Piccolo vs Vegeta - a side by side comparison

[freezamite]

What the fuck does any of the Vegeta vs #18 fight have to do with Vegeta vs #19 post? I dont think #18 can one or two shot SSJ Vegeta nor do i think SSJ Vegeta can one or two shot Android #19 post.

Firstly, no one is saying anything about #18 being able to two shot Vegeta, the one that was two-shotted was SSJ Trunks.
The thing is, SSJ Trunks was much stronger than ill SSJ Goku when Piccolo described him as weak, and post-absoprtion 19 was just a tad stronger than a Goku that was even weaker than that.
Vegeta had in fact the same strength as 18 when serious and non weakened.

The rest of ur post is pure asspull conjecture that makes no sense. None of the Goku vs 19 fight means anything in terms of Vegeta's being able to one shot 19 post.

Well, it's as much as an aspull conjecture as saying that Kid Bu was stronger than Mutenroshi. Do we see Kid Bu beating Mutenroshi? No, we never see it. But we see Kid Bu beating someone (SSJ 2 Vegeta) that could beat Mutenroshi (well, I don't think I need to prove SSJ 2 Vegeta was above Mutenroshi, but seeing how you can't see the relation between SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks, Piccolo's comment on ill SSJ Goku and #19, maybe even that will be an "asspull" to you) so it can be "asspulled" that Kid Bu was above Mutenroshi as well.
Now we see Trunks being 2 shot by the androids, and we also see Trunks being much weaker than the weakened Vegeta that was trashed by 18. We also know that #19 wasn't much above post-KHH ill Goku, and we know that post-KHH ill Goku was clearly weaker than pre-KHH ill Goku when Piccolo already said that he was weak compared to what should be expected from a SSJ.

I know you still won't see any relation in those facts, but believe me, it clearly exists.

Secondly I think #19 post that SSJ Vegeta tanked is stronger than initial Sick SSJ Goku..much less post Kamehameha sick SSJ Goku.

If #19 post absorption was above initial sick SSJ Goku, how do you explain that?
1. Post KHH Goku dodges 19's attack:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-1.html
2. Post KHH Goku connects one hit at 19's face:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-2.html
3. Even when Post KHH Goku is hit to the ground, he manages to stop the impact before hitting it:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-4.html

He was above post-KHH Goku, but the difference wasn't nearly as big as you intend it to be. If you compare it to pre-KHH Goku and pre-absorption 19, the difference was much bigger there:
1. 19 can't evade Goku's attacks nor stop getting impacted to the ground/mountains:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-2.html
2. 19 can't connect even a single hit on Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-5.html
3. Again, 19 not being able to escape hitting the ground:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-10.html

 

[Victorious]

If #19 post absorption was above initial sick SSJ Goku, how do you explain that?
1. Post KHH Goku dodges 19's attack:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-1.html
2. Post KHH Goku connects one hit at 19's face:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-2.html
3. Even when Post KHH Goku is hit to the ground, he manages to stop the impact before hitting it:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-148-index-2-page-4.html

He was above post-KHH Goku, but the difference wasn't nearly as big as you intend it to be. If you compare it to pre-KHH Goku and pre-absorption 19, the difference was much bigger there:
1. 19 can't evade Goku's attacks nor stop getting impacted to the ground/mountains:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-2.html
2. 19 can't connect even a single hit on Goku:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-5.html
3. Again, 19 not being able to escape hitting the ground:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-147-index-2-page-10.html

well that would just mean initial sick Goku's gap > #19 pre is bigger than #19 post gap > post KHH even sicker Goku. But that doesn't mean #19 post hadent surpassed initial sick Goku. Neither of those gaps were rivals gaps.

#19 post > initial sick Goku > post KHH even sicker Goku > #19 pre.

Initial sick Goku definitely couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre....so #19 after absorbing the Kamehameha wave and base Goku on the ground should definitely have surpassed initial sick Goku. A 30% power increase would warrant that. I dont think hes way stronger but he can definitely be stronger. Its not that far of a stretch to think #19 increased his power some 30% during his fight with Goku and surpassed Goku's initial sick power.

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Something like that works

 

[ahill1]

What about #19 post vs #20 post?

 

[Victorious]

What the fuck does any of the Vegeta vs #18 fight have to do with Vegeta vs #19 post? I dont think #18 can one or two shot SSJ Vegeta nor do i think SSJ Vegeta can one or two shot Android #19 post.

Firstly, no one is saying anything about #18 being able to two shot Vegeta, the one that was two-shotted was SSJ Trunks.
The thing is, SSJ Trunks was much stronger than ill SSJ Goku when Piccolo described him as weak, and post-absoprtion 19 was just a tad stronger than a Goku that was even weaker than that.
Vegeta had in fact the same strength as 18 when serious and non weakened.

The rest of ur post is pure asspull conjecture that makes no sense. None of the Goku vs 19 fight means anything in terms of Vegeta's being able to one shot 19 post.

