Piccolo vs 19 Post
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Considering the huge implied gap between 19 post and Vegeta, i say Piccolo.
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How big is this huge gap supposed to be? Nothing radically different than what gap Super Saiyan 2 Gohan had on Perfect Cell...
Vegeta wrecks 19, but it didn't look like anything more than a 1.5x gap to me.
Why would Piccolo's power, stated to be nothing by Piccolo himself and Vegeta's clearly weak blast, make 20 surpass 19? 19 absorbed a legitimate Kamehameha by a Super Saiyan, that's easily much more powerful than what 20 absorbed. It's a no contest imo.
Also, let's not forget that Piccolo did absolutely nothing while Goku was getting his ass kicked. He resorted to faking his death to try to save Goku instead of showing his true power and destroying 19. This speaks volumes of Piccolo's power in comparison to Sick Goku and 19. Goku knows how powerful Piccolo is, you don't think Goku would have let Piccolo handle it once things looked real bad? No, Goku didn't, because Piccolo wouldn't have been able to do a god damn thing to 19 Post.
Vegeta wrecks 19, but it didn't look like anything more than a 1.5x gap to me.
Why would Piccolo's power, stated to be nothing by Piccolo himself and Vegeta's clearly weak blast, make 20 surpass 19? 19 absorbed a legitimate Kamehameha by a Super Saiyan, that's easily much more powerful than what 20 absorbed. It's a no contest imo.
Also, let's not forget that Piccolo did absolutely nothing while Goku was getting his ass kicked. He resorted to faking his death to try to save Goku instead of showing his true power and destroying 19. This speaks volumes of Piccolo's power in comparison to Sick Goku and 19. Goku knows how powerful Piccolo is, you don't think Goku would have let Piccolo handle it once things looked real bad? No, Goku didn't, because Piccolo wouldn't have been able to do a god damn thing to 19 Post.
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About the fake death thing, I think he was waiting to see wtf interfered with him before taking action again. I'm not sure it was because he wouldn't have been help. H would have effectively been against both 20 and 19 at the same time, too, so that wouldn't be easy to win.
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I think Piccolo slaughters here.
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p123 said:
You think so? I'm not so sure. Piccolo didn't really know 20's true strength yet as he only got hit by that weak eye beam. From Piccolo's perspective, he probably thought 20 could be a lot stronger than 19 due to 19 taking orders, so it would be risky to take on both at once.
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Vegeta would never, ever use this strategy.
There is a reason why Piccolo never offers to jump in for Goku. He simply wouldn't have been able to do any better than Goku was doing. Why let Goku get his ass whooped while the strongest fighter in the group is lying on his ass like a bitch. From a story narrative, it just doesn't make sense.
There is a reason why Piccolo never offers to jump in for Goku. He simply wouldn't have been able to do any better than Goku was doing. Why let Goku get his ass whooped while the strongest fighter in the group is lying on his ass like a bitch. From a story narrative, it just doesn't make sense.
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p123 said:
Nineteen absorbed a lot of energy from Vegeta, meaning Vegeta became a lot weaker and Nineteen became a lot stronger
at the same time. Yet, Vegeta still had enough an advantage to cut off its arms. That's why the initial gap must be enormous.
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20 post was faster than 19 post though.
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Unless Vegeta's Big Bang Attack completely drained him, there's no way Vegeta is massively more superior to 19 Post after he gets drained. That sequence doesn't even make sense at all honestly.
Vegeta being weaker than Gero, just doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, what a foolish, foolish idea by Vegeta. Shows how weak Toriyama's view on battle is. Vegeta giving up his power advantage just to confirm what was already shown and put himself at risk is ridiculous. The bluff was ballsy, but he had no choice, he should have just beaten 19 to a scrap heap with his fists, he was well on his way there beforehand.
