Piccolo vs Vegeta - a side by side comparison

[Victorious]

- Ill SSJ Goku (start of the fight, feels bad but still not rushing it so he isn't giving it his all): 100 KI, 95 effective maximum offensive capacity, 87 strength Goku is using to fight 19 without going all out
- Initial 19: 80 KI
- Ill SSJ Goku (when Piccolo describes him as being weak, rushing the fight and already feeling the pain): 90 KI, 77 effective offensive capacity
19 while being beaten by Goku (when Piccolo describes Goku as being too weak): 70
- Ill SSJ Goku post KHH (he feels really bad): 85, 65 effective offensive capacity (his hit does nothing to 19 even if he has the speed to dodge or connect it and the endurance to resist 19's hits)
- 19 post-KHH: 85
- 19 post-KHH post-base Goku: 87

The thing is (and this is what you seem unable to understand) that Trunks SSJ (the weakest SSJ in that saga) had a power of at least 140.

Hey idiot...you do realize that Goku's power/ki without the heart virus would be much larger..he'd be rivaling SSJ Vegeta..who I agree would be 140-150ish range if initial Sick Goku was 100. So when we make numbers for "sick Goku"'s power output we are in fact accounting for the heart viruses effect on Goku's fighting ability. That's the whole point. The heart virus is lowering his power and ability drastically...and our battle power numbers reflect that. That's why Piccolo said his true power should be far more stupendous. He's nowhere near what he should be at full healthy power [a power that would really be rivalling SSJ Vegeta]. We're already accounting for the viruses' effect on his ability in our numbers. What the fuck are u doing? Saying it effects him by lowering his power output and fighting ability which we all acknowledge..then saying that shitty weakened power output Goku is putting out because of the heart virus isnt the same as the power output he's putting out because of the heart virus? That makes no fucking sense. We have already incorporated the heart virusus effect on his fighting ability. He can only have one actual fighting power at the same time. We all know that the virus lowered his power.

This is of course..just more asspull garbage from you in your long history of asspull. You really are the king of asspull nonsense.

Well, he's making you look like the fool, I hope you know that. Hook, line and sinker. You are taking the bait big time. Block that fool and have normal discussions. I'm not getting suckered into discussions that weren't even discussion worthy on Neo in fucking 2010. FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

Anyway, continue Vic.

Yeah, pretty sure this guy is the love child of XxSkelterxX and Tosh

And yeah mate I'll be getting my power level charts up soon. from the Mecha Freeza arc to Kamiccolo up soon.

 

[p123]

Good, I can't wait to try to crush them. Ahill's numbers are looking really good, you have competition my friend.

 

[Victorious]

Thats cause Ahill uses my old numbers almost entirely. lol

 

[ahill1]

Thats cause Ahill uses my old numbers almost entirely. lol

Not anymore my friend :wink:

 

[freezamite]

Why is Goku's strength and maximum fighting not the same as his ki? Are you saying he's off balance? That was never implied at all.

No, it's not a matter of him being unbalanced, it's a matter of him being in pain.
I'll put you a clear example:
This is SSJ Vegeta just after his arm is broken by #18:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-14.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-2.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-3.html

Even when he still has the power of a SSJ, the pain paralyses him and he can't react until much later (Trunks, Piccolo and even Ten Shin have time to intervene in the fight before Vegeta can react). In other words it clearly affects his performance (like in a lot of other fights) without affecting his ki (his ki got lower because of the broken arm injury, but not to the point of him not being able to move).
He still was above SSJ Trunks there as proven by the next scene once the pain diminishes and Vegeta regains movement:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-8.html
And Trunks is left unconscious but Vegeta isn't.

The Ki one has is not the only factor when it comes to fighting capabilities, this was made pretty apparent in the fight in Ginger Town:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-169-index-2-page-7.html

Piccolo still had a stronger Ki than Cell, but without his arm he couldn't have fought at Cell's level. Of course Piccolo tricked Cell because he could regenerate his arm (a bit forced that Cell forgot about that, but I guess Toriyama needed an excuse to make Cell explain his origins), but the premise was clear.

Now, if you look at the fight of Goku vs 19, he is constantly feeling more and more pain due to the heart disease. It's not just that he was weakened by it, the intense pain it caused further diminished Goku's performance, that's why his offensive capacity is lower than his Ki. Ki means power level (the life force one has) and the pain doesn't affect the defences of a character.