Well, it's as much as an aspull conjecture as saying that Kid Bu was stronger than Mutenroshi. Do we see Kid Bu beating Mutenroshi? No, we never see it. But we see Kid Bu beating someone (SSJ 2 Vegeta) that could beat Mutenroshi (well, I don't think I need to prove SSJ 2 Vegeta was above Mutenroshi, but seeing how you can't see the relation between SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks, Piccolo's comment on ill SSJ Goku and #19, maybe even that will be an "asspull" to you) so it can be "asspulled" that Kid Bu was above Mutenroshi as well.
Now we see Trunks being 2 shot by the androids, and we also see Trunks being much weaker than the weakened Vegeta that was trashed by 18. We also know that #19 wasn't much above post-KHH ill Goku, and we know that post-KHH ill Goku was clearly weaker than pre-KHH ill Goku when Piccolo already said that he was weak compared to what should be expected from a SSJ.

I know you still won't see any relation in those facts, but believe me, it clearly exists.

Yes i know SSJ Future Trunks is much stronger than sick SSJ Goku. But nothing in the fight with #17 and #18 proves SSJ Vegeta could one shot #19 post u incoherent retard. The gap #17 has on SSJ Future Trunks is bigger than the gap SSJ Vegeta has on #19 post. Hence why Future Trunks got two shotted and #19 did not. Thats all there is too it.

 

[Victorious]

What about #19 post vs #20 post?

I think #19 post is slightly stronger than #20 post. But Piccolo is still considerably above #19 post. Remember after Goku had been braten and before Vegeta revealed he had SSJ Krillin said they should run away and Piccolo stood tall. Which means Piccolo could probably beat #19 post and #20 pre at the same time.

 

[ahill1]

I think the androids' natural durability and lack of pain takes a role in it as well. Ten noted #19's lack of pain helped him to get up after sick Goku's beatdown.

 

[ahill1]

What about #19 post vs #20 post?

I think #19 post is slightly stronger than #20 post. But Piccolo is still considerably above #19 post. Remember after Goku had been braten and before Vegeta revealed he had SSJ Krillin said they should run away and Piccolo stood tall. Which means Piccolo could probably beat #19 post and #20 pre at the same time.

I mainly think #20 post is > #19 post due to Vegeta outright dismissing #19 as having the same fearsome strength Trunks told them the androids would have, while #20's post absorptions strength was still let in doubt by Piccolo.

 

[freezamite]

well that would just mean initial sick Goku's gap > #19 pre is bigger than #19 post gap > post KHH even sicker Goku. But that doesn't mean #19 post hadent surpassed initial sick Goku. Neither of those gaps were rivals gaps.

True, it doesn't forcibly mean it, but we know the power base Goku had was below minimal once 19 started to absorb his energy, so even if this was true, the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku had to be below minimal.

#19 post > initial sick Goku > post KHH even sicker Goku > #19 pre.

Initial sick Goku definitely couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre....so #19 after absorbing the Kamehameha wave and base Goku on the ground should definitely have surpassed initial sick Goku.

It's true that initial sick Goku couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre, but don't forget that he was already in pain there which further diminished his performance. So Piccolo's comment on Goku's weakness was about Goku's Ki, but at that point he still didn't know Goku was in pain which is something that can't be sensed.

A 30% power increase would warrant that. I dont think hes way stronger but he can definitely be stronger. Its not that far of a stretch to think #19 increased his power some 30% during his fight with Goku and surpassed Goku's initial sick power.

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Something like that works

It doesn't. With a difference like that, 19 post KHH would've one shotted Goku post KHH. At best, those would be the numbers:
Initial Goku: 100
Initial 19: 80 (the difference can be huge because Goku starts rushing the fight when he feels sick, but then his power is already diminishing while the pain he suffers is only getting bigger, and we know the pain affects at least the offensive capacity of a fighter -speed and strength- even if not the defence).
Post KHH Goku: 85
Post KHH Absorption 19: 90
Post base Absorption 19: 92-93 (I insist, at best)

post KHH Goku was really close to post absorption 19, and the energy Goku had left when 19 absorbed him again was minimal (19 didn't even absorb his SSJ energy because Goku had already regressed at his base state). In fact, the energy 19 could've absorbed from sick base Goku was probably lost with Vegeta's kick to the face entrance.

Yes i know SSJ Future Trunks is much stronger than sick SSJ Goku. But nothing in the fight with #17 and #18 proves SSJ Vegeta could one shot #19 post u incoherent retard. The gap #17 has on SSJ Future Trunks is bigger than the gap SSJ Vegeta has on #19 post.

But the thing is that the gap #17 had on #18 was never described as something big. #17 had an advantage, but for how #16 and Cell spoke they were much closer than you need it to be.
So in the chain:
SSJ Trunks < 18/SSJ Vegeta < 17, the biggest gap (by far) was the one between SSJ Trunks and 18/SSJ Vegeta.

Now, post absorption 19 was at best close to sick SSJ Goku, and that Goku was described as WEAK compared to any regular SSJ. I don't know if you get what that means, but in DB when someone is described as WEAK it means he has no chance on winning against the stronger foe he is compared with.
Now, what you're saying is that 18 compared to 17 was WEAK in DB terms, but that's not how the difference between those androids was described at all. Not only that, but for SSJ Vegeta not being able to one-shot 19 that means that the difference between 17 and 18 should be (according to you) considerably bigger than the difference between sick SSJ Goku and a regular SSJ. Are you really saying you can't see the problem in this reasoning?

 

[Victorious]

True, it doesn't forcibly mean it, but we know the power base Goku had was below minimal once 19 started to absorb his energy, so even if this was true, the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku had to be below minimal.

How do we know the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku [initial] was minimal? We don't..u just made that up. I mean I do think it's not that big..and I agree #19 would have only gotten a few percent stronger by absorbing base Goku. But there's nothing wrong with this chain.

