly close enough for Toei to predict the future.

Broly is much stronger than SS2 Goku. No one can deny it.
I would disagree. Toriyama seemed to have no long term plans when he was writing the manga, it's quite possible that SSJ3 hadn't even been conceived yet.
 

Six Trails

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Toriyama probably used Trunks' time machine to go back in time and let Toei know that he made Super Saiyan 3 in the manga, so Toei could keep Broly above SS2 Goku, and at the same time have Goku be able to handle Broly in Hell.

Broly is >>> SS2 Kid Gohan, and Goku is only "perhaps" greater than Kid Gohan.

Anyone who says otherwise is prejudiced against Broly
 

Syn

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GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
I love seeing this argument pop up every time I see it.

It's the biggest assumption of all time it's hilarious. It's like saying Yamcha can take care of Nappa because they both died in the Saiyan Saga.
 

Dagon

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Goku's hair was blown back from the sudden release of ki. That happens all the time. Base Goku's hair stands on end from time to time but that doesn't mean he's turning False SSJ in those moments. M10 is supposed to be during or before the tournament in the Buu Saga, and Goku hadn't revealed his ability to go SSJ2 yet, so he wasn't SSJ2.
 

SSJ2

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Watch the film closely and you will see that Goku's hair moves to SSJ2 form prior to firing his blast. There was no wind present when Goku fired his blast.
 

Lord Brofist

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1.) SSj2 Goku first appeared around 3 months prior to movie 10's release when he fought Yakon. Thus showing that Toei was quite aware of SSj2 Goku at the time as well as anyone else who bother to reads the manga which being the popular ass shit that it is in Japan, would be everyone other than their dead grandmother...and even that's questionable.

2.) Goku clearly shows as already indicated the change of hairstyle when going full force with the Kamehameha, before the wind starts blowing.

3.) Said Goku's hair is distinctively different from Goten's hair despite sharing the exact same SSJ hair style.

4.) This includes the conept art for the movie as well where Goku is shown to have a completely different style to Goten. You know...the kid who has the exact same hairstyle as him.

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
24c5e7c0.gif
</div>

Also here's some other images involving Movie 10 concepts from Movie 10 OOP manga.

1.)
<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
3406244-4792621664-33055.jpg
</div>

2.)

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
images
</div>

*Whispers* That's SSj2 Goku, see him? See those pictures of what is clearly SSj2 Goku? See the fact that even concept designs here show that Toei knew what SSJ2 Goku was? I want you all to look at it carefully. Look at that nice SSj2 looking hair Goku's got next to his little son who doesn't? See it? Bask in its warmth kids...bask in it.
 

SSJ2

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Brofist said:
That's SSj2 Goku, see him?
But Brofist, that one windy image of Goku looking like a Super Saiyan overrules all of this! You should know better by now!
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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Just in case.

DBZ Movie 10: The Dangerous Duo! Super-Warriors Can’t Rest (Broly Second Coming) Release Date: March 12, 1994
Manga Release (4 months back): "One Must Enter the Tiger’s Den…" (Dec 6, 1993)
Manga Release (6 months back): "Shin’s Surprising True Identity" (Oct 11, 1993)
Latest Manga Chapter Release: "Countdown" (Mar 7, 1994)
Between Episodes: #220 ("The Man Behind the Curtains Appears!! The Evil Mage Babidi") -#221 ("The Awaiting Trap!! A Challenge From the Demon Realm")
 

Pakl

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SSJ Vegetto said:
GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
Toei probably knew Goku had SS3.

Movie 10 premiered March 12th, 1994.
Chapter 474 premiered June 14th, 1994.

Those dates are clearly close enough for Toei to predict the future.

Broly is much stronger than SS2 Goku. No one can deny it.
And so what if they knew it? They knew the entire Cell Arc from the start.. Does that mean Metal Coola is now Perfect Cell's level

M10 Broli is not stronger than SSjin 2 Goku and even if he is, it's not by much... Provide evidence
 

Pakl

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Lord Brofist said:
1.) SSj2 Goku first appeared around 3 months prior to movie 10's release when he fought Yakon. Thus showing that Toei was quite aware of SSj2 Goku at the time as well as anyone else who bother to reads the manga which being the popular ass shit that it is in Japan, would be everyone other than their dead grandmother...and even that's questionable.

