Proof base > Freeza

[p123]

I think the humans should have always remained far below King Piccolo. Remember, the strongest human ever, Master Mutaito and his star pupils, the Turtle Hermit and the Crane Hermit, were all only around King Piccolo's initial level as an old Namekian.

I think human potential can surpass that sure, but not by much. I don't think humans should ever be touching Less than Half King Piccolo.

Goku's progress is understandable because he is a Saiyan after all. I'm ok with Goku's progress from here on out until Namek. Even the massive gains he made in Other World I can justify because they are still within the limits of the Saiyan race and he had to die and literally come back to life to gain them.

Even their ridiculous zenkais have some sort of logic to it as they broke through the Saiyan barrier, the Super Saiyan enabled them to unlead the Saiyan's true potential.

But after acquiring Super Saiyan, it should have essentially been all diminishing returns from there.

The Super Saiyan was supposed to mean something, the legendary Super Saiyan. All of these forms on top of it, meh...

But that would make the story telling much harder, so it is what it is.

 

[ahill1]

I think the Freeza arc would be a suit ending, with Goku achieving the "unsurpasable" state, only made to him, the true legend.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The manga wasn't producced by TOEI and the line in which Vegeta states that they can't grow much stronger is there. We saw how him and Goku grew way stronger post RoSaT. Limits are mentioned, but then ignored. Saying Vegeta base remained the same since his SSJ achievement is ridiculous. Are you saying that Kaioshin goashing at Vegeta's power and stating "I never thought they were this strong" would make a lick of sense if Vegeta were in the low millions?

And what implies he got stronger in the manga? From what we've seen every power up in the manga was about using SSJ Blue correctly.

Kaioshin's reaction doesn't make sense unless you're trying to argue Base Vegeta > Budokai SSJ2 Gohan. A lot of stuff doesn't make sense in the Boo Arc, Ahill.

Like Tapion mentioned, they also established the SSJ, in the androids arc, as a wall. Yet we clearly saw how Vegeta got strong enough just in the SSJ state to the point of being able to tangle with initial Semi Cell as per Trunks' surprise.

Well, there are two ways you could take this here:
Option A: Vegeta was in a state between Grade I and II when he flied to Cell.
Option B: The "Super Saiyan wall" and "Transcending the Super Saiyan" are in reference to overcoming the plateau they were stuck in. Much like their base forms (That Goku improved from a PL of 416 to a PL of millions), SSJ isn't one fix power level, it can be improved until you reach it's limit and require a new transformation to get stronger.

Which one you chose it depends of what do you think the Z Fighters mean when they talk about Super Saiyan in the Android Arc: The power range or the transformation.

Goku said he toughened his body as much as he could... and we know the SSJ2 and 3 achievements weren't the only way Goku powered up. He also surpassed Kid Gohan, to whom he was weaker previsouly.

He's only noted to be stronger than Gohan in SSJ2, otherwise he's still weaker than Gohan. Vegeta doesn't notice Goku is > Gohan when he's fighting Yakon in base or SSJ, only when he shows his SSJ2 power he notices Goku is stronger.

Gohan's base also got stronger upon training and mastering the Z word in a time he had already unlocked SSJ. Kaioshin was even excited with the possibility of him outputing even more incredible power with his already increase in the base state.

That's mostly because he has grown up, so naturally he'd have more dormant power as an adult than he has as a kid. A similiar case was presented in before when Kid Goku had drank the Choushinsui, that is supposed:
Chapter: 151, P2.1
Karin: “Unlike the Super Holy Water, the Super God Water isn’t just a trick; it’s not merely ordinary water. Rather, it’s magnificent water capable of drawing out all the power you’ve got hidden inside you…”

Training in base to get in shape is pretty iffy as well. If they have their SSJ state and that state, according to you, is the only one who can improve, then why not just keep the training restricted to SSJ? Vegeta didn't even know about the non-SSJ rule at that time, so there was no reason for him to maintain his base form in shape. He should be training to get stronger, not to not get weaker in a state he wasn't even planning on using.

If that were the case he'd be training in SSJ2, not SSJ.