#19 Post base Goku > #19 post KHH absorbtion > SSJ Sick Goku [initial]

#19 got most of his energy increase by absorbing the Kamehameha

It's true that initial sick Goku couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre, but don't forget that he was already in pain there which further diminished his performance. So Piccolo's comment on Goku's weakness was about Goku's Ki, but at that point he still didn't know Goku was in pain which is something that can't be sensed.[/qoute]

So that means what for your argument that Vegeta can one shot #19 post? I means nothing..SSJ Vegeta never showed himself capable of such feats.

A 30% power increase would warrant that. I dont think hes way stronger but he can definitely be stronger. Its not that far of a stretch to think #19 increased his power some 30% during his fight with Goku and surpassed Goku's initial sick power.

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Something like that works

It doesn't. With a difference like that, 19 post KHH would've one shotted Goku post KHH. At best, those would be the numbers:
Initial Goku: 100
Initial 19: 80 (the difference can be huge because Goku starts rushing the fight when he feels sick, but then his power is already diminishing while the pain he suffers is only getting bigger, and we know the pain affects at least the offensive capacity of a fighter -speed and strength- even if not the defence).
Post KHH Goku: 85
Post KHH Absorption 19: 90
Post base Absorption 19: 92-93 (I insist, at best)

post KHH Goku was really close to post absorption 19, and the energy Goku had left when 19 absorbed him again was minimal (19 didn't even absorb his SSJ energy because Goku had already regressed at his base state). In fact, the energy 19 could've absorbed from sick base Goku was probably lost with Vegeta's kick to the face entrance.

You really are an imbecile...your numbers contradict your own argument and make no deductive sense. You say #19 [post KHH absorption] would have one shotted SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] with my gaps..but I only have an 18% difference between #19 [post KHH absorption] and SSJ sick Goku [post KHH], while I have a #25% difference between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. For me...NEITHER GAPS ARE ONE SHOT. The gap SSJ sick Goku [initial] had on #19 [pre] is bigger than the gap #19 [post KHH absorption] had on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] and I STILL have #19 [post absorptions] stronger than SSJ sick Goku [initial]. It all works fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my numbers..they make total sense.

You on the other hand argue that my 18% gap means #19 [post KHH absorbtion] must one shot post KHH Goku, but you then have a 20% gap between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. Initial SSJ sick Goku COULD NOT ONE SHOT #19 pre. So #19 [post KHH absorption] having a smaller gap than that on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] mean's he's not one shotting him. You contradict yourself.

Also, u have a measly 5% difference between #19 [post KHH absorption] and SSJ sick Goku [post KHH]. Thats ridiculous. Goku is not that close. Sure he dodged a few punches but he got his ass kicked.

Now, post absorption 19 was at best close to sick SSJ Goku,

Just cause Goku dodged a punch doesnt mean Goku was close. Unless you think Tenshinhan or Krillin were close to Nappa,lol. Goku [post KHH] is clearly not a rival to #19 [post KHH absorbtion]. He got his ass kicked.

and that Goku was described as WEAK compared to any regular SSJ

.

I agree..even initial sick Goku is much weaker than Android arc Future Trunks or Vegeta..or a hypothetical healthy Goku.

Not only that, but for SSJ Vegeta not being able to one-shot 19 that means that the difference between 17 and 18 should be (according to you) considerably bigger than the difference between sick SSJ Goku and a regular SSJ. Are you really saying you can't see the problem in this reasoning?

Uhh No, it means none of that. My numbers don't imply that at all. All it means is that #17's gap on SSJ Future Trunks is bigger than SSJ Vegeta's gap on #19 post. Which it is because Future Trunks was one shotted by #17, while #19 [post Goku] was not one shotted by SSJ Vegeta.

 

[Victorious]

True, it doesn't forcibly mean it, but we know the power base Goku had was below minimal once 19 started to absorb his energy, so even if this was true, the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku had to be below minimal.

How do we know the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku [initial] was minimal? We don't..u just made that up. I mean I do think it's not that big..and I agree #19 would have only gotten a few percent stronger by absorbing base Goku. But there's nothing wrong with this chain.

#19 Post base Goku > #19 post KHH absorbtion > SSJ Sick Goku [initial]

#19 got most of his energy increase by absorbing the Kamehameha

It's true that initial sick Goku couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre, but don't forget that he was already in pain there which further diminished his performance. So Piccolo's comment on Goku's weakness was about Goku's Ki, but at that point he still didn't know Goku was in pain which is something that can't be sensed.

So that means what for your argument that Vegeta can one shot #19 post? I means nothing..SSJ Vegeta never showed himself capable of such feats.

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Something like that works

It doesn't. With a difference like that, 19 post KHH would've one shotted Goku post KHH. At best, those would be the numbers:
Initial Goku: 100
Initial 19: 80 (the difference can be huge because Goku starts rushing the fight when he feels sick, but then his power is already diminishing while the pain he suffers is only getting bigger, and we know the pain affects at least the offensive capacity of a fighter -speed and strength- even if not the defence).
Post KHH Goku: 85
Post KHH Absorption 19: 90
Post base Absorption 19: 92-93 (I insist, at best)

post KHH Goku was really close to post absorption 19, and the energy Goku had left when 19 absorbed him again was minimal (19 didn't even absorb his SSJ energy because Goku had already regressed at his base state). In fact, the energy 19 could've absorbed from sick base Goku was probably lost with Vegeta's kick to the face entrance.

