Proof base > Freeza

ahill1

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Vegeta accepted to fight in the tournament in base, saying he'll still have the upper hand, and #18 was there. No reason for him to not include her, specially when she was in the spaceship when Vegeta agreed to such.

eofQ0OV.jpg


Later, Kaioshin stated every one of them could defeat Freeza with one blow, pretty much treating him as garbage:

LkRrma9.jpg


Yet later he was completely flabbergasted by base Vegeta's power, saying he never dreamed they [the Saiyans] were this powerful. I don't think it makes sense if base Vegeta < Freeza... Would Kaioshin be goashing at a power he could oneshot?

uLpiIJt.jpg


And later we have base Goten and Trunks, while in a costume, not doing so bad against #18, getting up like nothing after being punched in the ground:

MIB7omT.jpg


Whilst you can say that #18 was holding back, shouldn't she just quickly increase her effort and oneshot them were she using like a low percentage of her power? I don't see why she would purposely drag the fight when her only goal was getting the money from the Tournament.

Plus, Trunks fires a blast that he thinks will end up above #18 based on the prowess #18 displayed on their fight. If #18 were indeed using like a fraction of her power, wouldn't she tank the blast à la Raditz vs Piccolo? The fact that the blast was a threat to her ought to mean Trunks' prediction of her power (which would be based on the power she was using) was somewhat accurate (still a little off though since she dodged it).


We also do have Kaioshin being seemingly afraid of Yakon (an enemy base Goku can fight against) and suggesting everyone to gang up on him... the same Kaioshin who can fell Freeza in a single blow. It doesn't really seem like Kaioshin can so effortlessly beat Yakon considering this...


0256-009.png


The Daizenshuu also supports the idea that Yakon is a magical beast feared by Kaioshin.



EAT THAT!!! MWAHAHAHAHAH
 

p123

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Yeah Kaioshin is all over the place in Badibids ship. I choose to ignore that. They should have had said that if Kaioshin gets involved Dabura will be immediately called out.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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p123 said:
Yeah Kaioshin is all over the place in Badibids ship. I choose to ignore that. They should have had said that if Kaioshin gets involved Dabura will be immediately called out.

Except Kaioshin was going to get involved, the Saiyans just made a point of fighting on their own.


Ahill i've had doubts myself about Base > Freeza. They have transformations for a reason, you know. I'll post my stuff here tonight.
 

p123

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Well that's what I mean. The way they did the events in the ship suggests that

Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Freeza
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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When i was going with Base > Freeza, Base > Kaioshin was the main argument for me. Though it would make scaling messy because Base Kids can't be >> #18, and trying to prove Piccolo > Kaioshin is futile. Didn't work out well.
 

p123

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Yep, the Buu Saga is like that. It's all about decision making.
 

ahill1

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I just find it kinda hard to believe that Kaioshin would react that way to a power inferior to Freeza's, to which he said he can fell in a single blow. He also fears Yakon according to the Daizenshuu...the same Yakon who was having trouble fighting base Goku. Every proof available in the manga is on the base's side.
 

Tapion

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Beerus's statement is contradicted later anyway. It never amounted to anything but speculation. Beerus had never seen Freeza's final form and was only making baseless guesses and going by his guts, which is further shown when he says defeating Freeza would "all" a Super Saiyan Goku would be capable of.
 

ahill1

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Yeah. Some people say that "all you're capable of" isn't saying that Freeza would give SSJ Goku a tough time, only that Freeza had no one else to compare Goku to, hence the best he could do... but that statement seems pretty strange if Beerus envisioned Goku's like many times above Freeza, imo. I think the writers were thinking that SSJ is needed to defeat Freeza, but that it wouldn't be easy, as if Goku had just evolved by unlocking higher states. In the manga Beerus doesn't even aknowledge Freeza being surpassed until Goku levels up to ssj2. Wouldn't be surprised if they were seeing Freeza as stronger than the manga implies.
 

Victorious

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ahill1 said:
Yeah. Some people say that "all you're capable of" isn't saying that Freeza would give SSJ Goku a tough time, only that Freeza had no one else to compare Goku to, hence the best he could do... but that statement seems pretty strange if Beerus envisioned Goku's like many times above Freeza, imo. I think the writers were thinking that SSJ is needed to defeat Freeza, but that it wouldn't be easy, as if Goku had just evolved by unlocking higher states. In the manga Beerus doesn't even aknowledge Freeza being surpassed until Goku levels up to ssj2. Wouldn't be surprised if they were seeing Freeza as stronger than the manga implies.

Didnt he and Whis literally 'watch highlights' of the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight on Namek? They were eating and I remember them watching the fight, somehow.

Anyway Beerus saw the golden-yellow hair of the Super Saiyans and Goku. So I think he was appraising Goku based on appearance rather than ki sensing.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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ahill1 said:
Vegeta accepted to fight in the tournament in base, saying he'll still have the upper hand, and #18 was there. No reason for him to not include her, specially when she was in the spaceship when Vegeta agreed to such.

eofQ0OV.jpg

He may be just comparing himself to his SSJ fellows here. Something like "If nobody's a SSJ, we'll be in equal terms. I still have the upperhand [among our race]." or it might be just Vegeta talking outta his ass.

