PSSJB >>> SSJB (Bursts) = SSJB (FP) > SSJB (Incomplete)?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hm... maybe.

I have:
SSJB Vegeta (Bursts) > SSJR Goku Black > SSJB Vegeta (Normal) >= SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai) > SSJG Vegeta > SSJB Vegeta (Tired)

First, I think attacking in bursts is definitely stronger. The power is much more focused and concentrated.

Second, I think Vegeta was a bit stronger than SSJ Goku Black at first, but his power was fading and Black got the upperhand by the end. I think his 2nd Zenkai was just SSJR.

And finally, I'm sure Vegeta was also using SSJB to defend himself.

 

[Papasmurf]

Second, I think Vegeta was a bit stronger than SSJ Goku Black at first, but his power was fading and Black got the upperhand by the end. I think his 2nd Zenkai was just SSJR.

Nah his 2nd Zenkai itself and transforming to SSJR are separate things. Toriyama clearly states that his Rose form is an SSJ form of a slightly different color, accentuating the fact that it is a separate form. It's not like SPC which is just full power PC with a Zenkai (which was never noted to be a transformation). Black noted that his cells were becoming one with his godly soul before the healing process was even completed, and it was after that completion that he powered up to Rose with a shout.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nah his 2nd Zenkai itself and transforming to SSJR are separate things. Toriyama clearly states that his Rose form is an SSJ form of a slightly different color, accentuating the fact that it is a separate form. It's not like SPC which is just full power PC with a Zenkai (which was never noted to be a transformation). Black noted that his cells were becoming one with his godly soul before the healing process was even completed, and it was after that completion that he powered up to Rose with a shout.

The Zenkai boost was him unlocking the form. Otherwise where is SSJR coming from?

 

[Papasmurf]

The Zenkai boost was him unlocking the form. Otherwise where is SSJR coming from?

SSJ and SSJB are different things after the latter is unlocked so I think even post-Rose Black can still go SSJ, but since Rose is stronger and there isn't a huge difference in strain and even in power between the forms he keeps using Rose. Kind of like why Trunks stopped using SSJ1 after unlocking SSJ2.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ and SSJB are different things after the latter is unlocked so I think even post-Rose Black can still go SSJ, but since Rose is stronger and there isn't a huge difference in strain and even in power between the forms he keeps using Rose. Kind of like why Trunks stopped using SSJ1 after unlocking SSJ2.

Meaning, unlocking this new transformation was his Zenkai boost.

 

[Papasmurf]

Meaning, unlocking this new transformation was his Zenkai boost.

He had to physically activate Rose after he was already healed, which is why I think the two power ups are separate

 

[Goku9001]

I don't know. By this logic he would be even stronger than SSJR Goku Black, but I don't think that's implied. Let's ee what the others think.

@Goku9001 @SSJ2 @Animelover5487 @Kenshi

Goku and Trunks seemed to think Vegeta's loss against Goku Black was attributed to power which is why they gave him a sensu bean to invoke a zenkai. Immediately upon taking the sensu bean, we see Blue Vegeta struggle against SSJ Goku Black so I don't think Goku or Vegeta were as powerful as SSJ Goku Black let alone SSJR Goku Black. That changed once both Goku and Vegeta powered up tremendously.

I also don't think Blue bursts > Blue (Full Power). Goku blatantly describes Vegeta's switches as something Goku did during Hit. However, Goku could only do it once whereas Vegeta could do it multiple times which enabled him to retain his stamina.

I believe you also mentioned to me how Blue Goku did better against Merged Zamasu than Vegeta did even after being exhausted from using the Mafuba. I believe you also told me how Perfect Blue Vegeta reached Perfected Blue Goku's power after some training. I would probably have the following chain.

Merged Zamasu ~ Perfected Blue Goku > Blue Goku > Blue Vegeta (Bursts) ~ Blue Vegeta > SSJR Goku Black > God Vegeta > SSJ Goku Black > Blue Goku & Blue Vegeta (Time Skip 1)

 

[SIAD]

The other thing I realized is that Future Trunks must have gotten much stronger when he trained with Vegeta, since Goku Black Base played with Future Trunks SSJ2 "Improved", but then a much stronger version of Goku Black transformed into SSJR to defeat to Future Trunks SSJ2 "Improved".

I'm not saying that Future Trunks SSJ2 "Improved" (Chapter 22) > Goku Black SSJ (Peak), just that it catches my attention as in Chapter 22, they show how I was going to do the fight between Future Trunks SSJ2 "Improved" vs Goku Black Base. Then they show us Goku Black SSJR defeating Future Trunks.

All this makes me think that Future Trunks SSJ2 "Improved" (Post training with Vegeta) > Goku Black Base (Peak).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku and Trunks seemed to think Vegeta's loss against Goku Black was attributed to power which is why they gave him a sensu bean to invoke a zenkai. Immediately upon taking the sensu bean, we see Blue Vegeta struggle against SSJ Goku Black so I don't think Goku or Vegeta were as powerful as SSJ Goku Black let alone SSJR Goku Black. That changed once both Goku and Vegeta powered up tremendously.

I also don't think Blue bursts > Blue (Full Power). Goku blatantly describes Vegeta's switches as something Goku did during Hit. However, Goku could only do it once whereas Vegeta could do it multiple times which enabled him to retain his stamina.

I believe you also mentioned to me how Blue Goku did better against Merged Zamasu than Vegeta did even after being exhausted from using the Mafuba. I believe you also told me how Perfect Blue Vegeta reached Perfected Blue Goku's power after some training. I would probably have the following chain.

Merged Zamasu ~ Perfected Blue Goku > Blue Goku > Blue Vegeta (Bursts) ~ Blue Vegeta > SSJR Goku Black > God Vegeta > SSJ Goku Black > Blue Goku & Blue Vegeta (Time Skip 1)

But you're only looking at half the picture that way. We were already told SSJB had stamina issues, and Vegeta specifically focused on them during his Rosat training. He may have gained some power, but the main thing was finding a better way to use Blue. SSJ Black still got a solid Zenkai out of Vegeta, so I'd say the SSJBs were at least as strong as he is.

Attacking in bursts means the power will come out more concentrated, plus the power isn't leaking out if he's attacking so fast, so I'd say it's definitely stronger. It feels similar in principle to a Ki Blast with how they focus the power specifically for one attack and his raises their power, only this is being done with a transformation instead.

Looking at the fight again, Goku doesn't really do better than Vegeta. Zamasu instantly taps Vegeta out of the form, but keeps toying with Goku and waving Goku away without even touching him. Sure Goku blows a hole in Zamasu too, but a few chapters later Vegeta blows Zamasu into pieces with the Gamma Burst Flash. Vegeta's training was mostly focused on perfecting Blue, and since Bulma was pregnant he probably didn't train that much anyway.