He also trains in 150G prior despite having mastered even 300G, so clearly he didn't go inside that Gravity Chamber expecting to come out 2x stronger or so.

 

[p123]

I agree, Freeza would have been a good area to do end this. I think Cell could have happened before Freeza. And have Freeza be the final boss.

 

[Tapion]

You're trying to suggest that Namek Base Saiyans were the "ultimate limits" for them. That's just raw headcanon, sorry. You're continuously bringing up examples of limit breaking, but when you''re presented with yet another vague excerpt of Goku having reached his limits, you assume it's final even though there is next to no evidence to suggest as much and "limits" in DBZ consistently only exist to be broken.

Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Android Saga was stated to be his limit. It was broken in the RoSaT. And no, he was in not in a state between Grade I and II. That's inventing evidence and ignoring difficulties. It was explicitly stated that Grade 2 was when he surpassed the Super Saiyan wall. Just take statements at face value.

SSj Trunks and Goten said that a non-correctly managed ki blast from them would devastate No. 18. Yet we are supposed to believe their base states were weaker than Namek Goku. How are their SSj states able to cause damage to 18 if they are beneath Freeza? And why does Gohan believe he'd be soon outstripped by Goten if Goten is at most on 100% Freeza's level?

This view of the Base Saiyans never having gotten stronger after the Freeza/Android Arcs honestly makes no sense.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You're trying to suggest that Namek Base Saiyans were the "ultimate limits" for them. That's just raw headcanon, sorry. You're continuously bringing up examples of limit breaking, but when you''re presented with yet another vague excerpt of Goku having reached his limits, you assume it's final even though there is next to no evidence to suggest as much and "limits" in DBZ consistently only exist to be broken.

Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Android Saga was stated to be his limit. It was broken in the RoSaT. And no, he was in not in a state between Grade I and II. That's inventing evidence and ignoring difficulties. It was explicitly stated that Grade 2 was when he surpassed the Super Saiyan wall. Just take statements at face value.

SSj Trunks and Goten said that a non-correctly managed ki blast from them would devastate No. 18. Yet we are supposed to believe their base states were weaker than Namek Goku. How are their SSj states able to cause damage to 18 if they are beneath Freeza? And why does Gohan believe he'd be soon outstripped by Goten if Goten is at most on 100% Freeza's level?

This view of the Base Saiyans never having gotten stronger after the Freeza/Android Arcs honestly makes no sense.

The proof is in the puddin, Tapion. I've brought enough evidence for my side, from statements from the manga, the Daizenshuu 7 and even Toriyama himself. Look up on the posts i've made. I'm not trying to suggest anything via headcanon, i'm merely presenting the evidence for you.

I think you're missing the point. Limits exist to be surpassed in Dragon Ball, but they aren't surpassed by them going to the local gym and doing 20 push ups, that's whacky from both a in universe perspective and a storytelling perspective. They constantly have to reinvent their methods of training (With Goku training on 100G after mastering 10G at Kaio's) or even themselves (With the Saiyans achieving new forms whenever they need to become stronger)>

I'm not making evidence up, actually. It's blatantly stated they must transcend Super Saiyan to even surpass the Cyborgs, let alone Cell. If Vegeta leaves the Rosat powerful enough to one shot #18, then has he not surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?

And as i told Ahill before, limits may pertain to the limitations of a training regiment (With Goku believing to have hit a wall merely because he trained in 100G before having that super zenkai). You may argue the same is the case with Vegeta saying he's hit a wall before unlocking SSJ, but if that were the case he likely wouldn't have unlock the form.

The kids are actually shown to be Full Power Super Saiyans as the artwork and their feats would imply, so naturally they would be above far above Freeza (Who's initial/Grade I SSJ level).

I agree, Freeza would have been a good area to do end this. I think Cell could have happened before Freeza. And have Freeza be the final boss.

I think Cell sounds better for a final villian. Like, he's a mix of every Z Fighter and every villian. That's a hell of a endgame boss.

 

[Tapion]

1. And after they reinvent their methods of training or transform, their base doesn't stay on the same level. It increases alongside whatever transformation they have unlocked. Saying otherwise is indeed headcanon. Vegeta's Super Saiyan also hit a wall, but then he unlocked Grade II and his Super Saiyan skyrocketed alongside it.

