One thing GT did better than Super

[Pocket-Gog~]

GT's fight scenes sucked, lol. Goku vs. Baby (1st fight) had terrible animation, the second fight was him getting knocked out of SSJ3 in like a minute after doing nothing and even the final fight after they went into their final forms ended with an episode with terrible animation (the one where Galu blasted off Baby's tail). The first Oob vs. Baby fight was Baby somehow deciding to play around with a guy weaker than the same Goku he stomped in a form far weaker than the one he entered after absorbing the Saiyans' and Earthlings' power, with possessed Gohan and co. being idiots that somehow assumed Baby was in danger (which is retarded considering Baby even said he didn't even need to use a RDB as big as the one he tried to kill base Goku with against Oob, and makes him look weaker than he should). Majin/Super Oob vs. Baby was better, but it was 90% just a big Ki blast struggle and no real meat to it. None of the other fight scenes you named are good, except maybe that one episode where Galu succeeded in blasting Super Yi to pieces with his Dragon Fist, but then the Gogeta episode was 90% Gogeta just fooling around and even the Big Bang Kamehameha looked pitifully weak compared to Gohan's Father-Son Kamehameha or SSJ3 Galu's Kamehameha in Z episode 280. I don't think the "it's a smaller series" excuse holds up by then either since by the time of Baby arriving on Earth, GT had shifted into the planetary/universal scale superpower battle theme from DBZ (to the point the final GT battle went almost exactly like the battle against Boo).

The whole reason I'm even delegating time to writing a GT fanfiction every weekend is because there's so much room for improvement even though there were several good concepts like a return to the worldly/intergalactic adventure theme we saw in pre-Piccolo Daimao DB or in Freeza arc filler, Evil Dragons and so on (none of which were handled well).

Granted, most of the fight scenes from the first 3 or so arcs of Super (except the rare exceptions like Goku vs. Hit) are even worse than GT's fights, but two wrongs don't make a right. I definitely agree GT had better character writing and less plot holes (even though there were a lot), though.

The Baby arc ironically enough has some of the iffiest looking moments on a more consistent basis. The art and animation for Uub V Baby is still as good/better than what Super has to offer, despite being an almost totally unimportant fight for a character who serves no purpose after it. Which was my point in the first place.

What the fuck are you talking about? Eis Shenron, Nuova Shenron and Omega Shenron are all great fights. Omega Shenron suffers more though because its such a long brawl that the quality of some episodes suffers pretty heavily. Super 17 is also such a good well animated fight that I find its a real gem in a shit arc.

And I don't care about your fan fic here. My whole point is that GTs fight scenes have better art and animation than what Super has to offer. Lmfao.

 

[Papasmurf]

I never said you had to care about my fanfiction, I was just saying I only took the time to try and fix GT's plethora of issues because I find it to be a shame that good concepts were wasted on abysmal execution.

Oob vs. Baby had good animation throughout, but the fight choreography itself was abysmal due to the second and more important one being mostly one big Ki beam struggle and the first one was Baby just fooling around for no reason and his followers being idiots that assumed he was in danger like they don't know how to sense that Oob's Ki should be nothing compared to Baby's unless the latter got drugged

Si Xing Long (Nuova)'s fight was trash before Goku went SSJ4 and even when they began to fight seriously, the mirror thing was retarded when Goku was transformed to his strongest form and should logically give off a Ki signature, plus when reflected on a mirror his hairline would be reversed which should be easy enough to notice for seasoned fighters. The ice one was OK, it just looked dumb because we literally had San/Eis literally counting how many seconds it took for Galu to beat him instead of doing something to try and turn the tide.

