Movie Scaling Integrated with Anime/Manga

[Dagon]

For the sake of this mental exercise let's see how the movies can align with the anime/manga scaling under the premise that they are all somehow in one timeline.

I will start with Cooler as that's the one on my mind for now.

For Movie 5, there's two primary ways to scale it:

1. Base Goku > Freeza
2. Invisible Kaio-Ken x10 Goku > Freeza

Of course #1 will bring the minimalists and nerfers out in force, but if it works it works.

Given Cooler said Goku was strong enough to beat Freeza, the simplest starting point is placing base or invisible KKx10 Goku at SSJ Goku's level on Namek. For the sake of argument I'll use the official 150 million mark for that.

Movie 5 Option 1:

Goku:
~Base: 150,000,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 3,000,000,000
~Super Saiyan: 7,500,000,000

Movie 5 Option 2:

Goku:
~Base: 15,000,000
~Invisible Kaio-Ken x10: 150,000,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 300,000,000
~Super Saiyan: 750,000,000

Right away I'm sure a lot of people will like Option 2 better as I know plenty of people don't have characters breaking 1 billion in their lists till at least the Androids or Imperfect Cell sagas. However, we do have Xenoverse 2 giving a Metal Cooler's Battle Power as 10 billion, which would fit better with option 1.

Some may say it's just a reference to Movie 6's title of 10 billion super warriors, but again if it works or works.

Continuing to Movie 6, there are a few ways to take the 10 billion battle power.

1. Initial Metal Cooler
2. Post-Repairs Metal Cooler
3. Metal Cooler Core post energy absorption

In Movie 6, Goku uses Kaio-Ken against Metal Cooler before using Super Saiyan, which may suggest that Goku's Kaio-Ken x20 has matched or surpassed his own SSJ state from Movie 5 or at least 5th Form Cooler in Movie 5. For brevity I'll just use Movie 5 Goku's SSJ state as the mark.

Movie 6 Option 1(Movie 5 base Goku > Freeza)

Goku:
~Base: 375,000,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 7,500,000,000
~SSJ: 18,750,000,000

Movie 6 Option 2(Movie 5 Invisible KKx10 Goku > Freeza)

Goku:
~Base: 37,500,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 750,000,000
~Super Saiyan: 1,875,000,000

So far it may go either way. In Option 1 Metal Cooler being 10 billion could work with KKx20 Goku at 7.5 billion as Cooler was able to tank Goku's punches. However, SSJ Goku at least seemed to need a lot of effort to break off Metal Cooler's arm, and Goku's almost 2x gap over Metal Cooler looks unnecessarily big.

With Option 2, we could put Metal Cooler's 10 billion as his post-Corrections or Core power and it could work fairly straightforwardly like that.

Let's consider a third option, one stemming from Movie 5 base Goku > Freeza. Let's have Movie 6 KKx20 Goku at Movie 5 5th Form Cooler's level instead.

For Movie 5 5th Form Cooler, I'll keep it simple and use the same gap for 5th form Cooler vs KKx20 Goku as SSJ Goku vs 5th Form Cooler as they had near equally impressive feats against each other in those respective forms.

Option 1-B:

Goku(Movie 5)
~Base: 150,000,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 3,000,000,000
~Super Saiyan: 7,500,000,000

5th form Cooler: 4,743,400,000

5th form Cooler is just over 1.58x KKx20 Goku and SSJ Goku is just over 1.58x 5th Form Cooler this way.

Now continuing into Movie 6, I'll bump up Kaio-Ken x20 Goku to simplify the numbers.

Goku(Movie 6):
~Base: 240,000,000
~Kaio-Ken x20: 4,800,000,000
~SSJ: 12,000,000,000

This one could easily fit with initial Metal Cooler at 10 billion. If a 1.2x gap isn't enough for you to think Goku could remove Metal Cooler's arm you could of course just bump his power up a little.

We could try the same sort of tanking gap used for Cooler and Goku earlier for Movie 6's KKx20 and SSJ Goku vs Metal Cooler at 10 billion.

