Roshi's max power state

[Spiral-Force]

^ Shoudn't Kame-Sennin bulk up everytime he uses the KMHMH then?

This is about his MAX Power Kamehameha, which Yamcha's explanation is based on.

No it doesn't. It doesn't imply that he's referring to a version that only Roshi is able to do. The legendary move is the Kamehameha. You're heavily misinterpreting it.

Roshi bulking up is what led to Yamcha anticipating and describing the Kamehameha. This indicates that Yamcha knew about Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, which the MAX Power state was for. Whether or not Roshi is the only one capable of doing it is irrelevant to the conversation, and — until the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai — Roshi was the only person believed to have been able to do a Kamehameha anyway, so Yamcha had no one else to base his judgement on besides Roshi.

If Yamcha's statement applies to the Kamehameha in general, then that would make Roshi's MAX Power state pointless, and there'd be no need for variations like his MAX Power Kamehameha or Goku's Super Kamehameha.

 

[Future Warrior]

Roshi bulking up is what led to Yamcha anticipating and describing the Kamehameha. This indicates that Yamcha knew about Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, which the MAX Power state was for. Whether or not Roshi is the only one capable of doing it is irrelevant to the conversation, and — until the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai — Roshi was the only person believed to have been able to do a Kamehameha anyway, so Yamcha had no one else to base his judgement on besides Roshi.

If Yamcha's statement applies to the Kamehameha in general, then that would make Roshi's MAX Power state pointless, and there'd be no need for variations like his MAX Power Kamehameha or Goku's Super Kamehameha.

From what I understand, you believe that it's referring to Roshi's own version of it because Yamucha makes the statement about the Kamehameha right after he starts bulking up? He knows that Roshi's well known for his use of the Kamehameha so he would be expecting him to use the technique that fires a beam of energy to destroy a mountain after using his full power.

Roshi's Max Power state is no different than Freeza's Max Power state. Both bulk up due to the stress of their power. Max Power is his Kamehameha at his max power, as the name suggest.

 

[Spiral-Force]

From what I understand, you believe that it's referring to Roshi's own version of it because Yamucha makes the statement about the Kamehameha right after he starts bulking up? He knows that Roshi's well known for his use of the Kamehameha so he would be expecting him to use the technique that fires a beam of energy to destroy a mountain after using his full power.

Roshi's Max Power state is no different than Freeza's Max Power state. Both bulk up due to the stress of their power. Max Power is his Kamehameha at his max power, as the name suggest.

It's not a matter of belief; it's practically what the manga points towards. Yamcha made no mention or suggestion of the Kamehameha until Roshi changed form, so it appears that Yamcha had knowledge about the Kamehameha that is at maximum power. And since — as you pointed out — Roshi is well known for his use of the Kamehameha, if anything, that further supports Yamcha's awareness of its capabilities. By the way, even a standard Kamehameha is technically Roshi's "own version of it" as well since he's the one that created the technique in the first place. So far, it seems like you haven't put much thought into your viewpoint. You're comfortable with settling for a vague interpretation instead of looking at things more closely and accurately.

Was Frieza's 100% power ever stated to bring out all of his dormant power too? If so, I'd like to see evidence for it. If not, then that means there's a distinction between their forms, and that shouldn't be overlooked just because of similar naming or physical size.

 

[Future Warrior]

So far, it seems like you haven't put much thought into your viewpoint. You're comfortable with settling for a vague interpretation instead of looking at things more closely and accurately.

Nah, I'm just not inclined to over complicate a single sentence that's obviously describing the nature of the move itself. You're hung up on the word ''Dormant Energy''. It's referring to the nature of Ki/Chi/Qi (which is effectively your dormant energy) which is the first proper introduction we get to it in the manga. For some reason you're thinking of it in terms of some DBZ esque potential unlock like Ultimate Gohan.

 

[Dagon]

I like to think Roshi is trying to draw from the power he used to have in his youth, but at his old age his fragiel body can't tap into that power without deforming.

I don't think so. I think that in order for Roshi to reach a power level equal to what he had in his youth, he needs to use the power-weighting buff technique. It's not that his body "deforms" when the tries to power up, he enlarges his muscles to power up.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Nah, I'm just not inclined to over complicate a single sentence that's obviously describing the nature of the move itself. You're hung up on the word ''Dormant Energy''. It's referring to the nature of Ki/Chi/Qi (which is effectively your dormant energy) which is the first proper introduction we get to it in the manga. For some reason you're thinking of it in terms of some DBZ esque potential unlock like Ultimate Gohan.

If it was just about the nature of the move itself, then what necessitates Roshi's bulking? And why is it possible for the KHH to be further strengthened? If you can't answer these questions without going by the manga (or even the anime, at least), then why should your logic be taken seriously?

