Proof base > Freeza

[Victorious]

GS123? Yeah I think he could trash #17 in base after RoSaT. But he had already seen initial Semi Cell who is >>>>>>>>> #17. Goku's gonna need a 50x power up to tackle the arc's Super villain ie Cell.

 

[Tapion]

[mention]GreatSaiyaman123[/mention]

He may be just comparing himself to his SSJ fellows here. Something like "If nobody's a SSJ, we'll be in equal terms. I still have the upperhand [among our race]." or it might be just Vegeta talking outta his ass.

Herms's translation is more clear:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Vegeta expects to be able to win against everyone even in base, and, without any reason to assume Goku would have improved just as significantly he did (given the fact he had unlocked SSj2 and wasn't aware that Goku had done the same until Babidi happened), he would be correct. Likewise, Trunks states that Goku didn't seem to live up to the hype, which suggests Goku was still suppressed. Goten also doesn't directly contradict him either. He rather just repeats what Gohan said about his dad, as if to say "my brother would never lie!"

Context: talking about Goku
Trunks: “Wasn’t he supposed to be incredible? He doesn’t look it though…My dad seems stronger.”
Goten: “…But my big brother said our father was the best in the universe.”

Meaning Vegeta's statement was true at the time. It basically paints the rather clear picture that Goku's improvement limits were unknown and Gohan was definitely weaker than he was in all forms, so who else would stop him from winning the tournament? Nobody. And that'd include 18.

Now i know you're gonna say it's conjecture because Vegeta was never directly contradicted. You're right, but other evidence implies base forms have limits, limits that can't be overcamed by training, only by transformations. Vegeta voices this pretty well in the Androids Arc:

This quote, in context, talking about the fact that Vegeta was unable to bridge the gap between him and Goku by mindlessly training. That's factual, of course. There was quite the distance between their maximum powers. And, at the time, he'd just about reached the limits of his training. The RoSaT clearly changed the hierarchy, however. Vegeta had similarly reached the limits, the "wall" of his Super Saiyan state after the fight with No. 18 and after watching the bout between Cell and Piccolo, and needed to ascend to Grade II to be able to make great gains again:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P12.7
Goku: “Vegeta is a genius…He ought to be able to surpass the Super Saiyan wall, but…”

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

However, Trunks expresses surprise at Vegeta simply skipping fighting Semi Cell as a regular Super Saiyan:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”

Which greatly implies that, despite having also reached his limits as a Super Saiyan, a new form of training broke those limits and allowed Vegeta's power to skyrocket again, even as a regular Super Saiyan. Likewise, Vegeta's ascension to Grade II and training in the RoSaT were also described as him reaching a "wall":

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P6.2, P7.1-2
Context: after saying perfect Cell is hiding his true power
Kuririn: “Just like you are, Trunks…[ ] I suppose Vegeta hasn’t noticed just due to the way he is, but I can tell somehow…You’re…restraining yourself for Vegeta…You’ve surpassed the wall which Vegeta couldn't overcome…Am I wrong?”

Goku later states that Vegeta still had room left to get stronger, but the overall point stands that reaching one's limits in a singular state is irrelevant after breaking them with harsh, new ways of training; which is why Vegeta hit a literal wall in his Super Saiyan form, but could still get stronger after the RoSaT. I see no reason this wouldn't apply to base either.

Don't forget Goku's reaction to it

If that reaction meant exactly what you think it means, Goku would be suggesting that one shotting Freeza is a feat that even the likes of Cell wouldn't be capable of. Which is complete bogus, of course.

Goku is just surprised that those mega gods who far surpassed anything he'd seen in the Afterlife were killed.

And he had sensed SSJ2 Gohan's Ki prior

Yet he was completely shocked when he saw Gohan's power when he fought suppressed Fat Boo. Yet he told Kibito that he didn't see how powerful SSj2 Gohan was later on. Gohan's Budokai SSj2 was completely retconned and it's one of the basic assumptions we make for the convoluted mess that took place in the beginning of that saga.

Mighty Mask and 18

The Daizenshuu states that Base Goten and Trunks demonstrated power on par with No. 18, which'd be a meaningless feat to mention if she was holding back so massively.

* "He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise."

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Herms's translation is more clear:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Vegeta expects to be able to win against everyone even in base, and, without any reason to assume Goku would have improved just as significantly he did (given the fact he had unlocked SSj2 and wasn't aware that Goku had done the same until Babidi happened), he would be correct. Likewise, Trunks states that Goku didn't seem to live up to the hype, which suggests Goku was still suppressed. Goten also doesn't directly contradict him either. He rather just repeats what Gohan said about his dad, as if to say "my brother would never lie!"

