Post your 3 year gap numbers

[Pyro]

180k Goku is useless against Freeza. 30k Krillmaster isn't.

Get with the program.

 

[GSM123]

180k Goku is useless against Freeza. 30k Krillmaster isn't.

Get with the program.

Chapter: 290 (DBZ 96), P13.2
Context: after Goku says Vegeta can’t kill him, Gohan, and Kuririn
Vegeta: “Well, he’s right. There’s the matter of the dragonballs, and more than anything I need your power to fight Freeza…particularly Kakarot’s…”



Funny thing is, he valorizes Goku's 180k power more than Kuririn and Gohan's powers. And I thought you would side with me here, KP?

We saw how Freeza tanked Vegeta's attack while being aware of Vegeta's presence. Then Freeza being aware that Kuririn and Gohan will be partaking in the battle, I see no reason to think off guards attacks would matter that much.

It's not about just knowing, it's about being focused. Nappa was aware of Kuririn's presence and still got ragdolled 1v1.

If Freeza is focused on Kuririn and Gohan sneaking on him, he'll have his guard open for the powerful Vegeta to hurt him badly. Try to think of it as a boxing match were a fly comes out of nowhere and starts taking your attention.

Even on Vegeta's blast's case, Freeza still bothered to look back to Vegeta. Turning your face to look at something else in the middle of a fight is giving a HUGE opening.

[mention]UltimateGohkan[/mention] Who said Kuririn is going to directly fight Freeza? That's Vegeta's part. Kuririn just has to do something like this:

Spoiler

Is it that hard?

 

[Pyro]

I'm with you. You're 100% correct.

 

[GSM123]

Not 100% enough when Gero implies they’re stronger than Freeza

 

[Ultimate Cell]

180k Goku is useless against Freeza. 30k Krillmaster isn't.

Get with the program.

Chapter: 290 (DBZ 96), P13.2
Context: after Goku says Vegeta can’t kill him, Gohan, and Kuririn
Vegeta: “Well, he’s right. There’s the matter of the dragonballs, and more than anything I need your power to fight Freeza…particularly Kakarot’s…”



Funny thing is, he valorizes Goku's 180k power more than Kuririn and Gohan's powers. And I thought you would side with me here, KP?

We saw how Freeza tanked Vegeta's attack while being aware of Vegeta's presence. Then Freeza being aware that Kuririn and Gohan will be partaking in the battle, I see no reason to think off guards attacks would matter that much.

It's not about just knowing, it's about being focused. Nappa was aware of Kuririn's presence and still got ragdolled 1v1.

If Freeza is focused on Kuririn and Gohan sneaking on him, he'll have his guard open for the powerful Vegeta to hurt him badly. Try to think of it as a boxing match were a fly comes out of nowhere and starts taking your attention.

Even on Vegeta's blast's case, Freeza still bothered to look back to Vegeta. Turning your face to look at something else in the middle of a fight is giving a HUGE opening.

@UltimateGohkan Who said Kuririn is going to directly fight Freeza? That's Vegeta's part. Kuririn just has to do something like this:

Spoiler

Is it that hard?

And yet later he thinks Krillin and Gohan are useful against Frieza, so that voids the quote Vegeta makes about Goku being the only one useful against Freiza. Dont Forget Krillin and Gohan powerl evel were rising. Also that example is wrong. Why the hell would a boxer be distracted by a fucking fly when theirs an another boxer whom would be a much bigger threat? Thats shitty logic. Obviously A boxer would ignore the fly and focus on his main opponent. What the hell is a fly gonna do to a boxer anyways? And you still havent explained your reasoning for why The humans made ZERO gainz during the training for the androids. Why would they even train if they were making zero gainz at all?

 

[GSM123]

And yet later he thinks Krillin and Gohan are useful against Frieza, so that voids the quote Vegeta makes about Goku being the only one useful against Freiza. Dont Forget Krillin and Gohan powerl evel were rising. Also that example is wrong. Why the hell would a boxer be distracted by a fucking fly when theirs an another boxer whom would be a much bigger threat? Thats shitty logic. Obviously A boxer would ignore the fly and focus on his main opponent. What the hell is a fly gonna do to a boxer anyways? And you still havent explained your reasoning for why The humans made ZERO gainz during the training for the androids. Why would they even train if they were making zero gainz at all?