Syn/Omega/Yi/whatever's fight was basically what the whole arc had been building up to and it was still fraught with mediocre feats like a 10x Kamehameha not even blowing up an attraction at a theme park, the aforementioned clock retardation, and basically the whole fight after Goku and Vegeta defuse being pointless filler since nothing was accomplished (Yi returned to his complete 7-ball form, Goku and Vegeta went back to base when we could've just had Mr. Omega attack them seriously and get to that point in under 5 minutes). The only parts where the animation was truly good would be SSJ4 Galu vs. Super Yi (the episode with the Dragon Fist) and Episode 63. But even then, if the writing weren't being rushed because of GT's poor ratings near the end, it could've been handled in a much more tasteful way by having Vegeta regain his SSJ4 form at Capsule Corp. or something and Gohan also turning SSJ4 (since he was born with a tail), as well as Gotenks making an appearance. A battle royale between fighters of such a caliber is what I'd see rather than wasting entire episodes on Goku swallowing a Dragon Ball that just gets absorbed again, the two trying and failing to fuse instead of just teleporting somewhere and fusing back to Gogeta... it was dumb and a time waster. Nothing more to it.

Again, I do think Super's first 3 arcs had worse fights, although a few were still OK like Cabba vs. Vegeta and the Hit battles in general, although my point is that despite the fact that I definitely agree Super is worse as a series, almost every relevant fight in the ToP still makes GT's fight scenes look terrible and for whatever reason, most of GT's animation following the BSDB arc actually was worse even though it should've been getting better when the plot was taking a less episodic and more focused turn.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I never said you had to care about my fanfiction, I was just saying I only took the time to try and fix GT's plethora of issues because I find it to be a shame that good concepts were wasted on abysmal execution.

Oob vs. Baby had good animation throughout, but the fight choreography itself was abysmal due to the second and more important one being mostly one big Ki beam struggle and the first one was Baby just fooling around for no reason and his followers being idiots that assumed he was in danger like they don't know how to sense that Oob's Ki should be nothing compared to Baby's unless the latter got drugged

Si Xing Long (Nuova)'s fight was trash before Goku went SSJ4 and even when they began to fight seriously, the mirror thing was retarded when Goku was transformed to his strongest form and should logically give off a Ki signature, plus when reflected on a mirror his hairline would be reversed which should be easy enough to notice for seasoned fighters. The ice one was OK, it just looked dumb because we literally had San/Eis literally counting how many seconds it took for Galu to beat him instead of doing something to try and turn the tide.

Syn/Omega/Yi/whatever's fight was basically what the whole arc had been building up to and it was still fraught with mediocre feats like a 10x Kamehameha not even blowing up an attraction at a theme park, the aforementioned clock retardation, and basically the whole fight after Goku and Vegeta defuse being pointless filler since nothing was accomplished (Yi returned to his complete 7-ball form, Goku and Vegeta went back to base when we could've just had Mr. Omega attack them seriously and get to that point in under 5 minutes). The only parts where the animation was truly good would be SSJ4 Galu vs. Super Yi (the episode with the Dragon Fist) and Episode 63. But even then, if the writing weren't being rushed because of GT's poor ratings near the end, it could've been handled in a much more tasteful way by having Vegeta regain his SSJ4 form at Capsule Corp. or something and Gohan also turning SSJ4 (since he was born with a tail), as well as Gotenks making an appearance.

My entire argument entirely presides on the art and animation of all these fights. And comparing it to Super. Thats why I don't know why you're even bringing up the fan fic here, GT has big story problems, but this conversation doesn't concern itself with them.

The theme park and clock were bad? The theme park made the fight more visually interesting and dynamic. The clock helped to show Goku's skill as a fighter that even while blinded and unable to sense Ki - he could still react based off of smell and hearing. I don't get the inconsistencies with the explosion sizes, because Dragon Balls had that problem since the Namek saga and afterwards. (These fighters are all Solar System+++ by now).

To ask, what would be the point of having Gotenks show up? Goten and Trunks were totally irrelevant power wise, they tried to fuse against Baby and Goku straight up told them it was pointless. Why would that change? Same as Gohan? Isn't he totally weak, wouldn't SSJ4 be a waste of time with him?

 

[Papasmurf]

My entire argument entirely presides on the art and animation of all these fights. And comparing it to Super. Thats why I don't know why you're even bringing up the fan fic here, GT has big story problems, but this conversation doesn't concern itself with them.

I brought it up at the end of my post (it's an afterthought) saying I took issues with GT's storytelling and choreography problems, which I found to be a shame because they could have been utilized efficiently. It's not an attempt to shamelessly self-advertise (it's already in my sig), so I don't know why you're getting worked up over it.