LMAO.

Vegeta along with the others was stated to be helpless against #18 on several occassions.

Yes Vegeta was helpless because the android had unlimited energy, but if you had read the manga you would know that in terms of brute strength, he matched the android for a few instants:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-12.html
We are talking about one shooting someone, the unlimited stamina is not a factor here only the brute strength.

Hey idiot...you do realize that Goku's power/ki without the heart virus would be much larger..he'd be rivaling SSJ Vegeta.. who I agree would be 140-150ish range if initial Sick Goku was 100. So when we make numbers for "sick Goku"'s power output we are in fact accounting for the heart viruses effect on Goku's fighting ability.

Look, you're not very smart, you've proven that multiple times. Not only you don't know your facts when speaking about DB, you can't even understand what you're being told (and not only once, it's constant).
But don't worry, I'll explain it again. The heart virus has 2 effects on Goku: It weakens his Ki (which Piccolo can feel and he is talking about) and it causes him pain (which further diminishes his performance in a fight, but can't be sensed).
I know that a list that contemplates both factors is too much for you, but I'll put you another example:
Imagine you're participating in a marathon, and you sprain your ankle without injuring it. In the few seconds after the fact, you'll be in pain and you'll move much slower than after some minutes, even if in terms of being injured you'll be exactly the same.
Can you understand this? No, of course you can't, you're that stupid in the end. A poor kid that instead of going to school to learn reading comprehension loses his time insulting people in the internet, what a sad life.

That's the whole point.

Look, you can't speak of "points". Points is what makes the people that understands what they're saying and replying to, and this is well above your capabilities as you've proven multiple times.

That's why Piccolo said his true power should be far more stupendous. He's nowhere near what he should be at full healthy power [a power that would really be rivalling SSJ Vegeta]. We're already accounting for the viruses' effect on his ability in our numbers. What the fuck are u doing?

The PAIN (not the injuries) can't be sensed. Piccolo could sense Goku's decreasing Ki because of the illness, but he couldn't sense the pain Goku was feeling at that moment and that also further diminished Goku's performance. Are you really that retarded that you can't even understand this? Seriously?

Saying it effects him by lowering his power output and fighting ability which we all acknowledge..then saying that shitty weakened power output Goku is putting out because of the heart virus isnt the same as the power output he's putting out because of the heart virus? That makes no fucking sense.

Of course it does, because even if you can't understand what you're being told nor know your facts about the series, there's something evident during those chapters. This Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-3.html
Was less in pain than this other one:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-6.html

It's not only a matter of the ki diminishing, it's a matter of the pain Goku was feeling. And in a context where this pain not only doesn't disappear like it normally would if it was the result of a punch, but is constantly increasing, has to be considered when power scaling if you want to do it right. Doing it right... do you understand what that means? Of course not, but heck, you understand nothing and here I'm trying to explain things as if you could LoL

We have already incorporated the heart virusus effect on his fighting ability.

NO, because the whole point is Piccolo's claim that Goku was weak to be a SSJ. Piccolo was sensing Goku's power, and made that claim based on that. At that point he didn't know Goku was in pain, he only saw Goku rushing the fight and being weak for some reason he still couldn't understand.
As I told you in the other message, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, THIS IS ABOUT WHAT THE MANGA SAYS. Can you understand this? No, of course you can't.

If I'm using Piccolo's claim of Goku being WEAK to prove my point, I also have to take into account what Piccolo didn't know but affected on Goku's performance. Hey, it's called being coherent.

This is of course..just more asspull garbage from you in your long history of asspull. You really are the king of asspull nonsense.

Of course man, of course

 

[Victorious]

No, it's not a matter of him being unbalanced, it's a matter of him being in pain.
I'll put you a clear example:
This is SSJ Vegeta just after his arm is broken by #18:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-14.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-2.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-3.html

Even when he still has the power of a SSJ, the pain paralyses him and he can't react until much later (Trunks, Piccolo and even Ten Shin have time to intervene in the fight before Vegeta can react). In other words it clearly affects his performance (like in a lot of other fights) without affecting his ki (his ki got lower because of the broken arm injury, but not to the point of him not being able to move).
He still was above SSJ Trunks there as proven by the next scene once the pain diminishes and Vegeta regains movement:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-160-index-2-page-8.html
And Trunks is left unconscious but Vegeta isn't.