You're repeating yourself here, again. "Useful" does not equates "powerful". Or do you think those two are any close in power?

Spoiler

Rising power doesn't mean they'll be getting multiple times stronger in a matter of minutes.

I meant something like a fly flying right on his face. That stuff is hella annoying and distractive.

I think they did little to no gains because of their conditions. Kaio described his training regiment as "1,000 years of Earth training", so naturally training 3 years wouldn't amount to shit. On Kuririn's case, he had his dormant power drawn out, there's no more power for him to gain.
Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P2.4
Kaio: “Training here on this planet with me for 158 days…is as valuable as you training several thousand years on Earth.”
Getting stronger is not the only outcome of training, they can be honing their techniques as shown. This is shown to be the case with Tenshinhan, who developed the Shin Kikoho over the course of the years.

 

[ahill]

180k Goku is useless against Freeza. 30k Krillmaster isn't.

Get with the program.

Chapter: 290 (DBZ 96), P13.2
Context: after Goku says Vegeta can’t kill him, Gohan, and Kuririn
Vegeta: “Well, he’s right. There’s the matter of the dragonballs, and more than anything I need your power to fight Freeza…particularly Kakarot’s…”



Funny thing is, he valorizes Goku's 180k power more than Kuririn and Gohan's powers. And I thought you would side with me here, KP?

We saw how Freeza tanked Vegeta's attack while being aware of Vegeta's presence. Then Freeza being aware that Kuririn and Gohan will be partaking in the battle, I see no reason to think off guards attacks would matter that much.

It's not about just knowing, it's about being focused. Nappa was aware of Kuririn's presence and still got ragdolled 1v1.

If Freeza is focused on Kuririn and Gohan sneaking on him, he'll have his guard open for the powerful Vegeta to hurt him badly. Try to think of it as a boxing match were a fly comes out of nowhere and starts taking your attention.

Even on Vegeta's blast's case, Freeza still bothered to look back to Vegeta. Turning your face to look at something else in the middle of a fight is giving a HUGE opening.

@UltimateGohkan Who said Kuririn is going to directly fight Freeza? That's Vegeta's part. Kuririn just has to do something like this:

Spoiler

Is it that hard?

But Kuririn wasn't that far away from the level Nappa was outputting to clown the Z fighters (not 30k -- Freeza levels of difference)... so it stands a reason the attack would still work somewhat on him even when he was aware about Kuririn's presence. Plus, it didn't do much to him, as he quickly recovered from such attacks and weren't the Kienzan Kuririn wouldn't have aided much.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]ahill1[/mention] still a bigger than than Vegeta and 2nd form Freeza, which was the example you brought up to argue

It doesn't even need to do any damage. Unless you're trying to tell me Vegeta is going to sit on the sidelines and let Kuririn fight Freeza alone. Kuririn is just an aid here.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

And yet later he thinks Krillin and Gohan are useful against Frieza, so that voids the quote Vegeta makes about Goku being the only one useful against Freiza. Dont Forget Krillin and Gohan powerl evel were rising. Also that example is wrong. Why the hell would a boxer be distracted by a fucking fly when theirs an another boxer whom would be a much bigger threat? Thats shitty logic. Obviously A boxer would ignore the fly and focus on his main opponent. What the hell is a fly gonna do to a boxer anyways? And you still havent explained your reasoning for why The humans made ZERO gainz during the training for the androids. Why would they even train if they were making zero gainz at all?

You're repeating yourself here, again. "Useful" does not equates "powerful". Or do you think those two are any close in power?

Spoiler

Rising power doesn't mean they'll be getting multiple times stronger in a matter of minutes.

I meant something like a fly flying right on his face. That stuff is hella annoying and distractive.