You really are an imbecile...your numbers contradict your own argument and make no deductive sense. You say #19 [post KHH absorption] would have one shotted SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] with my gaps..but I only have an 18% difference between #19 [post KHH absorption] and SSJ sick Goku [post KHH], while I have a #25% difference between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. For me...NEITHER GAPS ARE ONE SHOT. The gap SSJ sick Goku [initial] had on #19 [pre] is bigger than the gap #19 [post KHH absorption] had on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] and I STILL have #19 [post absorptions] stronger than SSJ sick Goku [initial]. It all works fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my numbers..they make total sense.

You on the other hand argue that my 18% gap means #19 [post KHH absorbtion] must one shot post KHH Goku, but you then have a 20% gap between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. Initial SSJ sick Goku COULD NOT ONE SHOT #19 pre. So #19 [post KHH absorption] having a smaller gap than that on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] mean's he's not one shotting him. You contradict yourself. Conclusion? Your numbers and arguments are shit.

Now, post absorption 19 was at best close to sick SSJ Goku,

Just cause Goku dodged a punch doesnt mean Goku was close. Unless you think Tenshinhan or Krillin were close to Nappa,lol. Goku [post KHH] is clearly not a rival to #19 [post KHH absorbtion]. He got his ass kicked.

and that Goku was described as WEAK compared to any regular SSJ

.

I agree..even initial sick Goku is much weaker than Android arc Future Trunks or Vegeta..or a hypothetical healthy Goku.

Not only that, but for SSJ Vegeta not being able to one-shot 19 that means that the difference between 17 and 18 should be (according to you) considerably bigger than the difference between sick SSJ Goku and a regular SSJ. Are you really saying you can't see the problem in this reasoning?

Uhh No, it means none of that. My numbers don't imply that at all. All it means is that #17's gap on SSJ Future Trunks is bigger than SSJ Vegeta's gap on #19 post. Which it is because Future Trunks was one shotted by #17 and #19 [post Goku] was not one shotted by SSJ Vegeta.

 

[Victorious]

You kill brain cells.

 

[freezamite]

How do we know the difference between 19 post and SSJ sick Goku [initial] was minimal? We don't..u just made that up. I mean I do think it's not that big..and I agree #19 would have only gotten a few percent stronger by absorbing base Goku. But there's nothing wrong with this chain.

If the difference between post-KHH Goku and 19 wasn't big, and the energy he gained from base Goku was minimal (Goku lost his SSJ form which normally only would happen after losing consciousness, that's how weak he was at that point), he can't be stronger unless you are telling me he had other means to gain energy. #19 only absorbs energy from the Goku's KHH and from base Goku when he's already weakened a lot.

#19 Post base Goku > #19 post KHH absorbtion > SSJ Sick Goku [initial]

#19 got most of his energy increase by absorbing the Kamehameha

Are you forgetting that Goku was losing strength at a fast pace? The illness started to rapidly affect him AFTER he turned into a SSJ, which means that post-KHH Goku wasn't only as strong as pre-KHH minus the energy lost with the KHH, he was losing strength fast and the pain he felt was also more and more prominent as the fight prolonged.
In other words, the Goku that fired the KHH was already much weaker than the Goku that started to fight against 19, and he only got weaker as the time passed.

That's why I tell you that even being generous with 19's strength, he couldn't be above the sick Goku described by Piccolo, and much less above the sick Goku at the start of the fight.

So that means what for your argument that Vegeta can one shot #19 post? I means nothing..SSJ Vegeta never showed himself capable of such feats.

He showed capable of fighting 18 at her same level, so anything 18 showed he also showed it indirectly.

You really are an imbecile...your numbers contradict your own argument and make no deductive sense. You say #19 [post KHH absorption] would have one shotted SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] with my gaps..but I only have an 18% difference between #19 [post KHH absorption] and SSJ sick Goku [post KHH], while I have a #25% difference between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. For me...NEITHER GAPS ARE ONE SHOT.

Yes, to YOU those gaps are not enough to one shot someone, it happens that Gohan nearly one-shotted Raditz with 9-10% more strength, and that Vegeta one-shotted Dodoria (Vegeta didn't do any damage to him prior to the blast that erased him) with at best 20% more strength.
Look, you're not very smart, that's obvious seeing how easily you insult and how unable to understand what you're being told you are, but at least you should accept that this is not about YOU, but about what the DB manga had established prior to this fight. You're not the chosen one nor anything, reality isn't made around you, so what you think when speaking about DB, if it contradicts the DB manga, is meaningless.

Your gaps only work if we accept that your considerations are more important than what the manga tells us.

The gap SSJ sick Goku [initial] had on #19 [pre] is bigger than the gap #19 [post KHH absorption] had on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] and I STILL have #19 [post absorptions] stronger than SSJ sick Goku [initial]. It all works fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with my numbers..they make total sense.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with those numbers except that they contradict nearly every previously stated power gap in the manga. Besides that they're "perfect" LOL

You on the other hand argue that my 18% gap means #19 [post KHH absorbtion] must one shot post KHH Goku, but you then have a 20% gap between SSJ sick Goku [initial] and #19 [pre]. Initial SSJ sick Goku COULD NOT ONE SHOT #19 pre. So #19 [post KHH absorption] having a smaller gap than that on SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] mean's he's not one shotting him. You contradict yourself. Conclusion? Your numbers and arguments are shit.