2. You are indeed making evidence up. No official source ever lists anything inbetween baseline Super Saiyan and Grade II. It's not directly said anywhere, it's not suggested by orher statements, the artwork shows literally no notable difference between Android Arc SSj Vegeta and Post-RoSaT SSj Vegeta, no source in any secondary media suggests that Vegeta was using any form of a Grade 1.5, etc. so t's pulled out of nowhere as far as a debate goes. It's the very definition of a personal headcanon, again.

Vegeta left the RoSaT strong enough to one-shot No. 18 - as a normal Super Saiyan. So he transcended the wall after going to the RoSaT and unlocking Grade II, allowing his normal power to increase again. Goku unlocked SSj and surpassed his limits, allowing his base to increase again. This is the standard assumption to be made. Suggesting otherwise requires evidence.

3. That's yet another assumption of yours...

4. There is no difference between a FPSSj and a SSj as far as raw power boost goes. Vegeta and Piccolo listed the differences. None of the statements included an increase in power boost, just the ability to utilize all of that power pretty much perpetually without stamina issues. They are one in the same. Vegeta even went as far as to violently correct Trunks when he assumed they were going to perform a transformation by using FPSSj as an amplifier.

Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Tapion[/mention]

1. Sadly, Toriyama doesn't agree with you.
Q: "Incidentally, what led you to have Goku become a Super Saiyan, or the villains to level up?"
A: "I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something."

Nor does Vegeta...
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Or the Daizenshuu 7.
Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

So nope, try again. The evidence that Base Saiyans have improved that much are already rather fragile by themselves, so those statements are the final nail in the coffin.


2. Actually, there's one statement from Trunks:
Chapter: 375 (DBZ 181), P1.3
Trunks: “Dad seemed to have surpassed the limits of Super Saiyan about 2 months after entering…Even so, he still didn’t seem satisfied, and so we ended up taking all this time.”

If surpassing the Super Saiyan wall were something as notable as buffing up into Super Vegeta, Trunks would've spoken more certainly about it.

As far as artwork changing a transformation does, Vegeta's hair does seem more spiky after he leaves Rosat. I myself just believe this is just Toriyama improving his artwork, but take that as you will.

Spoiler

And i'm not using headcanon by any means. Goku flat out says he must go even higher than Super Saiyan in order to defeat the Artificial Humans and Cell:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P1.1-2
Kame-sennin: “Aim even higher than Super Saiyan, you say? Is that possible…?!”
Goku: “I dunno…But it looks like I definitely won’t be able to beat these opponents without doing at least that…I’ll train for about 1 year, and if it’s no good, I’ll give up.”

So please tell me, how is Vegeta supposedly using the same transformation to match Semi Cell when it's literally stated (And shown) said transformation is inferior to even #18? This carries on to FPSSJ vs SSJ as well, since Goku wouldn't become any stronger if it weren't a bigger multiplier (As it's stated in the series SSJ is unlocked by reaching your base limit).

And the very statement you posted has Vegeta saying it's a bigger multiplier.
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

You may argue Vegeta's refering to them powering up to full power, but the way Steve Simmons translates it makes it sound like he's refering to a Grade forms-esque power up, sans the muscles ("So they can get away with raising their battle power").

Vegeta's statement ties with Goku said earlier about how the Grade forms are strainful and they must get rid of the instability of SSJ before making improvements.

Spoiler

As far as Trunks talking about transformation goes, the Japanese Anime clarifies this by adding a scene where Trunks says to himself how transforming for the sake of power is useless after Vegtea corrects him:

He then proceeds to say that's why he couldn't beat Cell, making clear by transformation he's refering to the bulking up of the Grade forms.

 

[Tapion]

1. No, that's just you misinterpreting the interview. You conveniently left out the very next sentence:

I was feeling that there were limits on mere strength, so I was generally always struggling to come up with something.I actually hadn’t planned Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation at all.