The Ki one has is not the only factor when it comes to fighting capabilities, this was made pretty apparent in the fight in Ginger Town:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-169-index-2-page-7.html

This is an interesting argument, but I think you've just dug your own grave again[you do that well].
For one thing, Why are u showing a Vegeta fight when the topic is Goku? Show manga panels of the actual fight between Goku and #19
Can u show me any evidence of Goku being in pain..particularly before he shoots the KHH? I don't see evidence of any pain at all. It's only when #19 physically hits him do we see him actually have any pain.

Spoiler

So yeah...Goku looks a bit fatigued [not in pain] by the time he shoots the KHH..but it's only after he gets hit by #19 does Goku looks like he's in pain. Furthermore, Goku did not know he had the heart virus...and if he was in pain he would have consciously known. I see no evidence of Goku being in pain until #19 post KHH attacks him and hits him. He looks slightly fatigued right before he shoots the KHH and much more fatigued after the KHH...but that's about it.

Yes Vegeta was helpless because the android had unlimited energy, but if you had read the manga you would know that in terms of brute strength, he matched the android for a few instants:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-159-index-2-page-12.html
We are talking about one shooting someone, the unlimited stamina is not a factor here only the brute strength.

He should still be significantly below #18 in power. For one his performance vs #18 was nowhere near as good as Kamiccolo's performance vs #17. And Kamiccolo was stated to be an equal to #17. So Vegeta is certainly not #18's equal. Secondly Cell before he starts absorbing people should stronger than SSJ Vegeta and Cell was not even #18's rival. So we still get #18 > Imperfect Cell [pre absorbtions] > SSJ Vegeta.

Look, you're not very smart, you've proven that multiple times. Not only you don't know your facts when speaking about DB, you can't even understand what you're being told (and not only once, it's constant).
But don't worry, I'll explain it again. The heart virus has 2 effects on Goku: It weakens his Ki (which Piccolo can feel and he is talking about) and it causes him pain (which further diminishes his performance in a fight, but can't be sensed).
I know that a list that contemplates both factors is too much for you, but I'll put you another example:
Imagine you're participating in a marathon, and you sprain your ankle without injuring it. In the few seconds after the fact, you'll be in pain and you'll move much slower than after some minutes, even if in terms of being injured you'll be exactly the same.
Can you understand this? No, of course you can't, you're that stupid in the end. A poor kid that instead of going to school to learn reading comprehension loses his time insulting people in the internet, what a sad life.

You cannot sprain your ankle without injuring it you fucktard. That's like saying you can get shot in the brain without injuring your brain. The sprain causes injury which results in pain [a biological reaction to injury].

Pain is there..biologically speaking... to inform us something is wrong with our bodies and we should do something about it.

Secondly. I call bullshit on everything you say because Goku showed absolutely no signs of pain with his fight initially with #19..as shown above. Certainly not when Piccolo was making that statement [he ki should be much more stupendous!]

The PAIN (not the injuries) can't be sensed. Piccolo could sense Goku's decreasing Ki because of the illness, but he couldn't sense the pain Goku was feeling at that moment and that also further diminished Goku's performance. Are you really that retarded that you can't even understand this? Seriously?

Goku had no pain when Piccolo made that first comment..he just had a much lower battle power than what his full power would be. If he had pain he wouldnt even have fought. He shows no signs of any physical pain in his facial expressions a the first part of the fight. You can't be unconscious of pain..pain is a conscious stimulation to the brain. If it's not a stimulation the brain can feel...well then it's not pain. Goku's not in pain at the beginning of the fight.

.
NO, because the whole point is Piccolo's claim that Goku was weak to be a SSJ. Piccolo was sensing Goku's power, and made that claim based on that. At that point he didn't know Goku was in pain, he only saw Goku rushing the fight and being weak for some reason he still couldn't understand.
As I told you in the other message, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, THIS IS ABOUT WHAT THE MANGA SAYS. Can you understand this? No, of course you can't.

WHAT THE MANGA SAYS is Goku showing no signs of pain out of the ordinary. He only shows low power and some very minimal fatigue [before he shoots the KHH]. Then after the KHH he shows heavier fatigue. Only when #19 hits him does he start showing pain and then later on does he grab his heart.

