Piccolo vs Vegeta - a side by side comparison

[freezamite]

This is an interesting argument, but I think you've just dug your own grave again[you do that well].
For one thing, Why are u showing a Vegeta fight when the topic is Goku? Show manga panels of the actual fight between Goku and #19
Can u show me any evidence of Goku being in pain..particularly before he shoots the KHH? I don't see evidence of any pain at all.

Are you aware that "the pain" isn't a fixed metric where it doesn't affect you until you reach a point where it totally affects you?
Goku was ill from even before the fight started:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-146-index-2-page-7.html
At that point he still wasn't on pain, but that doesn't mean he was at 100% (besides his ki being much lower) either. Haven't you ever had a bit of fever (say, something like 37 degrees)? That's what I think Goku was feeling at that point. He wasn't in pain and he felt well enough not to worry, but I also think his ability to fight at 100% of his actual capacity wasn't quite there. That's also why I put initial sick SSJ Goku just a tad below his full 100% ill condition, because at that point Goku still didn't have figured something was very wrong with him.

It's only when #19 physically hits him do we see him actually have any pain.
So yeah...Goku looks a bit fatigued [not in pain] by the time he shoots the KHH..but it's only after he gets hit by #19 does Goku looks like he's in pain. Furthermore, Goku did not know he had the heart virus...and if he was in pain he would have consciously known. I see no evidence of Goku being in pain until #19 post KHH attacks him and hits him. He looks slightly fatigued right before he shoots the KHH and much more fatigued after the KHH...but that's about it.

You mean this?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-6.html
But at this point this wasn't just "a bit of pain", that was a pain so unbearable that Goku couldn't even dissimulate it. And the pain didn't go from 0 to there, it was gradually increased as the illness was spreading accelerated by the SSJ transformation.
I mean, we actually know that Goku became conscious of his situation (maybe not about the exact detail of his heart disease, but he knew something wasn't right) when he started to rush the fight:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-8.html

He went from calmly fight the android in the beginning of the fight to try to end it as soon as possible, which means that Goku's situation had already worsened to a point where he could notice it even in the middle of the fight. When he started to rush the fight, that means that he had already noticed the pain, even if it still was something he could endure.

He should still be significantly below #18 in power. For one his performance vs #18 was nowhere near as good as Kamiccolo's performance vs #17. And Kamiccolo was stated to be an equal to #17. So Vegeta is certainly not #18's equal.

Vegeta wasn't #18's equal, he only matched her in brute strength but the unlimited stamina gave the android a total advantage.
On the ohter hand, Piccolo did much better against #17 because he in fact had a slight advantage over the android as he himself says:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-174-index-2-page-5.html
They were equal in speed, but Piccolo had an advantage in strength and that's why unlike Vegeta, he was able to put up a more decent fight against 17.

Secondly Cell before he starts absorbing people should stronger than SSJ Vegeta and Cell was not even #18's rival. So we still get #18 > Imperfect Cell [pre absorbtions] > SSJ Vegeta.

I don't think that's true. Only Piccolo was stated to be above Vegeta, and he was defeating Cell without even trying (he didn't even took his weighted clothes before fighting him).
And Vegeta fighting 18 at her same level is something that's clearly stated. This is not speculation, and 18 was serious at that point as well, so it's not like she was hiding any more strength.

You cannot sprain your ankle without injuring it you fucktard. That's like saying you can get shot in the brain without injuring your brain.

Lol that's beyond stupid. Of course you can sprain your ankle without having a permanent injury. A shot in the brain will always pierce it, a sprain in an ankle can go from breaking it, to just be in a bit of pain for a few moments and nothing more.
But hey, if spraining your ankle is too difficult of an example for you, I'll put you another example. Imagine someone punches you in your nose without breaking it. The few instants after the punch will be much more painful to you than, let's say, the next hour, or the day after it. Pain affects performance, I thought you grasped it in the first part of your message, but you seem to have entered "retard mode" again.

Pain is there..biologically speaking... to inform us something is wrong with our bodies and we should do something about it.

Of course, and also for biological reasons your body gets accustomed to the pain after a while and it can even negate it depending on the situation. The thing is, the more pain you feel, the less you're able to perform to your actual capacities. It doesn't take a genius to understand such a basic thing.

Secondly. I call bullshit on everything you say because Goku showed absolutely no signs of pain with his fight initially with #19..as shown above. Certainly not when Piccolo was making that statement [he ki should be much more stupendous!]