The theme park and clock were bad? The theme park made the fight more visually interesting and dynamic. The clock helped to show Goku's skill as a fighter that even while blinded and unable to sense Ki - he could still react based off of smell and hearing. I don't get the inconsistencies with the explosion sizes, because Dragon Balls had that problem since the Namek saga and afterwards. (These fighters are all Solar System+++ by now).

The clock was shit because a metal clock that doesn't even have Ki infused in it should be something Goku could chew for breakfast, especially when his power was greater than Yi's by then. Take note of the fact that when Piccolo Daimao tried a similar thing with a rock, he did it when he was out of power (spammed two city busters), plus he used Tenshithands as a hostage to ensure that Galu couldn't move. This was totally different and took place years after the end of Z when the scale of battles should be logically far greater. Instead of the clock retardation, Yi should have just tricked Galu into knocking him straight into where Pan was holding the other Dragon Balls so he could transform. He also tried to kill Goku by dropping him into a pirate statue (read: something that wouldn't even greatly damage a plane) when Galu has shown by this point that he can stomp SPC and Freeza after they trained in Hell in base form. The manga had more impressive depiction of feats in the damn 23rd and Saiyan arcs (to the point that Toriyama admitted that he couldn't make fights more high-scale than Goku vs. Vegeta due to Vegeta already being able to blow up a planet, other than that solar system statement from Cell years later).

But GT honestly doesn't even have that excuse because Goku can teleport in SSJ4 form, and the Earth has been blown up twice before. They could've easily locked in on Ki in the afterlife or Redjic's Ki or something and had a much more destructive and high-scale battle than a conflict in a dinky city with few feats more impressive than lifting buildings, if they weren't gonna have more people go SSJ4.

To ask, what would be the point of having Gotenks show up? Goten and Trunks were totally irrelevant power wise, they tried to fuse against Baby and Goku straight up told them it was pointless. Why would that change? Same as Gohan? Isn't he totally weak, wouldn't SSJ4 be a waste of time with him?

Why wouldn't they fuse into Gotenks? That's like saying Goku's Kaioken was useless against Freeza, so he shouldn't have used it. When you're down a field goal, you need every advantage you can get. The only reason Goku turned down the idea of them fusing was because Gotenks wouldn't be stronger than Oozaru Baby and they can offer Saiya power without fusing. Here, Goku was already incapacitated, and Gotenks would serve as a far better distraction for two SSJ4s than his unfused halves. SSJ4 is dependent on potential and Gohan has more potential than his father, so there's no reason to not have him go SSJ4 if they can use the Bruits wave machine on him.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I brought it up at the end of my post (it's an afterthought) saying I took issues with GT's storytelling and choreography problems, which I found to be a shame because they could have been utilized efficiently. It's not an attempt to shamelessly self-advertise (it's already in my sig), so I don't know why you're getting worked up over it.


The clock was shit because a metal clock that doesn't even have Ki infused in it should be something Goku could chew for breakfast, especially when his power was greater than Yi's by then. Take note of the fact that when Piccolo Daimao tried a similar thing with a rock, he did it when he was out of power (spammed two city busters), plus he used Tenshithands as a hostage to ensure that Galu couldn't move. This was totally different and took place years after the end of Z when the scale of battles should be logically far greater. Instead of the clock retardation, Yi should have just tricked Galu into knocking him straight into where Pan was holding the other Dragon Balls so he could transform. He also tried to kill Goku by dropping him into a pirate statue (read: something that wouldn't even greatly damage a plane) when Galu has shown by this point that he can stomp SPC and Freeza after they trained in Hell in base form. The manga had more impressive depiction of feats in the damn 23rd and Saiyan arcs (to the point that Toriyama admitted that he couldn't make fights more high-scale than Goku vs. Vegeta due to Vegeta already being able to blow up a planet, other than that solar system statement from Cell years later).