Context: talking about Goku
Trunks: “Wasn’t he supposed to be incredible? He doesn’t look it though…My dad seems stronger.”
Goten: “…But my big brother said our father was the best in the universe.”

Meaning Vegeta's statement was true at the time. It basically paints the rather clear picture that Goku's improvement limits were unknown and Gohan was definitely weaker than he was in all forms, so who else would stop him from winning the tournament? Nobody. And that'd include 18.

Actually, Vegeta isn't in the tournament to win, he's merely focused on knowing how he compares to Goku and Gohan nowadays. He nevers shows any desire to win and he doesn't give a fuck about facing #18 or Piccolo, only about Goku and Gohan.

Spoiler

There's still the possibility he was bullshitting as well, since base forms becoming as strong as SSJ form defeats the purpose of SSJ existing in the first place.

This quote, in context, talking about the fact that Vegeta was unable to bridge the gap between him and Goku by mindlessly training. That's factual, of course. There was quite the distance between their maximum powers. And, at the time, he'd just about reached the limits of his training. The RoSaT clearly changed the hierarchy, however. Vegeta had similarly reached the limits, the "wall" of his Super Saiyan state after the fight with No. 18 and after watching the bout between Cell and Piccolo, and needed to ascend to Grade II to be able to make great gains again:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P12.7
Goku: “Vegeta is a genius…He ought to be able to surpass the Super Saiyan wall, but…”

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

However, Trunks expresses surprise at Vegeta simply skipping fighting Semi Cell as a regular Super Saiyan:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”

Which greatly implies that, despite having also reached his limits as a Super Saiyan, a new form of training broke those limits and allowed Vegeta's power to skyrocket again, even as a regular Super Saiyan. Likewise, Vegeta's ascension to Grade II and training in the RoSaT were also described as him reaching a "wall":

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P6.2, P7.1-2
Context: after saying perfect Cell is hiding his true power
Kuririn: “Just like you are, Trunks…[ ] I suppose Vegeta hasn’t noticed just due to the way he is, but I can tell somehow…You’re…restraining yourself for Vegeta…You’ve surpassed the wall which Vegeta couldn't overcome…Am I wrong?”

Goku later states that Vegeta still had room left to get stronger, but the overall point stands that reaching one's limits in a singular state is irrelevant after breaking them with harsh, new ways of training; which is why Vegeta hit a literal wall in his Super Saiyan form, but could still get stronger after the RoSaT. I see no reason this wouldn't apply to base either.

I don't entirely disagree with you here. Base Goku surpassed his limits at least twice on Namek as well without ransforming.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

But there comes a moment when they hit a definitive, final wall. A wall that can one can only overcome with a new transformation. This is shown to be the case when Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 2 and 3 in the Afterlife after claiming he can't get any stronger in the Cell Games instead of just breaking his limits and becoming Boo level as a SSJ1. The feel that limits can only be surpassed with transformations is worded by Toriyama as well:

Q: "Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?"
A: "I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something[...]"

If that reaction meant exactly what you think it means, Goku would be suggesting that one shotting Freeza is a feat that even the likes of Cell wouldn't be capable of.

Why?

Yet he was completely shocked when he saw Gohan's power when he fought suppressed Fat Boo. Yet he told Kibito that he didn't see how powerful SSj2 Gohan was later on. Gohan's Budokai SSj2 was completely retconned and it's one of the basic assumptions we make for the convoluted mess that took place in the beginning of that saga.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Budokai SSJ2 Gohan wasn't retconed, he was merely not at his full power there. That's why his power against Dabra and Boo is considered more impressive than what Kibito saw.

It's not an assumption that helps with the arc one bit, it just makes things even more convoluted. If it was retconed, then what is Kaioshin talking about? Where did Yamu and Spopovich get energy from then?

The Daizenshuu states that Base Goten and Trunks demonstrated power on par with No. 18, which'd be a meaningless feat to mention if she was holding back so massively.

* "He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise."

Except that the fight we saw shows us the opposite. #18 was seemingly in control of the fight the whole time, never breaking a sweat as she throws punches and the boys.

 

[ahill1]

since base forms becoming as strong as SSJ form defeats the purpose of SSJ existing in the first place.

Why though? Even if the base state surpassed the initial SSJ, the SSJ would be still fitting its role by multiplying the base power. The SSJ doesn't simply exist not to be surpassed by the base form.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why though? Even if the base state surpassed the initial SSJ, the SSJ would be still fitting its role by multiplying the base power. The SSJ doesn't simply exist not to be surpassed by the base form.