Movie 6 Goku:
~Base: 316,226,666.66
~KKx20: 6,325,540,305
~SSJ: 15,811,333,333

This one seems pretty solid as it puts Movie 6 KKx20 Goku comfortably over 33% greater than Movie 5 5th Form Cooler which would justify Goku trying Kaio-Ken before Super Saiyan against Metal Cooler initially.

Anyway, that is my personal musings for Movies 5-6 power scaling. Let me know what you come up with if this gave you any ideas.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

How I view it:

At the beginning of the movie, Cooler thinks of the idea of Base Goku maybe surpassing Freeza. The level in which Base Goku was weaker than Freeza was only No Hands Freeza. The chain it'd be like this:

4th form Cooler >= Base Goku (Protecting Gohan) >/= No Hands Freeza > FP Base Goku. (Namek)

Cooler after fighting for a while with Base Goku realizes that he is good enough to defeat Freeza. His new placement is:

Base Goku (fully healed) >= 4th form Cooler >= Base Goku (Protecting Gohan) >/= No Hands Freeza > FP Base Goku

Goku states that Cooler's power is greater than Freeza's (in general) and then smacks Cooler as a SSJ which makes Cooler undestand why his little brother was nothing to him. As there is nothing that points out on Cooler being far greater than Freeza I go by the minimum, so even Kaioken x20 Goku from M5 is still weaker than 100% Namek Freeza.

SSJ Goku (Movie 5) >> FF Cooler ? SSJ Goku (Namek) >= 100% Freeza > Kaioken x20 Goku (Movie 5) > Kaioken x20 Goku (Namek)

In Movie 6, Cooler said that Goku's capabilities has increased and that he has gotten stronger too, this only lead us to believe:

Metal Cooler > FF Cooler

Base Goku (Movie 6) > Base Goku (Movie 5)

Now, could Kaioken x20 Goku in Movie 6 surpass 100% Freeza, Final Form Cooler or SSJ Goku from M5? That's up to you to decide. Whatever placement you have for Pre Rosat Base Goku just multiply it by 20x and if he ends up being stronger than any of those characters, it's alright, if he ends up weaker, it's alright too as his strength has no impact into the story, for all I can tell the Base/Kaioken Goku vs Metal Cooler is just there to dramatize the transformation of the SSJ as even Metal Cooler consider that it was unworthy until he transformed.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I say invisible Kaio-Ken. Not that Goku was using a invisible Kaio-Ken, but Cooler knew he had it. Freeza can’t even sense Ki but “sensed” that Goku was hiding 90% of his power too.

M5 Goku:
~ Base: 7,500,000
~ KKx20: 150,000,000
~ SSJ: 375,000,000

5th form Cooler: 250,000,000

For Movie 6, Goku using KK doesn’t mean anything. He’s just taking things slow before going FP.

 

[HunterR18]

Goku SSJ (Movie 5) > Cooler Final Form > Goku SSJ (Namek) > Freeza Final Form

Metal Cooler >= Android 17 or 18

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

M5 Goku:
~ Base: 7,500,000
~ KKx20: 150,000,000
~ SSJ: 375,000,000

5th form Cooler: 250,000,000

How would you integrate Namek Goku and Freeza on this?

 

[Animelover5487]

I think Yardrat Goku is stronger than M5 Goku as the former could at least go into Super Saiyan at will, so I am not really on board with either of these theories.

I will say Base or Kaioken Goku defeating Freeza is likely plausible in Cooler's mind since he knows Freeza never starts out his fights at full power and has limited control over it.

 

[Dagon]

I say invisible Kaio-Ken. Not that Goku was using a invisible Kaio-Ken, but Cooler knew he had it. Freeza can’t even sense Ki but “sensed” that Goku was hiding 90% of his power too.

M5 Goku:
~ Base: 7,500,000
~ KKx20: 150,000,000
~ SSJ: 375,000,000

5th form Cooler: 250,000,000

For Movie 6, Goku using KK doesn’t mean anything. He’s just taking things slow before going FP.

Kaio-Ken x20 was never shown to be invisible but x10 was. So you'd have to double your numbers really.

Freeza "judged" that Goku had more to show. Since he couldn't sense ki yet it has to be based on judging Goku's behavior in the fight.