I think they did little to no gains because of their conditions. Kaio described his training regiment as "1,000 years of Earth training", so naturally training 3 years wouldn't amount to shit. On Kuririn's case, he had his dormant power drawn out, there's no more power for him to gain.
Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P2.4
Kaio: “Training here on this planet with me for 158 days…is as valuable as you training several thousand years on Earth.”
Getting stronger is not the only outcome of training, they can be honing their techniques as shown. This is shown to be the case with Tenshinhan, who developed the Shin Kikoho over the course of the years.

You think theirs any consistency with training when their isnt. Piccolo sat on Kaios planet and did nothing but mediate and yet his still strong. Krillin would have stopped training after he noticed he was yielding zero gainz. Krillin and Gohan would have been useless against 1st form frieza and Vegeta would have never bothered to bring up the idea of fighting together. And inb4 you say Krillin can just use the kiezan against Frieza like 2nd form then you're wrong. 2nd form freiza got hit because 1. he cant sense ki. 2. he thought krillin died, and 3. He was busy torturing Gohan .And after he noticed Krillin, Krillin used a shit ton of Kienzans on him that Frieza was able to dodge. Their is a correlation between being useful and being powerful in a fight. 530K Frieza outclasses 30k Krillin and Gohan in speed, strength and durability that even their special techniques would been limited severely.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]UltimateGohkan[/mention] So I'm wrong to assume something is logical?

PIccolo did ask for harsher training than Goku, for that matter.

1st form Freeza can't sense Ki either, and Freeza would be even busier going toe to toe with Vegeta. And it's not even just the Kienzan, Kuririn can do literally anything that was done in the scans I've posted.

There isn't a correlation. Power isn't everything.

Yes, he does outclasses Kuririn by several times. He doesn't outclasses Vegeta however, nor is Kuririn going to grapple with Freeza. He just needs to do this:

Spoiler

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta's blast into 2nd Form Freeza's back should prove to us how useful an off guard attack will be on someone so powerful, and Vegeta was far closer to Freeza comparatively to Krillin and 1st Freeza. Freeza is aware that Krillin is in the fight, so he wont be off guard. He is so inconceivably fast compared to Krillin that landing a Kienzan would be impossible. Krillin wouldnt be able to track him. Also Vegeta is clearly below Freeza as well, so it's unlikely he'd have Freeza on the ropes - allowing Krillin to land an attack. Someone that low is simply useless in this fight.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

@UltimateGohkan So I'm wrong to assume something is logical?

PIccolo did ask for harsher training than Goku, for that matter.

1st form Freeza can't sense Ki either, and Freeza would be even busier going toe to toe with Vegeta. And it's not even just the Kienzan, Kuririn can do literally anything that was done in the scans I've posted.

There isn't a correlation. Power isn't everything.

Yes, he does outclasses Kuririn by several times. He doesn't outclasses Vegeta however, nor is Kuririn going to grapple with Freeza. He just needs to do this:

Spoiler

You're wrong because DBZ isnt logical in any ways. Its an anime show that follows it own damn rule. Toriyama doesnt give a shit about consistency and makes retcons to his own needs like the 19/20 retcon in the android saga. Also do you think Frieza have some sort attention problem that he can't concentrate on one thing? In that pic he was already humilated by goku and gone off the deep end. He wanted to destroy the planet. Piccolo asked for harsher training but he only trained for only several day while Goku did a year and yet piccolo get so much stronger. Training is inconsistent, theirs not some sort of system where " Oh he trains for this amount time and this amount of pressure so using calculations he ends up this amount of times strong" Its determined by plot. Oh and you still havent aswered why Krillin and the humans would even bothered to train for the androids if they were making zero gainz.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Vegeta was expecting to fight a transformed Freeza when he could barely keep-up with 1st form Freeza. Vegeta knew he'd need the other two's help or else he'd be screwed. And that's not Vegeta and Freeza (2nd Form) on equal levels, Vegeta was even lower than 1st Form Freeza.

 

[GSM123]

Vegeta was expecting to fight a transformed Freeza when he could barely keep-up with 1st form Freeza. Vegeta knew he'd need the other two's help or else he'd be screwed. And that's not Vegeta and Freeza (2nd Form) on equal levels, Vegeta was even lower than 1st Form Freeza.