But GT honestly doesn't even have that excuse because Goku can teleport in SSJ4 form, and the Earth has been blown up twice before. They could've easily locked in on Ki in the afterlife or Redjic's Ki or something and had a much more destructive and high-scale battle than a conflict in a dinky city with few feats more impressive than lifting buildings, if they weren't gonna have more people go SSJ4.


Why wouldn't they fuse into Gotenks? That's like saying Goku's Kaioken was useless against Freeza, so he shouldn't have used it. When you're down a field goal, you need every advantage you can get. The only reason Goku turned down the idea of them fusing was because Gotenks wouldn't be stronger than Oozaru Baby and they can offer Saiya power without fusing. Here, Goku was already incapacitated, and Gotenks would serve as a far better distraction for two SSJ4s than his unfused halves. SSJ4 is dependent on potential and Gohan has more potential than his father, so there's no reason to not have him go SSJ4 if they can use the Bruits wave machine on him.

I had the impression that the entire crux of the argument was predicated on discussing the animation/art quality of the battles. I was taken by surprise seeing you mention story telling problems, especially considering Super is far more egregious of the things that GT does. But I can now tell that you don't really care about the battles, or even comparing them to Super.

Would a shot gun have really killed Kid Goku after his battle with Roshi? Is Goku really incapable of picking up 40 tons by the Buu arc? Why does it take Goku a year to travel Snake Way (something as long as Earth) when he could do that when he was a kid? Why can Cell nearly kill Android 18 with a blast that can only destroy an island? The DB fighters are inconsistent. Even while under the pen of Toriyama, there is hardly a lick of logic with how powerful they actually are and what they can do. This problem is massively exasperated by Toei who barely give a shit about feats and what not. I also agree with you that for all intents and purposes, the visual escalation of the story peaked with the Saiyan and Freeza arc.

The series on a whole is obsessed with Earth - much to my chagrin. I flat out agree with you there, the shadow dragons should have taken place in space.

Like most things with GT the answer lies in the writers room. Gotenks is just so unbelievably weak by that point, his two selves never having trained a day in their life after the End of Z, that there was just no point showing him. All he would have done was job and lose, stretching out the story even more. Or maybe its because they just used Gogeta and didn't want to repeat fusion twice in the finale.

Is there any statement on SSJ4 being based on potential in the show itself? From what I remember the form seemed to just be another standard transformation - just the ultimate transformation.

 

[Papasmurf]

I had the impression that the entire crux of the argument was predicated on discussing the animation/art quality of the battles. I was taken by surprise seeing you mention story telling problems, especially considering Super is far more egregious of the things that GT does. But I can now tell that you don't really care about the battles, or even comparing them to Super.

storytelling ties into the battles because the writing quality and consistency present in battles drives both the story and the fights themselves, things DBGT is lacking in to a far greater extent than the things you complain about later in your post in the original manga:

Would a shot gun have really killed Kid Goku after his battle with Roshi? Is Goku really incapable of picking up 40 tons by the Buu arc? Why does it take Goku a year to travel Snake Way (something as long as Earth) when he could do that when he was a kid? Why can Cell nearly kill Android 18 with a blast that can only destroy an island? The DB fighters are inconsistent. Even while under the pen of Toriyama, there is hardly a lick of logic with how powerful they actually are and what they can do. This problem is massively exasperated by Toei who barely give a shit about feats and what not. I also agree with you that for all intents and purposes, the visual escalation of the story peaked with the Saiyan and Freeza arc.

The shotgun thing is consistent with Cell later stating that if the cyborgs were frozen via the stop remote, even the Z senshi who are far weaker than they could kill them. As well as the rock breaking Goku's limbs. Snake Road is stated to be a million kilometers which is far longer than the circumference of the Earth, and it took him 6 months and not a year (with weighted clothes on the whole time, not to mention he took sleeping breaks). The island buster's size is irrelevant, because Majin Vegeta's self-detonation wasn't even the size of a city, yet it blew Fat Boo to little chunks and would've definitely killed any other SSJ2 at the time. Intensity (density of the attack) is what is important, which is why Fat Boo's Kamehameha against SSJ3 Goku for example is far smaller than 23rd Goku's Super Kamehameha, yet is incomparably stronger. There are things you can use to explain the rhyme and reason in the manga (although as we both agree, the planet busting in the Saiyan arc really wasn't topped until Cell's solar system statement, which was never topped in pre-Super canon really). In GT... I see a lot of ray gun type scenes, and it's compounded by lackluster choreography and animation direction (not even Super does the Ki spam faggotry as much as GT), with certain exceptions like Oob vs. Goku in episode 1, Goku vs. Redjic early in the BSDB arc, some parts of SSJ4 Galu vs. Baby and SSJ4 Galu vs. Yi Xing Long, and finally the fight between Goku and Vegeta's descendants in the end of GT.