Goku went from normally fighting the android to trying to rush the fight, which means that at that point he already felt not OK (and since he was concentrated on the androids and the fight, he probably didn't realise the pain until it was starting to be big). Look, one not crying or moaning doesn't mean he is not in pain. Maybe to you this is the case, and as soon as you feel a bit bad you start mounting a spectacle, but that's not the case for an adult.

Goku had no pain when Piccolo made that first comment..he just had a much lower battle power than what his full power would be. If he had pain he wouldnt even have fought.

Hahahah what kind of argument is that? So you're saying that if Goku had felt a bit of pain, he would've let the androids destroy the whole planet? Hey, one day I even went to work at 38Cº of fever and feeling pretty bad because I had to do something important, and believe me, it wasn't even 100th as important as saving the fucking planet.

He shows no signs of any physical pain in his facial expressions a the first part of the fight. You can't be unconscious of pain..pain is a conscious stimulation to the brain. If it's not a stimulation the brain can feel...well then it's not pain. Goku's not in pain at the beginning of the fight.

Goku not being a crybaby like you have admitted you are doesn't mean he wasn't in pain. All we know is that he was feeling good enough at the beginning of the fight to not rush it (that doesn't mean he wasn't feeling any pain, just that it wasn't something he would change his course of action because of it), that he then decided to rush the fight (he clearly felt pain there, otherwise he wouldn't have changed his strategy) and that it finally was so unbearable to him that he couldn't dissimulate it any longer.

WHAT THE MANGA SAYS is Goku showing no signs of pain out of the ordinary. He only shows low power and some very minimal fatigue [before he shoots the KHH]. Then after the KHH he shows heavier fatigue. Only when #19 hits him does he start showing pain and then later on does he grab his heart.

Minimal fatigue you say? Goku was already fatigued before the fight against 19 started only because he flew from the city to where they fought. That's not minimal for someone like Goku, even Ten Shin could do that without even sweating.
Look, you're trying to argue that Goku's pain went from 0 to unbearable which besides making no sense considering that pain was from his illness and not an injury dealt by 19, it also contradicts the fact that Goku's attitude changed for no apparent reason.
Tell me, genius, if Goku didn't start to seriously feel the pain before that post-KHH scene, why did he start rushing the fight? It wasn't because the fatigue, because he already felt that from before starting to fight 19 and he started to fight him like he would normally do (taking his time and everything).

Well I agree with that of course. But that doesnt prove any of ur points. Ohh waite u never had a point. Your entire written diarrhea is nothing but a bunch of irrational and self contradictory and made up assertions that make no sense.

Of course it proves it, you've had to enter partial Evil Vegeta mode trying to argue stupid things as "Goku changed his attitude because he was losing the train back at home and not because he was feeling any pain -yeah, you haven't used those words, that would be full Evil Vegeta mode, but you clearly implied that Goku changed his attitude in the fight for no reason which is equally as stupid" or "Goku didn't feel any pain until he couldn't even properly resist it".

Good, try making a power chain that isnt self contradictory. I already have. Yours are and your critiques of mine are and don't hold up.

Didn't you see my last power list? In what point that list contradicts itself? I mean, you've tried to argue stupid things like the aforementioned, but even if that was true the list wouldn't be self-contradictory in itself.
And your list... do you mean that list where power gaps twice as big as the ones between Vegeta and Dodoria aren't considered to be even big? Do I seriously have to tell you how wrong that list of yours is? LoL

I had the gap between SSJ Goku [initial sick pre KHH] > Android #19 [pre KHH absorption] bigger than Android #19 [post KHH] > Goku [post KHH in pain]. and there's nothing wrong with that. Neither were one shot gaps. 25% difference for sick SSJ Goku [pre KHH] vs #19 [pre absorbtion] and 18% difference for #19 [post absorbtion] > Goku [post KHH].

The problem wasn't having the gap between initial SSJ Goku and 19 bigger than 19 and SSJ post KHH. The problems were having those gaps being bigger than gaps that translated into a one-sided fight without the fight you're putting numbers on being as one sided as those other fights.

 

[p123]

Thank you mini P.

 

[p123 is a God]

Yeah, I am mini compared to you. But I am a HUGE fan of your!!!

 

[p123]

Yes. Praise me.

 

[Kyo]

what the hell was that shit lol

 

[p123]

Hey, on what grounds have you suspended my #1 fan. The Great One does not appreciate that. Reinvigorate my friend with abilities once again.

 

[ahill1]

Poor mini P. Was suspended...

 

[Kyo]

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Let me enlighten you...