The story establishes that a character may be able to control their ki and use it for a full power attack, but they still have energy deep inside them that can't be brought out without a variable of some kind, such as a technique or transformation. Terms like "dormant energy" or "hidden strength" are usually used to describe this type of energy and distinguish it from a character's normal power. Roshi can do a Kamehameha in his base form without any trouble, and he was never implied to have a problem with ki manipulation. So it's not that he's incompetent in some way, if that's what you're thinking. He just found a method to use literally all of his power.

Also, the concept of a potential unlock wasn't just a DBZ thing. For example, it was a major story element of the King Piccolo Arc in the original DB.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I like to think Roshi is trying to draw from the power he used to have in his youth, but at his old age his fragiel body can't tap into that power without deforming.

I don't think so. I think that in order for Roshi to reach a power level equal to what he had in his youth, he needs to use the power-weighting buff technique. It's not that his body "deforms" when the tries to power up, he enlarges his muscles to power up.

Potato potato. Either way he’s powering up at the cost of his stamina.

 

[Future Warrior]

The story establishes that a character may be able to control their ki and use it for a full power attack, but they still have energy deep inside them that can't be brought out without a variable of some kind, such as a technique or transformation. Terms like "dormant energy" or "hidden strength" are usually used to describe this type of energy and distinguish it from a character's normal power. Roshi can do a Kamehameha in his base form without any trouble, and he was never implied to have a problem with ki manipulation. So it's not that he's incompetent in some way, if that's what you're thinking. He just found a method to use literally all of his power

Chapter: 14, P8.1-2
Gyuumao: “H-h-here it comes! Lord Muten Roshi’s ‘Kamehameha’!”
Puar: “In-incredible! Lord Yamcha, what the heck is the ‘Kamehameha’…?!”
Yamcha: “The ‘Kamehameha’…! It’s Muten Roshi’s grand technique, which is said to condense the latent energy within his b-body, and fire it out in one burst…! To think that I’d be able to see it with my own eyes…!”

Spoiler

Well would you look at that, the exact same pronunciation.

 

[Dagon]

The story establishes that a character may be able to control their ki and use it for a full power attack, but they still have energy deep inside them that can't be brought out without a variable of some kind, such as a technique or transformation. Terms like "dormant energy" or "hidden strength" are usually used to describe this type of energy and distinguish it from a character's normal power. Roshi can do a Kamehameha in his base form without any trouble, and he was never implied to have a problem with ki manipulation. So it's not that he's incompetent in some way, if that's what you're thinking. He just found a method to use literally all of his power.

It seems to be a common idea among fans I've talked with that they view "hidden power" and "dormant energy" as if that energy does exist inside the person but is inaccessible somehow. Like an actual reserve tank of gas separate from the main tank. Is that how you view it?

I don't think its meant to be interpreted like that. I think hidden power is more so meant to be like shifting into a higher gear. Like if your car was locked from going into second gear, it's capabilities would be quite limited. The car can still operate at "full effort" so to speak at gear 1 but gears 2 and up offer more performance.

Ki of course comes from Qi in China, and the ancient Chinese people didn't know about Oxygen. They believed the world was surrounded by a field of energy that gave them life force. They understood that breathing provided energy so they thought the energy itself game from the universe around them. They didn't even comprehend that air was made of particulate matter; that air had substance. So the concept of Qi comes from a misinterpretation of air, wind, and oxygen.
Ancient Chinese and Japanese people thought they could take the Qi/Ki they get from breathing and store it within themselves. That's the psychology behind the art of Qigong. Qi literally means "breath" in Chinese.

If it was just about the nature of the move itself, then what necessitates Roshi's bulking? And why is it possible for the KHH to be further strengthened? If you can't answer these questions without going by the manga (or even the anime, at least), then why should your logic be taken seriously?

A physically strong body can generate more ki. Roshi's old frail body can only generate so much ki. It's the same principle why they even train their bodies at all. If their physical state didn't matter, they'd focus more on non-physical training like meditation and image training.

Roshi's power when he was young and had a body more like Tenshinhan's is the same level as old Roshi's buff form. Roshi got so old that in order to achieve a power level equal to his younger self, he has to bulk himself up significantly more than even when he was young.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Chapter: 14, P8.1-2
Gyuumao: “H-h-here it comes! Lord Muten Roshi’s ‘Kamehameha’!”
Puar: “In-incredible! Lord Yamcha, what the heck is the ‘Kamehameha’…?!”
Yamcha: “The ‘Kamehameha’…! It’s Muten Roshi’s grand technique, which is said to condense the latent energy within his b-body, and fire it out in one burst…! To think that I’d be able to see it with my own eyes…!”