Because Super Saiyan is the limit breaker. Daizenshuu 7 describes it as "The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan" and Toriyama says he made SSJ up because he felt like Goku reached his limits in the interview i showed Tapion. You can argue it's refering to their current limitations (As Goku had no way of having a Zenkai or leaving to train when he was fighting Freeza on Namek), but that's where things go back to the statement i posted about Vegeta hitting his limits. That's where things come full circle here.

In the case of the upper forms (Whose multiplier is far smaller than 50x) it's a even more blatant case because they're shown to take a long time to be achieved (Trunks mentions Vegeta took 2 months to achieve Grade II inside the Rosat, and that's after he spend 3 days meditating about how to transcend the SSJ) and they could easily dedicate this time of meditation and attempts to unlock new forms to strenghtening SSJ1 instead and them transcendind the "Super Saiyan wall" in the Boo Arc wouldn't be represented by SSJ2 and 3.

 

[ahill1]

Limits is basically a throwaway line in Dragon Ball.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Toriyama begs to differ.

Toriyama: Dragon Ball was a serious pain. I was always wondering “The character can’t possibly get any stronger, do I have to continue this?”

It's just a matter of looking at it with the right eyes, Ahill. Sometimes the huge limit breaking power ups we see aren't just the outcome of a few push ups or as huge as we think. Only time limits were a throw away was on Namek. Before and after it it was all about training, achieving transformations and supernatural rituals.

 

[Tapion]

Vegeta ascending to Super Saiyan was also described as his wall, but after his training in the RoSaT his regular Super Saiyan increased massively in power as well, shattering said wall. The same applies to anything after that. This is all semantics unless you''re literally saying that the Android Arc base states are equal to the Boo Saga base states, which is honestly nonsense.

 

[ahill1]

Toriyama begs to differ.

Toriyama: Dragon Ball was a serious pain. I was always wondering “The character can’t possibly get any stronger, do I have to continue this?”

It's just a matter of looking at it with the right eyes, Ahill. Sometimes the huge limit breaking power ups we see aren't just the outcome of a few push ups or as huge as we think. Only time limits were a throw away was on Namek. Before and after it it was all about training, achieving transformations and supernatural rituals.

Kuririn said he believed he reached his limits right before Guru unlocked his potential.

After healing, Goku said the new power he received was enough to make him shudder after believing he had originally reached his limits.

Vegeta said he reached his limits before becoming a Super Saiyan. Of course we later see him training in Base before the Boo saga. Why train in base if it won't get results?

Before the Champa tournament, Vegeta said they wouldn't improve much from the rosat because they were nearing their limits. What happened when he went back into the rosat during the Black saga? He powered-up tremendously and beat the shit outta black.

It's all plot based. Vegeta staing he ran through a wall -- his limits -- doesn't mean his base can't grow stronger anymore. Similarly, Goku stated him and Gohan wouldn't go back to the RoSaT because they toughened their boides as most as they could... yet in the Boo saga Goku surpassed kid Gohan and Gohan surpassed Super Boo via the Ultimate power up.

It seems limits is used as a way to cast a certain suspense in some situations. It's ignored enough to really not matter that much.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Namek base = Boo base is what i've been arguing. It's blatantly stated by Toriyama SSJ exists because base Goku can't get stronger. Perhaps i should quote myself here?

I don't entirely disagree with you here. Base Goku surpassed his limits at least twice on Namek as well without ransforming.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

But there comes a moment when they hit a definitive, final wall. A wall that can one can only overcome with a new transformation. This is shown to be the case when Goku unlocks Super Saiyan 2 and 3 in the Afterlife after claiming he can't get any stronger in the Cell Games instead of just breaking his limits and becoming Boo level as a SSJ1. The feel that limits can only be surpassed with transformations is worded by Toriyama as well:

Q: "Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?"
A: "I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something."

 

[ahill1]

Why'd Goku and Vegeta train in their base state if they can't get stronger upon achieving the SSJ?

 

[Tapion]

How can Base Gokhan be able to beat Gotenks Boo if both of his components have already hit a dead wall? 0 x 0 is still 0.

 

[p123]

Good writing would entail that Transformations > Base Power forever. However, we weren't gifted with such good writing. It should have been that way though.

 

[Tapion]

Also, how the hell are Goten and Trunks supposed to be able to tango with No. 18 in their Super Saiyan states if they are weaker than Namek Goku? And how in living HFIL did Gohan say he'd be outstripped soon by them if they were SSj Goku level?

And how did Trunks survive Vegeta's reflex, unrestrained punch without getting his head hit off?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kuririn said he believed he reached his limits right before Guru unlocked his potential.

After healing, Goku said the new power he received was enough to make him shudder after believing he had originally reached his limits.