Android 19
~ initial 700,000,000,000
~ post absorption 900,000,000,000

Android 20
~ initial 800,000,000,000
~ post absorption 1,000,000,000,000

p you fuckin clown they have more levels of power than this fix your shit smh

 

[Kyo]

Poor mini P. Was suspended...

now let's take care of the other one eh

 

[ahill1]

Where have u been Kyo? Debate more with us.

 

[Kyo]

I don't have that much free time and taking DBZ discussion seriously is quite low on the priority list

 

[SSJ2]

Hey, on what grounds have you suspended my #1 fan. The Great One does not appreciate that. Reinvigorate my friend with abilities once again.

ahill sucks your nuts enough on his own account, don't need a dupe to increase it boss.

 

[p123]

How dare you. Don't hurt my mini P army. We will swarm you.

 

[SSJ2]

You on your own are overwhelming enough big man!

 

[Victorious]

At that point he still wasn't in pain, but that doesn't mean he was at 100% (besides his ki being much lower) either. Haven't you ever had a bit of fever (say, something like 37 degrees)? That's what I think Goku was feeling at that point. He wasn't in pain and he felt well enough not to worry, but I also think his ability to fight at 100% of his actual capacity wasn't quite there. That's also why I put initial sick SSJ Goku just a tad below his full 100% ill condition, because at that point Goku still didn't have figured something was very wrong with him.

He obviously wasnt fighting at 100% capacity..that's why we have a 'sick Goku' power. Healthy Goku would be rivalling SSJ Vegeta's power. You said he was feeling pain initially in the fight causing his punches to lack focus relative to his power output..but he clearly is not in any pain at all. So you just made things up. Like always.

you mean this?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-6.html
But at this point this wasn't just "a bit of pain", that was a pain so unbearable that Goku couldn't even dissimulate it.

I agree, that's pain. He's clearly in pain. However the beginning of the fight..and it lasts a while [pre KHH] he felt no pain at all. There's no evidence at all.

And the pain didn't go from 0 to there, it was gradually increased as the illness was spreading accelerated by the SSJ transformation.
I mean, we actually know that Goku became conscious of his situation (maybe not about the exact detail of his heart disease, but he knew something wasn't right) when he started to rush the fight:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-8.html

He's obviously rushing the fight because he knows something is wrong with him.....after all Piccolo knew something was wrong with him. That's cause his power output is shit and he's fatigued.

He went from calmly fight the android in the beginning of the fight to try to end it as soon as possible, which means that Goku's situation had already worsened to a point where he could notice it even in the middle of the fight. When he started to rush the fight, that means that he had already noticed the pain, even if it still was something he could endure.

He had noticed the pain? How about he notices his power output is shit and he's fatigued. he doesnt look like he is in pain..nor did he say he was in pain...nor did Piccolo say he was in pain. Conclusion? You're making things up of course.

Vegeta wasn't #18's equal, he only matched her in brute strength but the unlimited stamina gave the android a total advantage.
On the ohter hand, Piccolo did much better against #17 because he in fact had a slight advantage over the android as he himself says:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-174-index-2-page-5.html
They were equal in speed, but Piccolo had an advantage in strength and that's why unlike Vegeta, he was able to put up a more decent fight against 17.

Kamiccolo was very slightly stronger than #17 but he was also slightly slower. Whatever advantage Kamiccolo had in strength...well #17 had in speed.

It's later stated by #17 right before Cell shows up they're dead equals but Kamiccolo's stamina is falling.

I don't think that's true. Only Piccolo was stated to be above Vegeta, and he was defeating Cell without even trying (he didn't even took his weighted clothes before fighting him).

You don't think Imperfect cell is stronger than SSJ Vegeta? Because it's stated fact that IPC is not #18 rival.

Why does Vegeta call Imperfect Cell's power huge and also says everyone is easily outpacing the Super Saiyan? Are you saying that's a statement that doesnt include IPC? Well then you'd figure Vegeta would say everyone but IPC is outpacing the SSJ. Not to mention the SSJs like Trunks or Vegeta would try and find Cell..but only Kamiccolo was chasing him.

Put it simply..there is absolutely no evidence SSJ Vegeta is as strong or stronger than Imperfect Cell..and everything points to the opposite.

And Vegeta fighting 18 at her same level is something that's clearly stated. This is not speculation, and 18 was serious at that point as well, so it's not like she was hiding any more strength.

She totally demolished Vegeta...she didnt have any blood or injuries at all after the fight.

Lol that's beyond stupid. Of course you can sprain your ankle without having a permanent injury.