2.) Goku clearly shows as already indicated the change of hairstyle when going full force with the Kamehameha, before the wind starts blowing.

3.) Said Goku's hair is distinctively different from Goten's hair despite sharing the exact same SSJ hair style.

4.) This includes the conept art for the movie as well where Goku is shown to have a completely different style to Goten. You know...the kid who has the exact same hairstyle as him.

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
24c5e7c0.gif
</div>

Also here's some other images involving Movie 10 concepts from Movie 10 OOP manga.

1.)
<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
3406244-4792621664-33055.jpg
</div>

2.)

<div class='spoiler_toggle'>Spoiler: click to toggle</div><div class="spoiler" style="display:none;">
images
</div>

*Whispers* That's SSj2 Goku, see him? See those pictures of what is clearly SSj2 Goku? See the fact that even concept designs here show that Toei knew what SSJ2 Goku was? I want you all to look at it carefully. Look at that nice SSj2 looking hair Goku's got next to his little son who doesn't? See it? Bask in its warmth kids...bask in it.
I like how you keep repeating the same things I addressed in my post.. If you could of refted my post, you would go one by one but instead you use the same things I addressed.. That's bas or either, you can't read... You seem to do it a lot
 

Pakl

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Syn said:
GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
I love seeing this argument pop up every time I see it.

It's the biggest assumption of all time it's hilarious. It's like saying Yamcha can take care of Nappa because they both died in the Saiyan Saga.
Wow, you are like those annoying kids who make up rules for themselves.. Why don't you refute what I say like I did in your thread? Either do it or accept I am right :CC
 

Lord Brofist

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Get real kid, you haven't offered one goddamn bit of evidence on your part and you know it. The moment anyone here gives even a mediocre of evidence you instantly try to twist it around without offering anything yourself. Just like your BS excuse that only the anime has to be used, which I already countered by the fact that if such a case were true, it would be nearly impossible for Gotenks to use the ghosts in movie 12 when he only first used it literally 3 days ago in the anime.

At risk of being suspended, here's my suggestion. How about "you" fucking learn to read and when you do, we can have a proper debate where you can actually bring some decent amount of evidence to the table. Otherwise, get the fuck out of here mate.
 

SSJ2

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Hahaha Brofist, I would never suspend you.

Pakl on the other hand, yes. Finally warning Pakl. One more display like this and you will be gone for good.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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Syn said:
GokhanDBZfan said:
Whether he was SSJ2 or not, his SSJ2 was strong enough to stop Broly later in the Afterlife with Paikuhan's help.
I love seeing this argument pop up every time I see it.

It's the biggest assumption of all time it's hilarious. It's like saying Yamcha can take care of Nappa because they both died in the Saiyan Saga.
If you would have actually watched Movie 12, you would have known, that Goku states, that with the exception of Majin Buu, nobody has pushed him to Super Saiyan 3 until Janemba came around.

Since Paragus appears in the movie, it's clear that Goku only needed Super Saiyan 2 to beat Broly.
That fits with Broly's feats in Movie 10, where he is met with some resistance from SSJ2 Teen Gohan.
It's also a more reasonable way to come to a conclusion, rather than nitpicking a five seconds long scene.
 

Pakl

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I am begining to think some people around hee are clearly biased... The evidence is aready provided and people keep ignoring it

Unlike them, I go through their posts one by one and address it with evidence while they don't do it and just repeats the same things I went by explaining and addressing.. The only way of settling it is if someone would debate me to details and then the right one would be obvious to see
 

Pyro

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Guliver said:
I am begining to think some people around hee are clearly biased... The evidence is aready provided and people keep ignoring it

Unlike them, I go through their posts one by one and address it with evidence while they don't do it and just repeats the same things I went by explaining and addressing.. The only way of settling it is if someone would debate me to details and then the right one would be obvious to see
No, that's not the case. It doesn't matter if someone debates you down to the flimsiest of details because the debate will never end until someone decides it isn't worth it and leaves, which usually ends up being whoever is opposing you, which ends up with you declaring you won for whatever reason. Then the circle repeats. It doesn't matter if people agree or disagree with you, because the debate itself grows tiresome.
 

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