Piccolo (Current) vs #17 (Current)

[GSM123]

Thanks to his 2 months training with Gohan, has Piccolo closed the gap between himself and #17? Discuss.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Piccolo ought to stomp as things are now. He wasn't suggested to be lagging behind Gohan much (if at all) when using teamwork against Saganbo and did significantly better than #17's contribution to the fight. Gohan in turn should be far above the PSSBs from tying with Kefla, who would be stronger than Kale who was already on PSSB tier and should be stronger than the initial Jiren who tooled PSSB Goku and Hit if Vados' statement about Kefla having the most chance of winning is to be taken as fact. By comparison, #17 is at best on the lower end of PSSB tier from being stated to be almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta as well as his durability feats being comparable to Golden Freeza's when both were being tooled by Jiren with the same level of effort on his part.

 

[Animelover5487]

Piccolo ought to stomp as things are now. He wasn't suggested to be lagging behind Gohan much (if at all) when using teamwork against Saganbo and did significantly better than #17's contribution to the fight. Gohan in turn should be far above the PSSBs from tying with Kefla, who would be stronger than Kale who was already on PSSB tier and should be stronger than the initial Jiren who tooled PSSB Goku and Hit if Vados' statement about Kefla having the most chance of winning is to be taken as fact. By comparison, #17 is at best on the lower end of PSSB tier from being stated to be almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta as well as his durability feats being comparable to Golden Freeza's when both were being tooled by Jiren with the same level of effort on his part.

17 was not necessarily stated to be almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta, all Goku said was that it was incredible that he kept up with the rest of them which is a pretty vague statement that could be taken in anyway, I mean he's on a team of 10 fighters and he's stronger than 5 of them which could be interpreted as "keeping" up, Goku had UI and even if he wasn't thinking about that since he can't use at will he still has Kaioken, and Vegeta has Evolution.


I haven't seen that part of the Moro fight but I can't buy Piccolo going from below SSJ tier to PSSJB tier in 2 months. Maybe Piccolo was able to provide such good teamwork because him and Gohan have been sparring partners for so long they can coordinate their attacks beyond their normal limits.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

17 was not necessarily stated to be almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta, all Goku said was that it was incredible that he kept up with the rest of them which is a pretty vague statement that could be taken in anyway,

Saying someone is "Just about as strong as us" when the only other person next to you is Vegeta is far from vague.

Goku had UI and even if he wasn't thinking about that since he can't use at will he still has Kaioken, and Vegeta has Evolution.

UI isn't something he can freely access, nor is pseudo-Kaioken something he can use practically, and Goku had yet to see if Vegeta could freely access SSBE until the battle with Moro. Moreover, #17's feats alone show him as having similar durability to Golden Freeza, and there was no reason for Jiren to pull his punches against #17 when he wanted to win ASAP and Jiren himself refuted that line of thought.

I haven't seen that part of the Moro fight but I can't buy Piccolo going from below SSJ tier to PSSJB tier in 2 months.

Super constantly boosts people to ridiculous heights without any reason such as #17, so there's no reason to believe any power up in a limited time would be too much at this point.

Maybe Piccolo was able to provide such good teamwork because him and Gohan have been sparring partners for so long they can coordinate their attacks beyond their normal limits.

That still wouldn't be an adequate excuse in providing him the speed to physically keep up with him.

 

[Future Warrior]

Piccolo has certainly gotten several levels stronger than before, but I'm not sure about him reaching the level of SSJ Blue. I think about SSJ3 tier is fine.

#17 is most certainly close to SSJ Blue though (by doing absolutely nothing, from the words of Goku and #17 himself might I add). I might have to re-read the chapters where they both fight Moro, but my gut tells me #17 handily takes this.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] #17 fought Dyspo to a stalemate though. If he really were PSSJB level, he would be on Toppo’s level, not Dyspo’s.

Besides, his ToP level isn’t really that relevant. Seeing how much he powered up by doing nothing, I find it hard to believe he’d stay on the same level for two months.