Unfortunately, those are the only fights with comparably good action to DBZ, and they're still nowhere near as great as certain DB fights that come to mind such as Goku vs. Tenshinhan, Goku vs. Piccolo Daimao, Goku vs. Vegeta, Z Senshi vs. Ginyu Force, Vegeta/Trunks vs. Cell, Goku vs. Cell, Gohan vs. Cell and many fights in the Boo arc. Super sucks and I agree it's a worse product than even GT, but nothing even in DB/Z can touch MUI Galu vs. Jiren in animation quality, as well as several other Shida-animated episodes. If I turned off my brain and just analyzed which Fusion battle has better framerate, better choreography etc., Vegetto vs. Zamasu is incomparably better than Gogeta vs. Omega Shitlord.

The series on a whole is obsessed with Earth - much to my chagrin. I flat out agree with you there, the shadow dragons should have taken place in space.

Like most things with GT the answer lies in the writers room. Gotenks is just so unbelievably weak by that point, his two selves never having trained a day in their life after the End of Z, that there was just no point showing him. All he would have done was job and lose, stretching out the story even more. Or maybe its because they just used Gogeta and didn't want to repeat fusion twice in the finale.

Is there any statement on SSJ4 being based on potential in the show itself? From what I remember the form seemed to just be another standard transformation - just the ultimate transformation.

When Goku went Golden Oozaru, it was stated that his potential had finally been unleashed. Golden Oozaru with control is SSJ4. Plus, it was already established that SSJ Goku >>> SSJ Vegeta in the previous arc, yet SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta were equals, meaning base form strength is not linear to SSJ4 strength. And Trunks got stronger throughout the first two arcs of GT and Goten seems to be up to par with him judging by them wanting to fuse against Baby and their comparable performance against Super #17. Not to mention the argument that they are weaklings would apply just as much in the Boo arc seeing as they'd be taken down easily by Cell much less any form of Boo, yet fused as Gotenks only people like Ultimate Gohan and Vegetto were stronger (without absorptions and such). Not wanting to repeat fusion is a dumb argument considering Toei's reused villains getting blasted to the sun when they die twice after Coola, plus they had no problems using Gotenks repeatedly in Super and in movies 12 and 13. If I had to guess, they seemingly just didn't want to design Gotenks' adult appearance, since there's no intelligent argument for why they didn't fuse against initial Super #17 who wasn't even greatly stronger than SSJ1 Goku.

 

[Six Trails]

When I used to debate this more seriously there seemed to be a lot of Super apologists. Is GT > Super a more popular opinion ("opinion") now?

 

[SSJ2]

Around here maybe. In general, definitely not.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

When I used to debate this more seriously there seemed to be a lot of Super apologists. Is GT > Super a more popular opinion ("opinion") now?

It's definitely become more popular as people have become more clear on just how low the bar fell with Super's flaws as each new arc progressed (eg. practically everyone from the casual viewer to the critical thinker despising the ending of the Future Trunks Arc), as well as people being more willing to do a double-take on certain aspects of GT when viewing Super as a comparison.
It still isn't the default stance in the fanbase as a whole (because the consoooom product + herd mentality mindset combo is one hell of a blinding effect), but it's definitely far less one-sided than when the FT Arc was airing.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Super > GT, get over it!