Geez, it's hard to speak with someone that can't simply understand what he's told. Do you remember what I said about the pain Goku was feeling and how pain affect a fighter?
Yes, that paragraph you said "this means nothing regarding Vegeta", well, that paragraph was to justify that gap.
I'll put it here again in case you forgot:

It's true that initial sick Goku couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre, but don't forget that he was already in pain there which further diminished his performance.

See the reason I wrote this now? (No, you probably still won't see it, but at least it won't be said I haven't tried to explain it).

Just cause Goku dodged a punch doesnt mean Goku was close. Unless you think Tenshinhan or Krillin were close to Nappa,lol.

"Just" cause Goku dodged a punch, "just" cause Goku connected one punch of his, "just" cause Goku resisted 19's punches pretty well. Do you think that Krilin or Ten dodging one hit when Nappa was overconfident proves anything? Ten's arm got ripped by one of Nappa's punches, Krilin was nearly koed only by the side-effects of Nappa's attack... the difference was huge and you not seeing the difference only demonstrates how difficult it is for you to understand even the most basic things.

Goku [post KHH] is clearly not a rival to #19 [post KHH absorbtion]. He got his ass kicked.

No one said he was a rival to 19, only that the difference wasn't as big as it was between pre-KHH Goku and 19, and that was below the 10% difference that translates into complete dominance of a fight.

Uhh No, it means none of that. My numbers don't imply that at all. All it means is that #17's gap on SSJ Future Trunks is bigger than SSJ Vegeta's gap on #19 post. Which it is because Future Trunks was one shotted by #17 and #19 [post Goku] was not one shotted by SSJ Vegeta.

But you don't seem to get that SSJ Vegeta didn't one-hit kill #19 ON PURPOSE because he wanted to check how the energy absorption worked.

 

[Victorious]

If the difference between post-KHH Goku and 19 wasn't big, and the energy he gained from base Goku was minimal (Goku lost his SSJ form which normally only would happen after losing consciousness, that's how weak he was at that point), he can't be stronger unless you are telling me he had other means to gain energy. #19 only absorbs energy from the Goku's KHH and from base Goku when he's already weakened a lot.

Well here's the thing, the difference between Goku [post KHH] and Android #19 [post KHH absorption] is pretty big. Goku got his ass kicked and smacked down to base. And no plenty of times Saiyans have gone back to base before losing consciousness. Gotenks did..so Gohan after his battle with Cell. It was clear after the KHH absorbtion Goku's ki had fallen and Android #19 ki had increased and now the roles were very reversed.

Are you forgetting that Goku was losing strength at a fast pace? The illness started to rapidly affect him AFTER he turned into a SSJ, which means that post-KHH Goku wasn't only as strong as pre-KHH minus the energy lost with the KHH, he was losing strength fast and the pain he felt was also more and more prominent as the fight prolonged.
In other words, the Goku that fired the KHH was already much weaker than the Goku that started to fight against 19, and he only got weaker as the time passed.

That's why I tell you that even being generous with 19's strength, he couldn't be above the sick Goku described by Piccolo, and much less above the sick Goku at the start of the fight.

Uhh, You have Goku's drop in power roughly the same as mine.

My Numbers

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Your Numbers

Initial Goku: 100
Initial 19: 80
Post KHH Goku: 85
Post KHH Absorption 19: 90
Post base Absorption 19: 92-93 (I insist, at best)

93 to 80 is a 14% drop, 100 to 85 is a 15% drop. We have Goku losing practically the same amount of power. Shooting yourself in the foot?




The only difference is I have #19 gaining much more power from absorbing the Kamehameha. You have him gaining 12% power increase while i've got him gaining 28% power increase. U do it because you're a #19 nerfer ["I insist at best #19 can't be that strong!"] and for some reason think he can't be above initial SSJ sick Goku. But I think he had already surpassed that power. You've provided no evidence he couldn't other than a bunch of self contradictory and irrelevant BS.

So again there is nothing wrong with this chain.

SSJ Vegeta >> #19 [Post base Goku ] > #19 [post KHH absorbtion] > SSJ Sick Goku [initial] >> 19 [pre]

Yes, to YOU those gaps are not enough to one shot someone, it happens that Gohan nearly one-shotted Raditz with 9-10% more strength, and that Vegeta one-shotted Dodoria (Vegeta didn't do any damage to him prior to the blast that erased him) with at best 20% more strength.
Look, you're not very smart, that's obvious seeing how easily you insult and how unable to understand what you're being told you are, but at least you should accept that this is not about YOU, but about what the DB manga had established prior to this fight. You're not the chosen one nor anything, reality isn't made around you, so what you think when speaking about DB, if it contradicts the DB manga, is meaningless.

Your gaps only work if we accept that your considerations are more important than what the manga tells us.

My gaps are consistent...yours arent. You first say someone with an 18% gap [like my numbers for Goku post KHH vs 19 post KHH absorption] should one shot but then you say guys with 20% gap [like your numbers for initial Goku vs 19 pre] can't one shot.

I agree it's not about me or you..but at least show a consistent pattern an not randomness in your numbers. randomness = shit. Logic is based on order and structure, not random chaos.