Toriyama isn't talking about Super Saiyan with that first sentence. He is talking about general power ups and methods of training and how it was getting harder to feasibly make Goku stronger. Then he explains how he came up wth Super Saiyan. He even mentions that transforming to increase strength became a norm, yet we know that their transformations don't hit a permanent wall, at all. How you got what you said from this, I have no idea.

But you see, you're in fact incorrect because EoZ Base Goku > Mr. Boo. Try explaining that one away.

And why are you repeating Vegeta's statement again and ignoring debate progression?

The Daizenshuu also states that Super Saiyan 3 draws the power of a Saiyan to its limits and that FPSSj Goku's power was drawn to his limits as a Super Saiyan to describe him powering up to 100% against Cell. It's consistently used as a fancy wording to say that it's powered up in comparison to an earlier state, not literal limits. Only Babidi's Majin power up, Old Kai's ritual and the Grand Elder use the wording literally.

Base EoZ Goku > Mr. Boo. Undeniable fact. I don't get why you think repeating statements we've already covered means anything.

2. Trunks's statement is a reference to Vegeta achieving Grade II.

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P9.1-2
Trunks: “Father really did surpass the limits of Super Saiyan…He obtained absolutely incredible power, like he has in that form now…But one day, I even further surpassed that realm…! I realized that this was what Son Goku had been talking about…”

He even describes him reaching Grade III as him further surpassing the form that surpasses the limits of Super Saiyan.

Goku also achieved Grade II within a few months of training, too.

How you take that to mean Vegeta unlocked a form between Grades I and II (which is headcanon) is beyond me.

And i'm not using headcanon by any means. Goku flat out says he must go even higher than Super Saiyan in order to defeat the Artificial Humans and Cell:

And ended up achieving that power without going any higher than Super Saiyan. FPSSj is the same as SSj, except mastered to the point there's no stamina drain. This proves absolutely nothing, dude.

So please tell me, how is Vegeta supposedly using the same transformation to match Semi Cell when it's literally stated (And shown) said transformation is inferior to even #18?

Because he went into the RoSaT and leveled up his Super Saiyan. You're merging your own headcanon with what's actually stated and acting like the two are interchangeable. They are not. Vegeta clearly went to the battlefield as a mere Super Saiyan, this is undeniable.

If there were any forms between Grade I and II, then Grade II would actually be Grade III. Yet literally absolutely no form of Dragon Ball media states this. Everything treats Grade II as the 1st powered up variation of Super Saiyan, including the Daizenshuu. There's literally absolutely nothing supporting this invisible Super Saiyan power up.

And the very statement you posted has Vegeta saying it's a bigger multiplier.

No, he doesn't say that. He's talking about them going to full power. Even the non canon anime excerpt you posted doesn't imply a power up, at all, and Herms has gone on to state that SSj and FPSj are the exact same thing as far as the guidebooks and the manga go. But hey, if we are going by the TV animation guidebooks, then FPSSj is literally nothing more than a controllable Super Saiyan:

Variations
Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this.

Overall, no.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Tapion[/mention]

That doesn't change anything. He couldn't see Goku getting any stronger, so that's why he made SSJ up.

Super does explains this, actually. Goku has absorbed the godly power and turned it into his base, so that places him worlds above Mr Boo. Some people to argue that Base Goku isn't above Mr Boo as well, but that's stupid.

I'm waiting for you to counter it. Every time i post Vegeta's statement someone comes to me with "Limits are a throw away line" and i've yet to see a direct counter to it.

And what makes you think the Daizenshuus are wrong? Goku straight up tells Gohan they can't get any stronger as SSJs, and in the Boo Arc Vegeta doesn't suspect he's stronger than Gohan until he shows SSJ2 against Yakon. There's absolutely zero evidence Boo Arc SSJ Goku is > Cell Games SSJ Goku.

And isn't Super Saiyan 3 the limit? The chapter where SSJ3 debuts is called "The limit", and it's stated Toriyama made SSJG up because he couldn't make Goku any stronger.
The key words this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

I think you missed the point here. Why is Trunks sounding uncertain ("Seemed") if it's just about becoming Grade II? It's a rather notable transformation for Trunks to sound so unsure of when Vegeta achieved it. Unless he's not specifically talking about Grade II, which is my point here.