Vegeta expected the power up to be very minimal.
Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.1-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”

Plus Gohan himself said they may be able to beat 1st form Freeza, so Vegeta saying they could definitely beat a stronger Freeza might've been a stretch.

You're wrong because DBZ isnt logical in any ways. Its an anime show that follows it own damn rule. Toriyama doesnt give a shit about consistency and makes retcons to his own needs like the 19/20 retcon in the android saga. Also do you think Frieza have some sort attention problem that he can't concentrate on one thing? In that pic he was already humilated by goku and gone off the deep end. He wanted to destroy the planet. Piccolo asked for harsher training but he only trained for only several day while Goku did a year and yet piccolo get so much stronger. Training is inconsistent, theirs not some sort of system where " Oh he trains for this amount time and this amount of pressure so using calculations he ends up this amount of times strong" Its determined by plot. Oh and you still havent aswered why Krillin and the humans would even bothered to train for the androids if they were making zero gainz.

That's a horrible (lack of) logic. Consistence is not about complex mathematical formulas for power gains, it's about common sense. If you read the story, you'll see that the same character hardly does the same training twice, he always needs to improve. Toriyama himself admits he'd constantly struggle to make characters stronger, so it's not like he does things on the whim:

Spoiler

Plus the Super Exciting Guide literally has a section explaining how Goku's power gains works, so there is a semblance of consistence here.

He doesn't have, but he's not multitask either. If I throw a chair at you while you're concentrated on something, would you not lose your focus?

Or perhaps Piccolo isn't as strong as you think. There's no need for him to have a plot induced power up when he's has zero feats and gets a cheap power up as soon as he arrives on Namek. All he has is Nail calling him "strong".

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yet, Vegeta said that. You said we should take every statement into account. He didn't think that at all. He even expected him to transform physically. He saw Zarbon's transformation as-well, as-well as Zarbon saying Freeza's true power was far beyond their comprehension.

 

[GSM123]

If we are to take all statements into account, there's Gohan not being sure if they can take on Freeza:
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after Freeza and Vegeta grapple for a bit, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”

But even if you decide to take Vegeta's words over Gohan's, that doesn't mean they're all super powerful either. Goku and Piccolo managed to come up with a plan to defeat Raditz, and so did Piccolo, Gohan and Kuririn to defeat Nappa. They did fail, but it was a matter of Goku and Gohan pussing out rather than the plan being ineffective.

 

[SSJ2]

GSM, no offense man, but everything you are saying for evidence is relying on what-of scenarios. The fact of the matter is, Gohan and Krillin were stated to be steadily powering up - to the point where Vegeta says they can beat Freeza and Gohan agrees with him enough to believe him. The same Gohan who was in terror at the premise of facing nappa with Piccolo and Krillin. Where in Vegeta's statement do you hear him speaking about making intricate plans, using decoys, distractions, etc? All he says is the the three of them together can beat Freeza. It honestly feels like you are trying to argue his statement is false to push your own agenda. We have it written out clear as day and you are continually reaching to avoid making Gohan and Krillin strong. Its disappointing to read.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Those were hopeless scenarios though. They put all their bets on them because they had no other choice (Piccolo himself said so against Raditz). Here's Vegeta being sure he can take Freeza.

 

[SSJ2]

Listen, this situation is not meant to be so complex.

Freeza arrives, everyone is scared shitless. Vegeta looks nervous but remains confident. He plays up Gohan and Krillin's battle powers saying they are steadily rising and that the 3 of them can surely defeat Freeza. Gohan confirmed his statement directly after saying "he's right. He's awesome but our strength has increased".Why would Gohan say this if he and Krillin were meant to be ragdolls for Freeza giving Vegeta a slim chance to land a devastating blow? All of the statements say if they work together through fighting they can win, not cheap tricks and distractions. If the intent of the scene was to show that they can beat Freeza through tactics, he wouldnt have even said that to Freeza. Why lie about Gohan having powers he cant even dream of if he is going to be instantly swatted aside like a fly?

 

[SSJ2]

"He's awesome but our strength has increased."

Yeah, jumping from 22k to 30k is enough to counter Freeza's inconceivable power level.