Also, Vegeta killed Dodoria with a huge Ki blast..not a physical attack. And Gohan didn't quite one shot Raditz, and that was after Raditz had been fighting Goku and Piccolo and also had his tail grabbed.

Do you remember what I said about the pain Goku was feeling and how pain affect a fighter?
Yes, that paragraph you said "this means nothing regarding Vegeta", well, that paragraph was to justify that gap.
I'll put it here again in case you forgot:

It's true that initial sick Goku couldn't 1 or 2 shot #19 pre, but don't forget that he was already in pain there which further diminished his performance.

And you do realize Goku is still "feeling pain" not only in his fight with 19 pre KHH absorptions..but also with his post KHH performance against #19 when he got wrecked? Don't u? Again, shooting yourself in the foot. Either throw out the fight in it's entirely because Goku's heart condition makes things weird or different.....or use it in it's entirety...don't cherry pick.

Personally..I feel Goku showed no signs of pain until he grabbed his heart after he fired the KHH. If anything his performance against #19 post KHH is more 'suspect' due to pain or fatigue variables. It would nice if you weren't a biased and hypocritical idiot.

No one said he was a rival to 19, only that the difference wasn't as big as it was between pre-KHH Goku and 19, and that was below the 10% difference that translates into complete dominance of a fight.

But you have the difference between SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] and #19 [post absorbtions] very close. You gave Goku an 85 while #19 an 80. That means Goku is still 94% power of Android #19...that doesnt sound right..that is clearly a rivals gap. Goku should be well below 90% of #19 by this time. If Android #19 post KHH is 100 then Goku should be about an 85. Not 94. That's just way too close. Sure, the initial SSJ sick Goku vs #19 pre gap can be slightly bigger but neither are rivals gap. They are ass kick gaps but not quite one shot gaps.

But you don't seem to get that SSJ Vegeta didn't one-hit kill #19 ON PURPOSE because he wanted to check how the energy absorption worked

That's ur opinion but I think he just couldnt do it. He can stomp #19 post and he did..... but his non impressive tank suggests he's not quite at that level to one or two shot #19 post. That is reasonable.

There's no more evidence Vegeta could one shot #19 post than say Monster Zarbon being able to one shot 24k Vegeta in their first fight on Namek. Or any other ass kick fights where there's not a one shot [like Kaioken x 3 Goku vs 18k Vegeta on Earth].

 

[freezamite]

Okay, before answering to your post, I'd like to say I'm glad you stopped insulting me (at least until the end of your message, so I'll ignore it) so I also won't disrespect you anymore. Let's try to have a calmed discussion if possible.

Well here's the thing, the difference between Goku [post KHH] and Android #19 [post KHH absorption] is pretty big. Goku got his ass kicked and smacked down to base. And no plenty of times Saiyans have gone back to base before losing consciousness. Gotenks did..so Gohan after his battle with Cell. It was clear after the KHH absorbtion Goku's ki had fallen and Android #19 ki had increased and now the roles were very reversed.

Yes, when a saiyan's energy falls to nearly 0 he loses the SSJ form (it's right that it can happen without losing consciousness, but it's also true that it happens where their strength is really low).
Regarding Goku losing his SSJ state against 19, it was because of how much the heart disease affected it more than the difference in strength in favour of 19 (although is true that this difference was pretty big when Goku lost his SSJ form).
But post-KHH Goku (that was already much weaker than the SSJ Goku Piccolo described as "weak") was reasonably close to 19. Weaker than him, but still able to dodge, counter and resist 19's hits without even impacting against the ground.

Uhh, You have Goku's drop in power roughly the same as mine.

My Numbers

19 post base Goku : 100
19 post KHH : 98
initial sick Goku : 93
Goku post KHH : 80
19 pre : 70

Your Numbers

Initial Goku: 100
Initial 19: 80
Post KHH Goku: 85
Post KHH Absorption 19: 90
Post base Absorption 19: 92-93 (I insist, at best)

93 to 80 is a 14% drop, 100 to 85 is a 15% drop. We have Goku losing practically the same amount of power. Shooting yourself in the foot?

It could be, but have in mind that I did those gaps favouring in a "best situation for 19" way. But it's true that I probably underestimated how affected Goku was by the disease, 70 for post KHH Goku would've probably been a better approach.

The only difference is I have #19 gaining much more power from absorbing the Kamehameha. You have him gaining 12% power increase while i've got him gaining 28% power increase. U do it because you're a #19 nerfer ["I insist at best #19 can't be that strong!"] and for some reason think he can't be above initial SSJ sick Goku. But I think he had already surpassed that power. You've provided no evidence he couldn't other than a bunch of self contradictory and irrelevant BS.

And as I've said, those gaps are impossible because 19 would've one shoted Goku. 19 wasn't in huge pains like Goku, his strength wasn't conditioned by that so a difference as huge as you imply would mean Goku would've been insta-killed.

My gaps are consistent...yours arent. You first say someone with an 18% gap [like my numbers for Goku post KHH vs 19 post KHH absorption] should one shot but then you say guys with 20% gap [like your numbers for initial Goku vs 19 pre] can't one shot.

I agree it's not about me or you..but at least show a consistent pattern an not randomness in your numbers. randomness = shit. Logic is based on order and structure, not random chaos.

Well, as I've explained to you, Goku was in great pains besides him being weak from the illness. Pain means less usable strength (we have dozens of examples of that), and even if in normal situations that pain leaves after a few seconds, in Goku's case the pain only increased more and more.