It's literally stated FPSSJ is above SSJ in the Boo Arc.
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”
"Further surpassed", indicating they already had a form surpassing the SSJ wall. Wonder what form is that...

Not really. If he just needed to train a bit in order to surpass Vegeta, then why all the talk about transcending the Super Saiyan? You're just ignoring their statements for the sake of your own ideas.

And if we're going with Anime guidebooks, the guidebook that gave the Grade forms' names says "Grade 4" is stronger than Grade 3:
The 4 Super Saiyans power up each time they battle a strong foe! This complete analysis categorizes the process and history of their evolution, grade by grade!

And Daizenshuu 2 says Goku has drawn his power to his limits:
Goku trained in the Room of Spirit and Time before his fight with Cell. He draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits, and the aura that surrounds him is different.

Not really. Not only the way Steve Simmons translated it makes it closer to my own interpretation, but the statement would be redundant if it were merely about going 100%. The strain of Super Saiyan already was minimal (Only being a factor in fights when Goku was suffering from a heart desease), unlike say, the Grade forms that are actually stated to be strainful. And your interpretation gets contradicted anyway when Goku powers up into 50% of his power and surpasses Grade II Vegeta by a wide margin.

Overall, YES.

 

[Tapion]

Sorry, but I can hardly agr

That doesn't change anything. He couldn't see Goku getting any stronger, so that's why he made SSJ up.

False. He actually stated he didn't have the time to come up with elaborate ways, so he went for the simpler route.

Super does explains this, actually. Goku has absorbed the godly power and turned it into his base, so that places him worlds above Mr Boo. Some people to argue that Base Goku isn't above Mr Boo as well, but that's stupid.

I guess you also believe Kid Boo is stronger than Beerus now, since EoZ Goku was looking forward to fighting him again and regarded him as the mightiest foe he had ever faced. I don't argue retcons.

I'm waiting for you to counter it. Every time i post Vegeta's statement someone comes to me with "Limits are a throw away line" and i've yet to see a direct counter to it.

Vegeta's Super Saiyan were also his limits until they weren't.

There's absolutely zero evidence Boo Arc SSJ Goku is > Cell Games SSJ Goku.

Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P7.2-3
Context: after Goku says he’ll enter the tournament
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this. You’d better brace yourself. I’ve improved quite a lot.”
Goku: “Me too, Vegeta.”

Wrong.

And isn't Super Saiyan 3 the limit? The chapter where SSJ3 debuts is called "The limit", and it's stated Toriyama made SSJG up because he couldn't make Goku any stronger.

One, he said main characters, plural. Second, if we are going to use Super to argue, Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta was stated to have had his hidden power drawn out to his limits by Babidi, too. Yet despite the fact that SSj2 level is as far as his limits get, he thoroughly surpassed his limits in the battle against Beerus just by being enraged. Ergo, this is wrong at best.

I think you missed the point here. Why is Trunks sounding uncertain ("Seemed") if it's just about becoming Grade II? It's a rather notable transformation for Trunks to sound so unsure of when Vegeta achieved it. Unless he's not specifically talking about Grade II, which is my point here.

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P9.5
Narrator: “Piccolo and the other two seemed paralyzed from their fear of Freeza, whose battle power was in a completely different dimension, and they couldn’t even move…”

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

"Seemed" is being used rhetorically here, as it consistently is when statements similar to this are made. So no, Trunks is not uncertain.

It's literally stated FPSSJ is above SSJ in the Boo Arc.

No, this is never stated. That's just you putting a spin on the quote. I can take things out of context, too:

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

FPSSj by itself is stated by the same Gohan not to surpass the Super Saiyan wall. Afterall, he refers to Super Saiyan 2 as the version that has surpassed it. See how it's convenient when we select quotes?

Not really. If he just needed to train a bit in order to surpass Vegeta, then why all the talk about transcending the Super Saiyan? You're just ignoring their statements for the sake of your own ideas.