Vegeta being weaker than Gero, just doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, what a foolish, foolish idea by Vegeta. Shows how weak Toriyama's view on battle is. Vegeta giving up his power advantage just to confirm what was already shown and put himself at risk is ridiculous. The bluff was ballsy, but he had no choice, he should have just beaten 19 to a scrap heap with his fists, he was well on his way there beforehand.
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I go with 20 post > 19 post mainly by the implications of 20 being able to beat the same Vegeta who ripped #19's hands and head off. Vegeta had to resort to bluff, otherwise he would lose. And the main cause of Vegeta's loss of energy was 19's absorptions, as implied by Piccolo:
Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
There's also the fact that Vegeta dismissed the possibility of #19 being as fearsome as Trunks told them completely, while Piccolo had to think about two possibilities against Gero:
Vegeta at 19 post:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”
Piccolo at 20 post:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
Not to mention hints like 20's speed being higher than what Vegeta thought, or 20 not being still too concerned with 19's new powers aftet Goku's fight, all which imply a good difference between 20 and 19.
If Piccolo could defeat 20 post without problems, then he could do the same to 19 as well.
Piccolo opting to "play dead" was more because his aim was to save Goku. He still wasn't too sure about 20's capabilities, so it just shows he didn't want to possible engage into a troublesome match against him and risk getting Goku killed. It was a smart move to save Goku. He still stood tall when Kuririn purposed retreat, even when he didn't know Vegeta had SSJ, which shows he would still be able to handle both androids imo.
Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
There's also the fact that Vegeta dismissed the possibility of #19 being as fearsome as Trunks told them completely, while Piccolo had to think about two possibilities against Gero:
Vegeta at 19 post:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”
Piccolo at 20 post:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
Not to mention hints like 20's speed being higher than what Vegeta thought, or 20 not being still too concerned with 19's new powers aftet Goku's fight, all which imply a good difference between 20 and 19.
If Piccolo could defeat 20 post without problems, then he could do the same to 19 as well.
Piccolo opting to "play dead" was more because his aim was to save Goku. He still wasn't too sure about 20's capabilities, so it just shows he didn't want to possible engage into a troublesome match against him and risk getting Goku killed. It was a smart move to save Goku. He still stood tall when Kuririn purposed retreat, even when he didn't know Vegeta had SSJ, which shows he would still be able to handle both androids imo.
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20 Post > 19 Post is never implied. 19 gains massive amounts of power which 20 never had the option to. Who did 20 absorb exactly? He is probably only a bit stronger than 19 Pre remember, he's probably something like 1.2x stronger than 19 Pre. Then he absorbs Yamcha. Lol. That's nothing. 19 absorbs Base Goku, a weakened, drained, sick heart virus Base Goku is probably at least double Yamcha. 20 absorbed Suppressed Piccolo, who himself states that the power was literally nothing. And then finally, a controlled blast by Super Saiyan Vegeta of course, but what was the intent? To destroy some mountains. A level of power Piccolo Daimao of all people was capable of. So as I said, literally nothing adds up to 20 making massive jumps in power. 19 absorbed a real Kamehameha with bad intentions by a Super Saiyan, weakened yes, but he still put as much amplification into it as possible. Whereas, Vegeta clearly did not. He was pissed that he gave the Android any power at all, but it wasn't like he was giving him a massive dose of what Goku gave 19.
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I don't see why? What's the intention?
Vegeta's Blast- To level some mountains and not destroy the Earth.
Goku's Blast- To finish off an opponent who could easily handle Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Freeza on Namek in 5 seconds.
If Goku had aimed his blast at the Earth, he would have destroyed the Earth. Vegeta's blast was not going to destroy the Earth.
Vegeta's Blast- To level some mountains and not destroy the Earth.
Goku's Blast- To finish off an opponent who could easily handle Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Freeza on Namek in 5 seconds.
If Goku had aimed his blast at the Earth, he would have destroyed the Earth. Vegeta's blast was not going to destroy the Earth.
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