Also, Vegeta killed Dodoria with a huge Ki blast..not a physical attack. And Gohan didn't quite one shot Raditz, and that was after Raditz had been fighting Goku and Piccolo and also had his tail grabbed.

One shotting means being killed in one attack, it doesn't has to be a single random punch. And regarding Raditz, neither Goku nor Piccolo had been able to damage him, and as soon as Goku left his tail he recovered all his strength (that's how it worked with Goku, no reason to think Raditz was different).

And you do realize Goku is still "feeling pain" not only in his fight with 19 pre KHH absorptions..but also with his post KHH performance against #19 when he got wrecked? Don't u? Again, shooting yourself in the foot. Either throw out the fight in it's entirely because Goku's heart condition makes things weird or different.....or use it in it's entirety...don't cherry pick.

I'm not cherripicking here, in fact, Goku having a greater pain after the KHH means that the increase in strength of 19 had to be even smaller. Think about it, if Goku's performance is affected by the pain and he was feeling more pain as the fight continued, and of course 19s performance against Goku post-KHH was what it was, that means that the difference wasn't as big as you imply.

Personally..I feel Goku showed no signs of pain until he grabbed his heart after he fired the KHH. If anything his performance against #19 post KHH is more 'suspect' due to pain or fatigue variables. It would nice if you weren't a biased and hypocritical idiot.

Goku was affected by the illness even before turning into a SSJ. The pain increased as the fight progressed, and when he grabbed his heart he was at a point where that pain was unbearable, that doesn't mean Goku wasn't feeling it from before (he in fact was rushing the fight for a reason).
Try understanding what you're being told before insulting.

But you have the difference between SSJ sick Goku [post KHH] and #19 [post absorbtions] very close. You gave Goku an 85 while #19 an 80. That means Goku is still 94% power of Android #19...that doesnt sound right..that is clearly a rivals gap.

10% means being destroyed if hit at full strength. If 5% seems to low for you, then put it at 7% but I think this 7% would be what Goku showed against 19 pre absorptions (not one hit destroying him, but him being able to completely dominate). Give or take 1%, that was the difference between them.

That's ur opinion but I think he just couldnt do it. He can stomp #19 post and he did..... but his non impressive tank suggests he's not quite at that level to one or two shot #19 post. That is reasonable.

His non impressive tank could be him not going at full power, for example, because he knew how weak those androids were.

There's no more evidence Vegeta could one shot #19 post than say Monster Zarbon being able to one shot 24k Vegeta in their first fight on Namek. Or any other ass kick fights where there's not a one shot [like Kaioken x 3 Goku vs 18k Vegeta on Earth].

None of those had any reason to not go all out, and in none of those examples you saw an equivalent character two shotting a much stronger foe (18 with SSJ Trunks).

 

[Victorious]

It could be, but have in mind that I did those gaps favouring in a "best situation for 19" way. But it's true that I probably underestimated how affected Goku was by the disease, 70 for post KHH Goku would've probably been a better approach

uhh. So now Goku post KHH u have at 70 compared to Android #19 post's 90. Thats a bigger gap than my Android #19 post gap on post KHH Goku. Yet u complain that my numbers imply Goku should be one shotted. U Are a complete self contradictory fucktard. This is total proof u are a complete waste of time. U make posts but dont think about it because u are dense and unreasonable and are only interested in trying to win a debate but not learn nor use reason and logic.

And as I've said, those gaps are impossible because 19 would've one shoted Goku. 19 wasn't in huge pains like Goku, his strength wasn't conditioned by that so a difference as huge as you imply would mean Goku would've been insta-killed.

Why dont u tell urself that too..that Goku would have been insta killed. Since ur new numbers imply it more than mine.

Secondly we have known events where guys with bigger gaps dont get insta killed. I had #19 post vs Goku post KHH gap at 18%. And i think its somewhere between 15-18%. KKx3 Goku vs Vegeta was a 25% gap. Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta is around 15-18% or so. So yeah there is no proof Goku wouldve been insta killed or two shotted with the type of gap i gave them. Nor is there any proof #19 hadnt surpassed SSJ sick Goku.

Im not going to address u anymore till u make a power list that isnt contradictory.

 

[p123]

Vic, let me see what you got for the Androids and Z Team. Include all variations of 19 and Goku. Also, stop falling for this troll's nonsense dude, you are too old to be arguing with 12 year olds man. Just put him as a foe and poof, his posts disappear. It's great.

 

[Victorious]

Vic, let me see what you got for the Androids and Z Team. Include all variations of 19 and Goku. Also, stop falling for this troll's nonsense dude, you are too old to be arguing with 12 year olds man. Just put him as a foe and poof, his posts disappear. It's great.

I agree he's a total idiot or a troll.

 

[p123]

Well, he's making you look like the fool, I hope you know that. Hook, line and sinker. You are taking the bait big time. Block that fool and have normal discussions. I'm not getting suckered into discussions that weren't even discussion worthy on Neo in fucking 2010. FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

Anyway, continue Vic.

I want to debate the Androids levels, I think you will be proven wrong here. Show me what you got. From 19 Pre to 17/Kamiccolo.