You didnt say originally a "permanent injury"..but a sprained ankle is an injury..you idiot.

A shot in the brain will always pierce it, a sprain in an ankle can go from breaking it, to just be in a bit of pain for a few moments and nothing more.
But hey, if spraining your ankle is too difficult of an example for you, I'll put you another example. Imagine someone punches you in your nose without breaking it. The few instants after the punch will be much more painful to you than, let's say, the next hour, or the day after it. Pain affects performance.

Exactly...I injured my nose and it also caused pain. Duhh.

Of course, and also for biological reasons your body gets accustomed to the pain after a while and it can even negate it depending on the situation. The thing is, the more pain you feel, the less you're able to perform to your actual capacities. It doesn't take a genius to understand such a basic thing.

I agree.

Goku went from normally fighting the android to trying to rush the fight, which means that at that point he already felt not OK (and since he was concentrated on the androids and the fight, he probably didn't realise the pain until it was starting to be big). Look, one not crying or moaning doesn't mean he is not in pain. Maybe to you this is the case, and as soon as you feel a bit bad you start mounting a spectacle, but that's not the case for an adult.

He was rushing the fight because of fatigue and having a very low power

not to mention he would know something is wrong if his power output was shit..which it was. There's no evidence he's in pain initially or even when Piccolo says that. You can stop making things up now. K thanks.

Goku had no pain when Piccolo made that first comment..he just had a much lower battle power than what his full power would be. If he had pain he wouldnt even have fought.
Hahahah what kind of argument is that? So you're saying that if Goku had felt a bit of pain, he would've let the androids destroy the whole planet? Hey, one day I even went to work at 38Cº of fever and feeling pretty bad because I had to do something important, and believe me, it wasn't even 100th as important as saving the fucking planet.

No but you'd figure if Goku fealt pain in his heart he'd know it's the heart virus and he'd ask for the medicine. Sorry but your narrative not only wants to turn Goku into some kind of guy that shows no evidence for pain yet somehow has it...he would also be a complete idiot for feeling pain in his heart and not asking for the heart medicine before the fight.

Goku not being a crybaby like you have admitted you are doesn't mean he wasn't in pain. All we know is that he was feeling good enough at the beginning of the fight to not rush it (that doesn't mean he wasn't feeling any pain, just that it wasn't something he would change his course of action because of it), that he then decided to rush the fight (he clearly felt pain there, otherwise he wouldn't have changed his strategy) and that it finally was so unbearable to him that he couldn't dissimulate it any longer.

Well why does he grab his heart after the KHH and after #19 beats the shit out of him? So he is a crybaby after all I guess. Man that's like the 1,000th time you've contradicted yourself..it's getting old.

And maybe he decided to "change his strategy" because he was piss weak and fatigued? After all he shows signs of being piss weak and fatigued. Pain he does not. So yeah..i think i've had enough of your made up bullshit. Plus I'm not so sure Goku ever did actually change his strategy..how do we know he wasnt always rushing the fight from the get go?

Minimal fatigue you say? Goku was already fatigued before the fight against 19 started only because he flew from the city to where they fought. That's not minimal for someone like Goku, even Ten Shin could do that without even sweating.

In the fight he initially shows no fatigue,then he shows some right before he shoots that KHH. Then after the KHH he shows a ton of fatigue. As for pain. Well he shows lots of pain when #19 starts beating his face in..and then he shows heart pain when he grabs his chest. But before the KHH there's absolutely no pain he's showing. You know you need to have evidence to proove Goku was in pain the whole time..not just make things up. I could say Vegeta was in pain his whole fight with #18 if I wanted to..despite never showing evidence.

Tell me, genius, if Goku didn't start to seriously feel the pain before that post-KHH scene, why did he start rushing the fight? It wasn't because the fatigue, because he already felt that from before starting to fight 19 and he started to fight him like he would normally do (taking his time and everything).

How do we know he wasnt always rushing the fight and that's just something Piccolo makes a remark on a few minutes into it as an observation? I'm honestly not so sure. He seemed to be very aggressive from the get go. Secondly I think he rushes the fight because of fatigue and the fact he realizes he's much weaker than what he's supposed to be as Piccolo and Gohan had noticed. He's supposed to be right up there with SSJ Vegeta. Would SSJ Vegeta rush the fight with #19 pre? Probably not.

Of course it proves it, you've had to enter partial Evil Vegeta mode trying to argue stupid things as "Goku changed his attitude because he was losing the train back at home and not because he was feeling any pain -yeah, you haven't used those words, that would be full Evil Vegeta mode, but you clearly implied that Goku changed his attitude in the fight for no reason which is equally as stupid" or "Goku didn't feel any pain until he couldn't even properly resist it".