Vegeta said he reached his limits before becoming a Super Saiyan. Of course we later see him training in Base before the Boo saga. Why train in base if it won't get results?

Before the Champa tournament, Vegeta said they wouldn't improve much from the rosat because they were nearing their limits. What happened when he went back into the rosat during the Black saga? He powered-up tremendously and beat the shit outta black.

It's all plot based. Vegeta staing he ran through a wall -- his limits -- doesn't mean his base can't grow stronger anymore. Similarly, Goku stated him and Gohan wouldn't go back to the RoSaT because they toughened their boides as most as they could... yet in the Boo saga Goku surpassed kid Gohan and Gohan surpassed Super Boo via the Ultimate power up.

It seems limits is used as a way to cast a certain suspense in some situations. It's ignored enough to really not matter that much.

As i said before, "Sometimes the huge limit breaking power ups we see aren't just the outcome of a few push ups". When they run into a wall they don't go to the gym do some deadlifts and push ups, they reinvent their methods or even themselves. Be it through new training methods, abuse of near death increases, magical power ups or transformations.

The only situations that don't fall into the category of transformation or magic power up are Super (That is produced by Toei, who clearly doesn't give a fuck about power scaling in their productions) or Vegeta training (What was never stated to grant him any power increase).

Limits aren't just to cast suspense, Toriyama admitedly wrote as he went by and always intended to end the series early, only being pushed. You will notice Goku always refined his training methods, from training with masters to abusing of Zenkais to unlocking and perfecting SSJ forms to doing ancient Godly rituals. He always runs into a wall, and he always needs a new way of powering up. When the way he finds is by transforming, then it's because his lower form is outdated can't get any stronger.

 

[ahill1]

Good writing would entail that Transformations > Base Power forever. However, we weren't gifted with such good writing. It should have been that way though.

They are always weaker than transformation though... Goku turns a ssj and he gets stronger ^^.

 

[p123]

No. What I mean is, logically, Super Saiyan was required to hit the 150 million area range. So 150 million should always be off limits to Base Power.

But this has been a problem with DB since the beginning. The humans should have never got anywhere close to King Piccolo's level and it has only gotten worse since then.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Good writing would entail that Transformations > Base Power forever. However, we weren't gifted with such good writing. It should have been that way though.

Exactly. If they can grow stronger by pushing rocks around then everything makes no sense.

I think we were (As Toriyama agrees with you on several interviews and drops hints of it around the story), but i think he was just so tired of all that shit by the Boo Arc he just said "Fuck it all". He was probably happy to write Dragon Ball again after 20 years in Battle of Gods and give us more hints of those limtis (Base Goku is still < Freeza after almost 20 years, and he also needs to become a god in order to surpass Gohan), but then he handled the series to Toei and Toyotaro and they fucked up.

 

[ahill1]

The only situations that don't fall into the category of transformation or magic power up are Super (That is produced by Toei, who clearly doesn't give a fuck about power scaling in their productions) or Vegeta training (What was never stated to grant him any power increase).

The manga wasn't producced by TOEI and the line in which Vegeta states that they can't grow much stronger is there. We saw how him and Goku grew way stronger post RoSaT. Limits are mentioned, but then ignored. Saying Vegeta base remained the same since his SSJ achievement is ridiculous. Are you saying that Kaioshin goashing at Vegeta's power and stating "I never thought they were this strong" would make a lick of sense if Vegeta were in the low millions?

Like Tapion mentioned, they also established the SSJ, in the androids arc, as a wall. Yet we clearly saw how Vegeta got strong enough just in the SSJ state to the point of being able to tangle with initial Semi Cell as per Trunks' surprise.

Goku said he toughened his body as much as he could... and we know the SSJ2 and 3 achievements weren't the only way Goku powered up. He also surpassed Kid Gohan, to whom he was weaker previsouly.

Gohan's base also got stronger upon training and mastering the Z word in a time he had already unlocked SSJ. Kaioshin was even excited with the possibility of him outputing even more incredible power with his already increase in the base state.

Training in base to get in shape is pretty iffy as well. If they have their SSJ state and that state, according to you, is the only one who can improve, then why not just keep the training restricted to SSJ? Vegeta didn't even know about the non-SSJ rule at that time, so there was no reason for him to maintain his base form in shape. He should be training to get stronger, not to not get weaker in a state he wasn't even planning on using.

 

[ahill1]

No. What I mean is, logically, Super Saiyan was required to hit the 150 million area range. So 150 million should always be off limits to Base Power.

But this has been a problem with DB since the beginning. The humans should have never got anywhere close to King Piccolo's level and it has only gotten worse since then.

I see.