 

[FeatsofPower]

How can only Super Saiyan make Cooler say, "Now I see why my brother was no match for you!" if Base Goku > Freeza. This statement would be redundant.

Also, Goku doesn't acknowledge Cooler's superiority until he transforms. Which is another sign pointing towards Base Goku > Freeza being impossible. If it's only Final Form Cooler who surpasses Freeza, how does it make sense for Goku to have already surpassed him?

Cooler and Base Goku are probably fighting at a level around Initial True Form Freeza's serious power. The No Hands level Freeza.

Remember, Cooler says nothing about Kkx10 Goku or Kkx20 Goku, neither of these power-ups made Cooler utter the phrase, "Now I see how you could have defeated Freeza."

So all in all, I think having Goku around his Yardrat self is probably what makes the most sense.

 

[Dagon]

L

How can only Super Saiyan make Cooler say, "Now I see why my brother was no match for you!" if Base Goku > Freeza. This statement would be redundant.

Also, Goku doesn't acknowledge Cooler's superiority until he transforms. Which is another sign pointing towards Base Goku > Freeza being impossible. If it's only Final Form Cooler who surpasses Freeza, how does it make sense for Goku to have already surpassed him?

Cooler and Base Goku are probably fighting at a level around Initial True Form Freeza's serious power. The No Hands level Freeza.

Remember, Cooler says nothing about Kkx10 Goku or Kkx20 Goku, neither of these power-ups made Cooler utter the phrase, "Now I see how you could have defeated Freeza."

So all in all, I think having Goku around his Yardrat self is probably what makes the most sense.

"Strong enough to have beaten my brother" just means strong enough that a victory for Goku is plausible. Upon seeing Super Saiyan it becomes apparent that that Freeza is "no match" for Goku. Base Goku or Kaio-Ken 10 Golu doesn't need to smoke Freeza, just be strong enough that a victory is believable.

If Goku did not surpass Freeza until showing Super Saiyan, then that's not strong enough to beat Freeza.

 

[FeatsofPower]

If Goku did not surpass Freeza until showing Super Saiyan, then that's not strong enough to beat Freeza.

We know Base Goku does not surpass Freeza

 

[Dagon]

We know Base Goku does not surpass Freeza

Not if movie 5 has anything to say about it.

Don't just state claims without proof.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Not if movie 5 has anything to say about it.

Don't just state claims without proof.

According to Movie 5. Goku is freaking when Cooler surpasses Freeza, there's no way Cooler is anywhere near Freeza's power based on that scene.

 

[Dagon]

According to Movie 5. Goku is freaking when Cooler surpasses Freeza, there's no way Cooler is anywhere near Freeza's power based on that scene.

It just means Cooler surpassed Freeza. I never said Cooler has to already be stronger than Freeza before 5th form. Base/Invisible Kaio-Ken x10 Goku was winning over base Cooler, so we can fairly say base Cooler is not beyond Freeza.

Trying to judge precise power gaps over how big a character's eyes get and how many sweat drops they have in reaction to a power-up is far too subjective a method of scaling.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It just means Cooler surpassed Freeza

Yeah it took a massive increase in his own power just to surpass Freeza. So Base Goku and Coolers previous level are most likely nowhere near Freeza’s power

 

[Dagon]

Yeah it took a massive increase in his own power just to surpass Freeza. So Base Goku and Coolers previous level are most likely nowhere near Freeza’s power

Why does it have to be the later portion of the power-up that surpasses Freeza rather than the earlier portion of the power-up?

Again if base Goku is so weak even to the point that Kaio-Ken x10 can't beat Freeza then Cooler admitting Goku can beat Freeza is a contradiction.

At the very least x10 Goku is strong enough to plausibly beat Freeza. Bare minimum base Goku movie 5 is around 12 million or more.

The whole point of the thread is to integrate movie scaling into the series but you're trying to oppress the movies into the series scaling. Just make your own thread if you disagree with the premise so thoroughly that you'd try to derail the entire point of it all.

 

[Pakl]

How can only Super Saiyan make Cooler say, "Now I see why my brother was no match for you!" if Base Goku > Freeza. This statement would be redundant.