 

[freezamite]

uhh. So now Goku post KHH u have at 70 compared to Android #19 post's 90. Thats a bigger gap than my Android #19 post gap on post KHH Goku. Yet u complain that my numbers imply Goku should be one shotted. U Are a complete self contradictory fucktard. This is total proof u are a complete waste of time. U make posts but dont think about it because u are dense and unreasonable and are only interested in trying to win a debate but not learn nor use reason and logic.

You still don't get it do you? I mean, you don't seem very good at understanding what you're being told.
Firstly, that list I made was a "best possible scenario for 19", it wasn't even what I was thinking about that scene, just a "best scenario for 19" list considering Goku's constant weakening and the low difference between him and post-KHH Goku.
Of course, if I admit that in that list I may have given too much strength to Goku, and I say that the gaps have to be of a concrete size, if I retconn a number of that list the whole list has to be retconned in the same way to make sense.
Look, since speaking at you as if you were intelligent isn't a good method, I'll put here a list that better represents what I think about that fight specifying in case of Goku both his real Ki, and the offensive capacity he had due to the pain he was feeling:

- Ill SSJ Goku (start of the fight, feels bad but still not rushing it so he isn't giving it his all): 100 KI, 95 effective maximum offensive capacity, 87 strength Goku is using to fight 19 without going all out
- Initial 19: 80 KI
- Ill SSJ Goku (when Piccolo describes him as being weak, rushing the fight and already feeling the pain): 90 KI, 77 effective offensive capacity
19 while being beaten by Goku (when Piccolo describes Goku as being too weak): 70
- Ill SSJ Goku post KHH (he feels really bad): 85, 65 effective offensive capacity (his hit does nothing to 19 even if he has the speed to dodge or connect it and the endurance to resist 19's hits)
- 19 post-KHH: 85
- 19 post-KHH post-base Goku: 87

The thing is (and this is what you seem unable to understand) that Trunks SSJ (the weakest SSJ in that saga) had a power of at least 140. And he was two shotted by 17 and 18, and SSJ Vegeta had the same power as 18. Vegeta didn't kill 19 like he didn't kill Goku in the earth while having more than double his strength, he wanted to check how the androids absorbed the energy first. I know this is pretty difficult to grasp for you, but try to understand it and even if you won't still be able to do it, you'll at least develop a semblance of a functional neuron in the process :rape

Why dont u tell urself that too..that Goku would have been insta killed. Since ur new numbers imply it more than mine.

My "new" numbers assumed you were smart enough to retconn the whole list accordingly considering I retconned one part of it and I was saying the gaps simply couldn't be any bigger because of how the manga worked. Look at my new list, this isn't made in a "best scenario for 19" so it won't have the same contradictions, and you may be even able to gasp what I'm trying to tell you.

Secondly we have known events where guys with bigger gaps dont get insta killed. I had #19 post vs Goku post KHH gap at 18%. And i think its somewhere between 15-18%. KKx3 Goku vs Vegeta was a 25% gap. Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta is around 15-18% or so. So yeah there is no proof Goku wouldve been insta killed or two shotted with the type of gap i gave them. Nor is there any proof #19 hadnt surpassed SSJ sick Goku.

Im not going to address u anymore till u make a power list that isnt contradictory.

No, KKx3 Goku was nowhere close to be 25% stronger than Vegeta. Not only it's possible that Vegeta had above 18k units (Freezer said Vegeta was 18K the last time they saw him, but Vegeta had been fighting in the frontline for a long time so his fight in the earth wasn't the only one that increased his strength even if it was the one that increased it more), but Goku had already lost some energy when he activated the KKx3 (he was beaten by Vegeta) and the KKx3 was too much for him which also affected his performance (he himself admits he was in pain because of the KKx3).
Now, stop insulting people, and I'll say even more, stop insulting more intelligent people. You're not very smart, admit it, and be nice to the smarter guys

 

[Victorious]

You still don't get it do you? I mean, you don't seem very good at understanding what you're being told.
Firstly, that list I made was a "best possible scenario for 19", it wasn't even what I was thinking about that scene, just a "best scenario for 19" list considering Goku's constant weakening and the low difference between him and post-KHH Goku.
Of course, if I admit that in that list I may have given too much strength to Goku, and I say that the gaps have to be of a concrete size, if I retconn a number of that list the whole list has to be retconned in the same way to make sense.
Look, since speaking at you as if you were intelligent isn't a good method, I'll put here a list that better represents what I think about that fight specifying in case of Goku both his real Ki, and the offensive capacity he had due to the pain he was feeling:

OK u goofed..moving on.

- Ill SSJ Goku : 100 KI, 95 effective maximum offensive capacity, 87 strength Goku is using to fight 19 without going all out
- Initial 19: 80 KI

Why is Goku's strength and maximum fighting not the same as his ki? Are you saying he's off balance? That was never implied at all.

and SSJ Vegeta had the same power as 18.

LMAO.

Vegeta along with the others was stated to be helpless against #18 on several occassions.

Chapter: 359 (DBZ 165), P2.1, P3.1
Context: talking about the 3 androids being after Goku
Bulma: “Hm~ph, couldn’t you all just gang up on those guys?!”
Trunks: “You’ve got to be kidding. Father, myself, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan all went at them and were helpless.”
Bulma: “Huh, so they’re that incredible…”

Chapter: 376 (DBZ 182), P13.6
Context: as Vegeta challenges Cell
No.18: “[Vegeta]’s a damn fool…! Does he think that someone who was helpless against me could do anything against Cell the way he is now…?!”

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