 

[Future Warrior]

I wonder if Gero somehow messed up during the creation of #17 that made his infinite energy reactor make him increase in power as time goes on

 

[Captain Cadaver]

#17 fought Dyspo to a stalemate though. If he really were PSSJB level, he would be on Toppo’s level, not Dyspo’s.

And he beat Dyspo without any difficulty. I wouldn't say some slight superficial damage only noticeable in one panel from their offscreen fight would be more indicative than #17's feats against Jiren, not to mention this would be more indicative of Dyspo's power than #17's.

Seeing how much he powered up by doing nothing, I find it hard to believe he’d stay on the same level for two months.

Perhaps, but we don't have any sort feat of statement citing him as becoming stronger, at least not by a significant extent. 2 months is also a very minimal timeframe compared to over a dozen years.

 

[Animelover5487]

I wonder if Gero somehow messed up during the creation of #17 that made his infinite energy reactor make him increase in power as time goes on

I know, right? This is such awful writing, if 17 had that kind of potential than what did Gero need Cell for?

 

[GSM123]

#17 fought Dyspo to a stalemate though. If he really were PSSJB level, he would be on Toppo’s level, not Dyspo’s.

And he beat Dyspo without any difficulty. I wouldn't say some slight superficial damage only noticeable in one panel from their offscreen fight would be more indicative than #17's feats against Jiren, not to mention this would be more indicative of Dyspo's power than #17's.

Seeing how much he powered up by doing nothing, I find it hard to believe he’d stay on the same level for two months.

Perhaps, but we don't have any sort feat of statement citing him as becoming stronger, at least not by a significant extent. 2 months is also a very minimal timeframe compared to over a dozen years.

Dyspo dropped the fight to go save Toppo. The result was inconclusive. Blocking a stronger punch isn’t that much of a feat anyway, as shown when Kami saved Goku from Piccolo’s punch back at the Budokai.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Dyspo dropped the fight to go save Toppo. The result was inconclusive.

Dyspo went from being someone at the very least on SS2 Goku's level and most likely far above that to being overpowered by a Freeza weaker than SSJ Caulifla despite the timeframe of the ToP meaning his fight with #17 could've only lasted a few seconds. Doesn't sound like anywhere near a close fight to me if one side can drain the other that much in barely any time.

Blocking a stronger punch isn’t that much of a feat anyway, as shown when Kami saved Goku from Piccolo’s punch back at the Budokai.

Piccolo wasn't anticipating Kami's intervention though and that's all he was capable of when he couldn't even follow a far weaker Galu and Piccolo's movements. Meanwhile, #17 not only blocked that punch in a similar fashion, but endured being knocked away by a punch from Jiren that had the same force to knock back Golden Freeza. #17 even seemed to endure it better than Freeza did.

Spoiler

I wonder if Gero somehow messed up during the creation of #17 that made his infinite energy reactor make him increase in power as time goes on

I know, right? This is such awful writing, if 17 had that kind of potential than what did Gero need Cell for?

Ironically, this is the fundamentally flawed premise GT's Super #17 Arc was founded on .

 

[GSM123]

Dyspo went from being someone at the very least on SS2 Goku's level and most likely far above that to being overpowered by a Freeza weaker than SSJ Caulifla despite the timeframe of the ToP meaning his fight with #17 could've only lasted a few seconds. Doesn't sound like anywhere near a close fight to me if one side can drain the other that much in barely any time.

Well since the tournament was nearing it's end it's possible Dyspo went all out to try to take #17 down all wasted all his stamina. He'd probably still be weaker than #17 to not speedblitz him though. How strong you think Dyspo is at full power? What about his speed? He's not faster than Toppo is he?

Either way I suppose confirming #17 = PSSJB Goku kinda works as the final nail in the coffin for Gohan > Goku, since Piccolo says Gohan is the strongest fighter left on Earth.

---

Back on topic, I checked the manga and I'm thinking #17 should take this. Piccolo needed Gohan to keep up with 7-3, while #17 basically solo'd him (Unless #18 helped him off screen. She couldn't have spent all this time fighting the small guy who struggled with Jaco, could he?).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well since the tournament was nearing it's end it's possible Dyspo went all out to try to take #17 down all wasted all his stamina.