Also, Goku doesn't acknowledge Cooler's superiority until he transforms. Which is another sign pointing towards Base Goku > Freeza being impossible. If it's only Final Form Cooler who surpasses Freeza, how does it make sense for Goku to have already surpassed him?

Cooler and Base Goku are probably fighting at a level around Initial True Form Freeza's serious power. The No Hands level Freeza.

Remember, Cooler says nothing about Kkx10 Goku or Kkx20 Goku, neither of these power-ups made Cooler utter the phrase, "Now I see how you could have defeated Freeza."

So all in all, I think having Goku around his Yardrat self is probably what makes the most sense.

Hey. I see you have come back to discuss the movies. Why not discussing the comparisons I made? I would like to hear your opinion.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How would you integrate Namek Goku and Freeza on this?

This is following the Daizenshuu numbers for simplicity.

 

[Pakl]

Base Goku > Freeza makes no sense anyway. SSjin was just a revealed at that point. It makes zero sense that Base Goku is suddenly his Freeza Arc SSjin level, because that alone would destroy the entire point and enthusiasm of the SSjin that was just shown in the series. Not to mention several points contradict this line of Coola before and after the fight.

 

[Dagon]

It's the same logic as M10 SSJ Broly = M8 LSSJ Broly as Gohan said "he's as bad a monster as ever" which is contradictory if M10 SSJ Broly was weaker than M8 LSSJ Broly as he would not be "as bad."

Goku quite quickly surpassed his prior Kaio-Ken levels with his base power in the Namek and Freeza sagas. Power leap-frogging is known to occur.

"Namek base Goku surpassing Kaio-Ken x4 from the Vegeta saga devalues Kaio-Ken as a concept." Hmmmm....

 

[HunterR18]

Since it's for all films then I'll put:

Movie 1
Garlick Jr > Raditz (garlick became immortal)

Movie 2
DR.Wheelo > Vegeta (Saiyan Saga)

Spoiler: DrWheelo

Movie 3
Turles > Vegeta (Saiyan Saga)

Turles (Might Tree Fruit) over 300,000 Power Level

Movie 4
False Super Saiyan Goku > Slugg

Goku 100x Kaioken > Giant Slug > Goku SSJ (vs Freeza) > Freeza Final Form

Spoiler: Giant Slugg

Movie 5 and 6
Goku SSJ (Movie 5) > Cooler Final Form > Goku SSJ (Namek) > Freeza Final Form

Metal Cooler >= Android 17 or 18

Movie 7
Android 13 = Android 17

Super 13 ~ Android 16

Movie 8

Broly RSSJ = Perfect Cell (vs Trunks) or Trunks SSG3

Goku SSJ (Toei friendship power 1000x) > Broly LSSJ > Goku SSJ (Boo-Saga) or Broly SSJ (Movie 10) ~ or = Perfect Cell (Full Power) (Furthermore Broly movie 8 was only defeated by the power of the script and friendship described in scans)


Movie 9
Bojack Base > Super Saiyan power

Bojack Full Power less than Gohan SSJ2 (Movie 9) and Gohan SSJ2 (Cell-Games) and ~ or less than Full Power Perfect Cell


Movie 10

Broly LSSJ (Movie 8) >= Broly SSJ (Movie 10) > Goku SSJ (Boo-Saga)

Broly LSSJ (Movie 10 or Hell) > Goku SSJ2 Boo-Saga & Paikuhan (+ Villains in what was shown in Movie 12 and supposedly the same defeat of Broly DBH must have happened in Broly M10)

Broly LSSJ >>>> Gohan SSJ2 (Movie 10)

Broly is stronger than Family Kamehameha but loses because of Trunks and Friendship


Movie 11
Bio-Broly = Imperfect Cell

Giant Bio-Broly = Broly RSSJ (Movie 8)


Movie 12
Fat Janemba > Fat Boo

Super Janemba = Buutenks or something like that

Buuhan >= Super Janemba (Full Power)

Gogeta SSJ ???????????????????


Movie 13

Goku SSJ3 (Movie 13) = Goku SSJ3 (Movie 12)

Gotenks SSJ3 > Hiudegarn

Goku SSJ3 (Movie 13) > Super Hiudegarn > Gotenks SSJ3