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Unfortunately, those are the only fights with comparably good action to DBZ, and they're still nowhere near as great as certain DB fights that come to mind such as Goku vs. Tenshinhan, Goku vs. Piccolo Daimao, Goku vs. Vegeta, Z Senshi vs. Ginyu Force, Vegeta/Trunks vs. Cell, Goku vs. Cell, Gohan vs. Cell and many fights in the Boo arc. Super sucks and I agree it's a worse product than even GT, but nothing even in DB/Z can touch MUI Galu vs. Jiren in animation quality, as well as several other Shida-animated episodes. If I turned off my brain and just analyzed which Fusion battle has better framerate, better choreography etc., Vegetto vs. Zamasu is incomparably better than Gogeta vs. Omega Shitlord.

MUI Goku V Jiren is literally just reused animation, massive auras that obscure and make the battles harder to see, panning out and showing a bunch of smears so they can give the impression of a brawl. But never having to animate it. And to be completely blunt Supers art quality at its best is only ever comparable to GT. Because whenever Super, or the post GT products have exceptional looking art it is only ever aping the style of the earlier series.

 

[Papasmurf]

MUI Goku V Jiren is literally just reused animation, massive auras that obscure and make the battles harder to see, panning out and showing a bunch of smears so they can give the impression of a brawl. But never having to animate it. And to be completely blunt Supers art quality at its best is only ever comparable to GT. Because whenever Super, or the post GT products have exceptional looking art it is only ever aping the style of the earlier series.

MUI Galu vs. Jiren didn't reuse any animation. UI Sign Galu vs. Jiren did, and it was still a lot more fluid and had higher framerate than any GT fight. Ofc you also need to take into account that Super started almost 20 years after GT, but even for its time GT's fight scenes were usually terrible. I can name the really good ones and count them with one hand, and it's a series as long as FMA Brotherhood.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

MUI Galu vs. Jiren didn't reuse any animation. UI Sign Galu vs. Jiren did, and it was still a lot more fluid and had higher framerate than any GT fight. Ofc you also need to take into account that Super started almost 20 years after GT, but even for its time GT's fight scenes were usually terrible. I can name the really good ones and count them with one hand, and it's a series as long as FMA Brotherhood.

MUI Goku V Jiren blatantly did reuse scenes from UI Goku V Jiren. It also did use animation saving techniques like not focusing on the battle, using the smears to show massive brawl rushes. Cut away from the fighting to show reactions. Honestly I don't know why you're using MUI Goku V Jiren as the example of the best fight ever (which it isn't even in its own series) when the final brawl between 17, Goku and Freeza not only has better art and animation, but also doesn't waste its time with bullshit time saving animation techniques.

 

[Papasmurf]

Because MUI Galu vs. Jiren took the entire episode and was essentially the final fight. The rematch with #17 and Freeza joining in afterwards was more like an afterthought, and didn't even last half the episode due to ep. 131 concluding both the ToP and the post-ToP wrap up.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Because MUI Galu vs. Jiren took the entire episode and was essentially the final fight. The rematch with #17 and Freeza joining in afterwards was more like an afterthought, and didn't even last half the episode due to ep. 131 concluding both the ToP and the post-ToP wrap up.

Which is probably why Goku V Jiren is by far the inferior fight overall. Syn Shenron V Galu is far and above better than it, in terms of setting, feeling of power, art and animation. Everything except the flashy looking aura that in all honesty is the reason why people are awed by Supers standard fights.

 

[Papasmurf]

Which is probably why Goku V Jiren is by far the inferior fight overall. Syn Shenron V Galu is far and above better than it, in terms of setting, feeling of power, art and animation. Everything except the flashy looking aura that in all honesty is the reason why people are awed by Supers standard fights.

"Syn" vs. Goku was mostly shit. The entire episode where the infamous clock throwing scene was from was worse than any episode centering around Goku fighting Jiren in animation, choreography and even general logic other than Goku having limitless stamina for plot reasons in the Jiren fight. The animation improved immediately after Syn entered his complete state, but the entire Gogeta fight was one big joke and the two episodes immediately succeeding it were either dragged out (the first one of the two where they spent the whole episode failing to re-fuse), or just had terrible animation (the one where Si/Nuova came back).