Really big stretch without anything backing it up there. It'd be very inconsistent for Dyspo to suddenly burn through all his stamina to do something to #17 when even stamina draining skills such as Pseudo-Kaioken and SS3 don't drain Ki by such a great amount and rate, not to mention such an important detail wouldn't be treat as some offscreen affair.

How strong you think Dyspo is at full power?

All we can say for certain is he's significantly above SS2 Goku, yet still a complete non-threat to PSSB Goku. #17 seeming to have had his clothes made dusty isn't really an indicator of anything when the durability of clothing is never a consistent thing unless specified, so he'd also be far below #17 as well.

What about his speed? He's not faster than Toppo is he?

Manga Dyspo's speed is never treat as being more impressive than his power in the manga, so no.

Back on topic, I checked the manga and I'm thinking #17 should take this. Piccolo needed Gohan to keep up with 7-3, while #17 basically solo'd him (Unless #18 helped him off screen. She couldn't have spent all this time fighting the small guy who struggled with Jaco, could he?).

73's power changes to that of who's skills he was using rather than having them stack or anything, and he switched to Moro's powers after Gohan and Piccolo's team attack almost killed him and wasn't suggested to have switched back during his fight with #17. All this really does is hammer in the idea of #17 being PSSB tier when the Moro who's abilities he copied wasn't far weaker than PSSB Goku/Vegeta. There could be a case that Piccolo's high-end placement here is still below ToP Gohan due to having copied the abilities of Gohan from 2 months prior, though that seemed to have been ignored in place of just being equal to Gohan in general when considering the latter was later confirmed to be vastly above his ToP self and still couldn't stomp 73 without Piccolo's help.

 

[GSM123]

There could be a case that Piccolo's high-end placement here is still below ToP Gohan due to having copied the abilities of Gohan from 2 months prior, though that seemed to have been ignored in place of just being equal to Gohan in general when considering the latter was later confirmed to be vastly above his ToP self and still couldn't stomp 73 without Piccolo's help.

73 had to copy Piccolo and Gohan's abilities 2 months later though. He wasn't fighting them with their borrowed ToP powers anymore.

 

[Pyro]

Didn't 17 tie with SSJ3 Goku?

 

[GSM123]

Didn't 17 tie with SSJ3 Goku?

It was just a quick spar that ended with Goku blasting #17 to not blast him. And it's not Piccolo got any feats that place him on SSJ3 level either.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

73 had to copy Piccolo and Gohan's abilities 2 months later though. He wasn't fighting them with their borrowed ToP powers anymore.

Then that just strengthens the position of Piccolo's power being more impressive than given credit for.

Didn't 17 tie with SSJ3 Goku?

#17 barely seemed to be taking the fight seriously and Goku got pretty frantic at him trying to launch a Ki blast with him. Hardly an even fight.

 

[Animelover5487]

Does current 18 rival 17? I haven't seen the chapter but hearing something about Moro saying that they are both powerful and people saying it implies that they are on the same level.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Seems to be based on how equally matched their teamwork was.

 

[Pyro]

73 had to copy Piccolo and Gohan's abilities 2 months later though. He wasn't fighting them with their borrowed ToP powers anymore.

Then that just strengthens the position of Piccolo's power being more impressive than given credit for.

Didn't 17 tie with SSJ3 Goku?

#17 barely seemed to be taking the fight seriously and Goku got pretty frantic at him trying to launch a Ki blast with him. Hardly an even fight.

Gotta disagree with you completely on it being "hardly an even fight." After Goku went SSJ3, they sparred evenly for a couple panels (both clearly gritting their teeth and being serious) before 17 managed to kick Goku toward the forest, which Goku smiled and IT'd to recover from. Then when Goku had his guard down to try and talk to 17, 17 blasted him with a kiai that Goku was unharmed from (and still was quick enough to put up a block). That's when 17 opted for the huge ki ball that Goku got frantic about, but considering we'd seen Goku opt not to stop something similar from Pure Boo, I don't see how it has to be taken to mean 17 is much stronger. At face value, that would mean 17 > CSSJB Goku, and I definitely don't see that holding up.