Of course it does, because even if you can't understand what you're being told nor know your facts about the series, there's something evident during those chapters. This Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-3.html
Was less in pain than this other one:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-6.html

Well I agree with that of course. But that doesnt prove any of ur points. Ohh waite u never had a point. Your entire written diarrhea is nothing but a bunch of irrational and self contradictory and made up assertions that make no sense.

And in a context where this pain not only doesn't disappear like it normally would if it was the result of a punch, but is constantly increasing, has to be considered when power scaling if you want to do it right. Doing it right... do you understand what that means? Of course not, but heck, you understand nothing and here I'm trying to explain things as if you could LoL

Good, try making a power chain that isnt self contradictory. I already have. Yours are and your critiques of mine are and don't hold up.

I had the gap between SSJ Goku [initial sick pre KHH] > Android #19 [pre KHH absorption] bigger than Android #19 [post KHH] > Goku [post KHH in pain]. and there's nothing wrong with that. Neither were one shot gaps. 25% difference for sick SSJ Goku [pre KHH] vs #19 [pre absorbtion] and 18% difference for #19 [post absorbtion] > Goku [post KHH].

 

[Victorious]

Freezamite said my 18% difference between #19 post KHH absorbtion and SSJ sick Goku post KHH was too big and Goku would have been one shotted. Yet he contradicted himself by putting initial sick Goku 20% over #19 pre and we know #19 pre did not get one shotted .He tried tried to save face by saying Goku was in pain and his offensive blows could not match his ki..yet he made all that up and Goku shows no signs of pain early on in the fight (pre KHH). he also said #19 post absorbtions vs Vegeta could not have surpassed initial SSJ sick Goku...but he provided no evidence he couldnt have.

 

[ahill1]

Goku SSJ sick initial > #19 (pre) gap being above #19 post KMHMH > Goku SSJ sick (post KMHMH) is not evidence #19 couldn't have surpassed initial SSJ sick Goku.

 

[Victorious]

There is no evidence 19 post could not have surpassed SSJ sick Goku. Im not saying its certain either way..but it makes my numbers fit more smoothly. 19 gained a large boost by absorbing the KHH. May have been more than enough to make up for the gap Goku had on him early in the fight. Anyway the SSJ Vegeta gap on #19 post is the biggestr of the #19 fight gaps. Yet i still dont think Vegeta can quite one or two shot #19 post.

 

[ahill1]

edit

 

[Kyo]

quote

 

[ahill1]

what

 

[Cell]

what

The correct response was "report".

 

[ahill1]

he should've said "report" :wink:

 

[p123]

You're wrong Vic.

Sick Goku > 19 Post > Goku Post KHH > 19 Pre

Goku is stated to have lost a substantial amount of power, yet is much closer to 19 than 19 Pre previously was to Goku. 19 has gained power, but it doesn't seem to be as strong as you suggest.

Piccolo > 20 Post / Sick Goku > 19 Post > Goku Post KHH / 20 Pre > 19 Pre

And that's the bottom line.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think #19 post > Goku SSJ sick is factually wrong though. What you said P only does mean Goku post KMHMH was still stronger than #19 pre by a greater margin than initial sick Goku > #19 pre.

Android #19 [post Goku] 215
Android #19 [post KHH] 210
Goku sick [initial] 200
Goku sick [post KMHMH] 175
Android #19 pre 150

 

[Victorious]

19 just gained a lot of power absorbing the KHH. While Goku could have lost 15% power 19 may have gained 30% power. Theres nothing wrong with 19 post > initial sock Goku.

 

[ahill1]

Either option is fine by me.

There's a fair point about #19 post being above sick Goku, in which #20 said that Vegeta transforming like this (like Goku did earlier) wouldn't make him a match for #19 post, which might indicate he already surpassed initial sick Goku.

 

[p123]

Goku cannot significantly lose that much power and still put up that good of a fight if 19 is superior to Goku's original power.

 

[ahill1]

Like I said, what if Goku (post KHH) was > #19 pre by a more significant margin than #19 post was > initial sick Goku? That'd mean the fight Goku could put up would be better than the one #19 did put up.

And I don't see that as "that good of a fight"... Goku dodged one punch and did punch #19 in the face with little result, with #19 laughing at it. That's about it.