Honestly it sounds like you view GT's final fight with rose tinted glasses because you prefer GT over Super. The first Goku vs. Jiren TV special, Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla, and basically any episode afterwards where UI/MUI Galu fought Jiren had animation leagues above any fight in GT. It's just that Super is such a contentious topic that people who prefer GT underrate those fights imo, especially when even UI Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla had more strategy to it than the absolute bullshit finale to Yi vs. Goku (Goku becomes an immortal spirit that can literally tank any attack in base and the universe in its entirety somehow decides to donate all their energy when Goku made friends with only a handful of alien planets' residents in the first arc).

Now, I prefer GT over Super too (unless it's the Super 17 arc), but I have to give credit where credit is due. Virtually any fight in the ToP after Kale attacked Goku the first time had animation that made GT's fights mostly look like shit, other than the rare exceptions such as Goku Jr. vs. Vegeta Jr. and Goku vs. Oob in the first episode.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

"Syn" vs. Goku was mostly shit. The entire episode where the infamous clock throwing scene was from was worse than any episode centering around Goku fighting Jiren in animation, choreography and even general logic other than Goku having limitless stamina for plot reasons in the Jiren fight. The animation improved immediately after Syn entered his complete state, but the entire Gogeta fight was one big joke and the two episodes immediately succeeding it were either dragged out (the first one of the two where they spent the whole episode failing to re-fuse), or just had terrible animation (the one where Si/Nuova came back).

Honestly it sounds like you view GT's final fight with rose tinted glasses because you prefer GT over Super. The first Goku vs. Jiren TV special, Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla, and basically any episode afterwards where UI/MUI Galu fought Jiren had animation leagues above any fight in GT. It's just that Super is such a contentious topic that people who prefer GT underrate those fights imo, especially when even UI Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla had more strategy to it than the absolute bullshit finale to Yi vs. Goku (Goku becomes an immortal spirit that can literally tank any attack in base and the universe in its entirety somehow decides to donate all their energy when Goku made friends with only a handful of alien planets' residents in the first arc).

Now, I prefer GT over Super too (unless it's the Super 17 arc), but I have to give credit where credit is due. Virtually any fight in the ToP after Kale attacked Goku the first time had animation that made GT's fights mostly look like shit, other than the rare exceptions such as Goku Jr. vs. Vegeta Jr. and Goku vs. Oob in the first episode.

You're ignoring the first episode of Syn Vs Goku which involved massive battling. Beautiful art. Collapsing sky scrapers, changing locations. The whole overall battle of Syn V Goku is a mixed bag because some episodes had to be sacrificed in order for other (more important ones) to look amazing. Which is what I'm comparing against Supers generally lacklustre Ultra Instinct fights, which are all massively overrated by the fandom.

Like Galu V Kefla which straight up was just nothing more than a gratitious beam struggle with only one single good looking moment (the sliding kamehameha). Ironically enough you did criticise GTs fights for the exact same reasons. The second Jiren V Goku fight which was more filler than anything else and really solidified the fact that the ultra instinct fights kept on reusing animation and time saving techniques.

If anything I'd argue that Super has the advantage of being looked at with rose tinted glasses, people remember the massive hype, people celebrate the return of Dragon Ball. People remember the awesome music, everything. When I first started Super everyone told me that the jazzy music would disappear and the art and animation would get better. But the more I sat through Super the more I realised that so much shit in the show had been memory holed by the general fandom. The jazzy music was a staple until the end. The animation and art only improved for the ToP (and with massive caveats). And the people who said the show got massively better had to begrudgingly admit that they forgot how bad the show actually looked.

 

[Papasmurf]

You're ignoring the first episode of Syn Vs Goku which involved massive battling. Beautiful art. Collapsing sky scrapers, changing locations. The whole overall battle of Syn V Goku is a mixed bag because some episodes had to be sacrificed in order for other (more important ones) to look amazing. Which is what I'm comparing against Supers generally lacklustre Ultra Instinct fights, which are all massively overrated by the fandom.

The first episode where Syn appeared didn't even have Syn battling Goku for a third of the episode. Goku fought the ice guy first and it was just a onesided stomp with the only surprise being a blinding attack. And Goku vs. Kid Boo which is basically Z's equivalent to the final fight in GT had animation and direction massively above that part of GT. It isn't much of an excuse. Goku vs. Piccolo Jr. also had more consistent animation and that shit was from the late 80's.