You are the one who made up a Super Saiyan Grade 1.5 that is pure headcanon as far as any sort of Dragon Ball media goes, but see, that's what Vegeta tells Goku. As far as Goku himself goes, he worked to completely master Super Saiyan itself, and this is what he ended up accomplishing according to the statements.

And if we're going with Anime guidebooks, the guidebook that gave the Grade forms' names says "Grade 4" is stronger than Grade 3:

...That's not actually stated. By 4 Super Saiyans, they are obviously talking about Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan and Goku. They literally proceed to list 5, not 4, Grades of Super Saiyan, at a time where Gohan's SSj2 state was believed to be nothing but a variation of the other Super Saiyan Grades, so they're obviously not talking about the grades. How did you even arrive to this interpretation?

The guidebook lists all of the increases provided by Grade 4, and it literally mentions nothing about powe boostr:

Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!

So no, this is false.

And Daizenshuu 2 says Goku has drawn his power to his limits:

Sure he has. He has become stronger.

Not really. Not only the way Steve Simmons translated it makes it closer to my own interpretation, but the statement would be redundant if it were merely about going 100%. The strain of Super Saiyan already was minimal (Only being a factor in fights when Goku was suffering from a heart desease), unlike say, the Grade forms that are actually stated to be strainful. And your interpretation gets contradicted anyway when Goku powers up into 50% of his power and surpasses Grade II Vegeta by a wide margin.

Except the actual guidebooks state the strain removal refers to the strain of normal Super Saiyan, so this is wrong.

Anyway, I'll be going to sleep now because I have work tomorrow, but I have to say this is getting tiresome and repetitive.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah run away u loser we all have our stuff to do. I'll likely reply that by tomorrow, but i doubt we'll even get to page 6 that way.

It didn't have to be like this, Tapion. If you had returned like two weeks earlier we'd be agreeing all over this thread (Other than perhaps Base Saiyans vs Pic) 2

 

[p123]

Nothing suggests Freeza > Base except the anime which the manga clearly disregards. The manga has Goku go immediately into Super Saiyan.

The anime is silly.

Freeza > Base Goku > Base Gotenks is ridiculous and impossible.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Chapter: 420 (DBZ 226), P6.2
Context: after Trunks blows Cell out of the city
Cell: “…Looks like you really have improved…”

Cell just got finished disregarding Trunks, only to comment on his improvement after being hit with the kiai. If there was no notable change in power, why would he state such a thing? At the very least, can you agree Base Trunks is comfortably beyond where his Base level was during his first appearance?

 

[Victorious]

Nothing suggests Freeza > Base except the anime which the manga clearly disregards. The manga has Goku go immediately into Super Saiyan.

The anime is silly.

Freeza > Base Goku > Base Gotenks is ridiculous and impossible.

So in the Manga of Super Beerus never says that statement? Wow

 

[p123]

Yep, it's a huge deal. The manga has made some key decisions not to mention certain things.

Goku automatically goes into Super Saiyan, there's no talk of Freeza > Goku.

Remember, Goku is probably somewhat relevant to Gotenks by now, so imagine Freeza > Base Gotenks. That's absurd.

 

[ahill1]

Nothing suggests Freeza > Base except the anime which the manga clearly disregards. The manga has Goku go immediately into Super Saiyan.

The anime is silly.

Freeza > Base Goku > Base Gotenks is ridiculous and impossible.

So in the Manga of Super Beerus never says that statement? Wow

Actually in the manga Beerus says "now I see how you defeated Freeza" when Goku turns into a SSJ2... he didn't mention anything when Goku fought as SSJ. If we isolate the manga line to the story told before, we'd get an implication that Freeza > Goku SSJ (fighting Beerus) hahahaah.

 

[p123]

Haha sure

 

[Void]

Beerus says 'Its no surprise you were able to defeat Freeza' which just tells us SS2 Goku >>>>>> Freeza.

 

[ahill1]

Beerus says 'Its no surprise you were able to defeat Freeza' which just tells us SS2 Goku >>>>>> Freeza.

He should have said the same upon testing SSJ Goku's power. Why it's no surprise only when Goku turns into a ssj2? Not suggesting that Freeza is above Goku ssj, only that the way Toyo structured that was strange.