Goku rushes the fight because of something he shows evidence of..like being piss weak and fatigued. Something that Piccolo and Gohan easily noticed too. Not something he shows no evidence of..internal heart pain.

And your list... do you mean that list where power gaps twice as big as the ones between Vegeta and Dodoria aren't considered to be even big? Do I seriously have to tell you how wrong that list of yours is? LoL

What power gaps do I have twice as big as Vegeta and Dodoria? Vegeta I have at 24,000 and Dodoria at 20,000 which is 83/100 gap. Vegeta dominated Dodoria but did finish him off with a ki blast. Ki blasts finishers don't count as one shots because they are amplified. I have initial sick Goku > #19 pre bigger than Vegeta vs Dodoria [pretty minimally and nowhere close to twice as big] but I would put #19's gap on sick Goku post KHH the same i guess. I'm sure #19 post could finish sick Goku post KHH off easily with a huge amped up ki blast.

The problem wasn't having the gap between initial SSJ Goku and 19 bigger than 19 and SSJ post KHH. The problems were having those gaps being bigger than gaps that translated into a one-sided fight without the fight you're putting numbers on being as one sided as those other fights.

My gaps from biggest to smallest would go something like this.

Android #17 > Piccolo : 50/100 gap
Android #17 > SSJ Future Trunks : 55-60/100 gap
SSJ Vegeta > Android #19 [post absorptions] : 70/100 gap.
Piccolo > Android #20 [post absorption] : 77/100 gap
SSJ sick Goku [initial] > Android #19 [pre absorptions] : 80/100 gap
Android #19 [post KHH absorbtions] > SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] : 85/100 gap.

When I think about it..I think initial SSJ sick Goku being 25% ahead of Android #19 may be too big..I like your 20% range you had. Considering Vegeta's gap on #19 seems to be noticeably bigger. Vegeta is a physical beast compared to #19 while Goku was just well above him.

I just don't think 20% is one-two shot range typically. One-two shot range starts more around 33-40% gap IMO. Yes Vegeta did dominate Dodoria with only like a 17% edge but all he did during that fight was move much quicker than him and hold his arms behind his back. When he "one shotted" him it was with an amplified blast. Amplified ki blasts don't count as physical one shots.

And yes for the love of god..I definitely think Android #19 post absorbtions can be stronger than initial SSJ sick Goku. Others have pointed out is not quite clear but there's no reason to think he couldnt have surpassed initial SSJ sick Goku. I think SSJ Vegeta may be able to one or two SSJ sick Goku. Because SSJ sick Goku is still quite a bit weaker than Piccolo I feel.

SSJ Vegeta >> Piccolo >> SSJ sick Goku [initial] >> SSJ Yardrat Goku. That's the chain i've followed for a while now.

Vegeta : 500
Piccolo : 400
Sick Goku : 340
Yardrat Goku : 300

 

[ahill1]

Vic, do you have #20 post < initial SSJ sick Goku?

 

[Victorious]

Anyway Freezamite you are a troll that makes things up and a self contradictory fucktard that puts his foot in his mouth the more he opens it. None of your arguments hold weight. I realize you are a troll. I mean who the fuck believes Goku in the Namek saga was just casually standing around in kaioken x 10 or thinks Imperfect Cell is weaker than pre RoSaT SSJ Vegeta. LOL

You wont be getting any more responses from me.

P123...i release my Android arc powers in a new thread..we'll discuss.

 

[Victorious]

Vic, do you have #20 post < initial SSJ sick Goku?

No I don't think so. I'm not sure I could see Piccolo just decimating SSJ sick Goku like he did #20 post. [Though he would defeat him handily I feel].

Though #20 post might be 90-93% of SSJ sick Goku.

 

[p123]

Vic you need to label the trolls as Foe in the Friend or Foe section and it lets you ignore their posts. Best thing I ever did. To see you going that hard and being made that big of a fool of by that troll, fuck that, you are better than that.

Yea I look forward to your numbers.

One thing I want to say is that Piccolo's comment on 17's punches being weak is a flat out lie. He literally has his guts punched in, much in the same manner he did pre Kami. It's a stupid line. 17 and Piccolo are equals, check out their fight.

 

[ahill1]

I think I'd add an another arrow for Androids saga Piccolo and SSJ Vegeta and have the latter noticeably stronger than the Namekian at the Trunks saga now.