Like Galu V Kefla which straight up was just nothing more than a gratitious beam struggle with only one single good looking moment (the sliding kamehameha). Ironically enough you did criticise GTs fights for the exact same reasons. The second Jiren V Goku fight which was more filler than anything else and really solidified the fact that the ultra instinct fights kept on reusing animation and time saving techniques.

GT's fights spammed ki attacks without any sort of meat or camera angling to it. Kefla's Ki spamming was at least different from the usual Ki blast spam because they were laser blades, and Goku had the handicap of not being able to fly while avoiding the attacks. It was also enhanced by the Ultimate Fight theme which is one of the greatest BGM songs in the DB franchise (even if Super's score is mostly shit otherwise). Most GT fights didn't have any of these saving graces by comparison.

If anything I'd argue that Super has the advantage of being looked at with rose tinted glasses, people remember the massive hype, people celebrate the return of Dragon Ball. People remember the awesome music, everything. When I first started Super everyone told me that the jazzy music would disappear and the art and animation would get better. But the more I sat through Super the more I realised that so much shit in the show had been memory holed by the general fandom. The jazzy music was a staple until the end. The animation and art only improved for the ToP (and with massive caveats). And the people who said the show got massively better had to begrudgingly admit that they forgot how bad the show actually looked.

I was never hyped about Super lol, in fact Episode 5 and the BoG arc being an inferior, dragged out retelling of the original soured me on it. In the FnF arc I even skipped most of the Goku and Vegeta training montages and skipped basically all of Goku vs. Freeza because it was already cringe enough in the movie where it was far better animated. I have no love for Super, I just don't see any GT fights that look as crisp or well choreographed (read: this is different than being well written) as Vegetto vs. Zamasu and multiple ToP fights.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Gotta admit that Goku Vs Syn was great to watch just for the brutality alone but I stopped liking it once Goku absorbed those SSjin powers and proceed to destroy Syn.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

The first episode where Syn appeared didn't even have Syn battling Goku for a third of the episode. Goku fought the ice guy first and it was just a onesided stomp with the only surprise being a blinding attack. And Goku vs. Kid Boo which is basically Z's equivalent to the final fight in GT had animation and direction massively above that part of GT. It isn't much of an excuse. Goku vs. Piccolo Jr. also had more consistent animation and that shit was from the late 80's.

You're right, Eis Shenron V Goku is also a much better fight than Mastered Ultra instinct Goku. Syn Shenron V Goku is just icing on the cake of an excellently well animated episode.

GT's fights spammed ki attacks without any sort of meat or camera angling to it. Kefla's Ki spamming was at least different from the usual Ki blast spam because they were laser blades, and Goku had the handicap of not being able to fly while avoiding the attacks. It was also enhanced by the Ultimate Fight theme which is one of the greatest BGM songs in the DB franchise (even if Super's score is mostly shit otherwise). Most GT fights didn't have any of these saving graces by comparison.

You're right there, Kefla's Ki spamming was far more gratuitous than anything seen in GT. Considering the fight was nothing more than Goku and Kefla throwing massive Ki blasts at them. The flying handicap in the ToP is also a load of bull in the animated version, considering Goku and Jiren straight up fly while fighting. And Ultimate Fight is constantly reused for all the Ultra Instinct fights, which is another reasons to criticize them.

I was never hyped about Super lol, in fact Episode 5 and the BoG arc being an inferior, dragged out retelling of the original soured me on it. In the FnF arc I even skipped most of the Goku and Vegeta training montages and skipped basically all of Goku vs. Freeza because it was already cringe enough in the movie where it was far better animated. I have no love for Super, I just don't see any GT fights that look as crisp or well choreographed (read: this is different than being well written) as Vegetto vs. Zamasu and multiple ToP fights.

I'm not referring to you, but on a few discord servers I'm on, it was the general sentiment I encountered. I just find that whenever people talk about Super they tend to just isolate a few select cool moments, while ignoring the overall whole.