Now i know you're gonna say it's conjecture because Vegeta was never directly contradicted. You're right, but other evidence implies base forms have limits, limits that can't be overcamed by training, only by transformations. Vegeta voices this pretty well in the Androids Arc:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”


If they are limitless, then there's no point in wasting time trying to reach new transformations, they could just use this time training their base forms.

Later, Kaioshin stated every one of them could defeat Freeza with one blow, pretty much treating him as garbage:

LkRrma9.jpg
[/quote]

Don't forget Goku's reaction to it :CC

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Doesn't sound like someone who can one shot Freeza in any form for me.

Yet later he was completely flabbergasted by base Vegeta's power, saying he never dreamed they [the Saiyans] were this powerful. I don't think it makes sense if base Vegeta < Freeza... Would Kaioshin be goashing at a power he could oneshot?

uLpiIJt.jpg

Actually, it's made pretty clear in that sequence that Kaioshin was freaking out. Goku had just voiced not even Dabra's a concern to them:
Chapter: 448 (DBZ 254), P6.1-4
Context: after Kuririn and Piccolo are turned to stone
Goku: “Well then, is there any way to return them to normal?!”
Kaioshin: “Th…that’s [impossible]…As long as Dabra doesn’t die…”
Goku: “Well then, there is a way, ain’t there? A simple way like that…!”
Kaioshin: “Huh!?”


And he had sensed SSJ2 Gohan's Ki prior. Kaioshin isn't relying on Ki sensing, he's relying on what he's seeing: Vegeta taking on someone who he expected to be a complete beast. You might try to argue Pui Pui > SSJ2 Gohan, but i know you're smarter than this, Ahill :gay2

And later we have base Goten and Trunks, while in a costume, not doing so bad against #18, getting up like nothing after being punched in the ground:

MIB7omT.jpg


Whilst you can say that #18 was holding back, shouldn't she just quickly increase her effort and oneshot them were she using like a low percentage of her power? I don't see why she would purposely drag the fight when her only goal was getting the money from the Tournament.

Not really. She's still confident after seeing the boys going SSJ, what indicates she didn't go all out on them. It's not until she gets a good grasp of their powers that she decides she has to throw a Kienzan at them to win.

She's also shown to be curious about who Mighty Mask is and why he's so strong, so it's likely she wouldn't be fighting seriously, portrayed graphically by her lack of struggle in blocking their hits. You might chalk it up to the costume holding them back, but then you would lose your point anyway as neither of them were going all out.

Plus, Trunks fires a blast that he thinks will end up above #18 based on the prowess #18 displayed on their fight. If #18 were indeed using like a fraction of her power, wouldn't she tank the blast à la Raditz vs Piccolo? The fact that the blast was a threat to her ought to mean Trunks' prediction of her power (which would be based on the power she was using) was somewhat accurate (still a little off though since she dodged it).

Not really. Albeit powerful, the kids lack good Ki control (As shown when Goten can't even fly and Trunks is sweating and a bit winded after having to suppress himself a bit to Goten's level), a recurrent trait among hybrids. It merely was the case that he didn't suppress himself good enough. If that were the case, he'd have made a blast fast enough for #18 to be blitzed by it.

We also do have Kaioshin being seemingly afraid of Yakon (an enemy base Goku can fight against) and suggesting everyone to gang up on him... the same Kaioshin who can fell Freeza in a single blow. It doesn't really seem like Kaioshin can so effortlessly beat Yakon considering this...

0256-009.png


The Daizenshuu also supports the idea that Yakon is a magical beast feared by Kaioshin.

Afraid because Yakon has a M on his chest he has been recruited by Babidi, so he naturally expected him to be a complete beast. But given how his best feat is only tangling with Goku, who thinks Kaioshin one shotting Freeza is impressive as fuck, it becomes clear he was being overestimated.

EAT THAT!!! MWAHAHAHAHAH

No, YOU EAT THAT, AHILL! :umad :umad :umad
 

p123

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I don't understand how people think 18 has more in the tank when she couldn't surpass the boys in base. Like, why not increase your power since you barely have an edge?
 

Victorious

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If they are limitless, then there's no point in wasting time trying to reach new transformations, they could just use this time training their base forms.

Except they'd always be 1/50th the fighter they could be with the transformation. So obviously having the transformation is not pointless at all.
 

Evil Vegeta

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Vegeta was shown training intensely in Base before the 25th Budokai, so it seems like those lesser forms can still grow in power.
 

Victorious

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What makes sense is that, as they get stronger all forms increase proportionately. That's definitely what the Vegeta comment on the plane implies.
 

Pocket-Gog~

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Yeah, it's pretty clear and cut that base Saiyans have long since surpassed Freeza.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Victorious said:
Except they'd always be 1/50th the fighter they could be with the transformation. So obviously having the transformation is not pointless at all.

Well going by your logic a year in the Rosat made Base Goku go from like 2-3% of Freeza to two shoting #17. And that's when he wasted a chunk of his time with the "getting rid of the strain" stuff.

Evil Vegeta said:
Vegeta was shown training intensely in Base before the 25th Budokai, so it seems like those lesser forms can still grow in power.

I don't think that means much. He was also training in 150G despite. Everybody there was probably just polishing themselves for the Budokai.
 

p123

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By the Androids Saga I already have the Base Saiyans at almost 10% of Freeza.
 
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