Spoiler

Well would you look at that, the exact same pronunciation.

So not only did you avoid my questions, but you think those quotes help your argument somehow?

The first quote carries the same meaning as the VIZ quote/manga panel that I initially posted. Latent energy is just another term for dormant or hidden energy. Looks like it's you that is getting caught up on words here, instead of understanding the actual significance of them. The second quote changes nothing. Unlike Roshi, Videl didn't know how to access her ki at all, so for her it's completely latent. This relates back to what I said about the use of this energy requiring a variable. In Videl's case, the variable was training.

 

[Future Warrior]

So not only did you avoid my questions, but you think those quotes help your argument somehow?

Yeah, pretty much. You're questions were already answered prior as far as I'm aware. If not, you should articulate them better and why they matter on the subject we're discussing. I'll answer them then.

The first quote carries the same meaning as the VIZ quote/manga panel that I initially posted. Latent energy is just another term for dormant or hidden energy. Looks like it's you that is getting caught up on words here, instead of understanding the actual significance of them. The second quote changes nothing. Unlike Roshi, Videl didn't know how to access her ki at all, so for her it's completely latent. This relates back to what I said about the use of this energy requiring a variable. In Videl's case, the variable was training.

I used the herms quote so that you wouldn't try to argue that hidden power and latent power somehow mean different things, so I chose to use evidence where the pronunciation was the exact same.

Not only is this the first true introduction to the use of Ki, but it's also coming from the perspective of Yamucha who has very little awareness of it if at all. This argument works in my favor both ways.

 

[Spiral-Force]

It seems to be a common idea among fans I've talked with that they view "hidden power" and "dormant energy" as if that energy does exist inside the person but is inaccessible somehow. Like an actual reserve tank of gas separate from the main tank. Is that how you view it?

I don't think its meant to be interpreted like that. I think hidden power is more so meant to be like shifting into a higher gear. Like if your car was locked from going into second gear, it's capabilities would be quite limited. The car can still operate at "full effort" so to speak at gear 1 but gears 2 and up offer more performance.

Your analogy with the gears suits more towards controlled states of increase, i.e. transformations that characters can access at will. The correlation here is that there is control over these gears/transformations. But this doesn't apply universally; dormant energy can be quite spontaneous and irregular. When brought out in moments of strong emotions, it's a wild card: both in potency and duration. To relate this back to your analogy, it would be like if "gear 2" allowed for twice as much speed as "gear 1" in one instance, but then five times as much speed in another instance without any manual configuration or modification.

Ki of course comes from Qi in China, and the ancient Chinese people didn't know about Oxygen. They believed the world was surrounded by a field of energy that gave them life force. They understood that breathing provided energy so they thought the energy itself game from the universe around them. They didn't even comprehend that air was made of particulate matter; that air had substance. So the concept of Qi comes from a misinterpretation of air, wind, and oxygen.
Ancient Chinese and Japanese people thought they could take the Qi/Ki they get from breathing and store it within themselves. That's the psychology behind the art of Qigong. Qi literally means "breath" in Chinese.

How does this relate to Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga, if you can give a precise example? While a lot of aspects or beliefs about existence may be used as a basis for a fictional series, the creator has freedom to depict whatever they wish in their fictional universe and establish it as fact. There's no requirement of adhering strictly to the real world. Something that may be considered to be crazy or unbelievable in real life can be inserted into a story, and the audience maintains a suspension of disbelief towards it for the sake of enjoyment. Did you intend to use this information to make a point, or you just felt like including it?

A physically strong body can generate more ki. Roshi's old frail body can only generate so much ki. It's the same principle why they even train their bodies at all. If their physical state didn't matter, they'd focus more on non-physical training like meditation and image training.

Roshi's power when he was young and had a body more like Tenshinhan's is the same level as old Roshi's buff form. Roshi got so old that in order to achieve a power level equal to his younger self, he has to bulk himself up significantly more than even when he was young.

While Roshi may have been more muscular and fit as a youngster, his natural build was never on par with his MAX Power state or even close to that. We also never got an indication that his ki was obstructed by his physique as an old man, or that his bulk was just his way of getting back to his prime. These appear to be just ideas that you've formed with no backing from the source material.

Yeah, pretty much. You're questions were already answered prior as far as I'm aware. If not, you should articulate them better and why they matter on the subject we're discussing. I'll answer them then.

You answered them? With your opinion or with the manga? Because I definitely don't recall you doing the latter. The questions I asked were clear and concise. But since you seem to be confused for whatever reason, point me to what you're confused about and we'll take it from there.

I used the herms quote so that you wouldn't try to argue that hidden power and latent power somehow mean different things, so I chose to use evidence where the pronunciation was the exact same.

Looks like that backfired on you, since your argument wasn't boosted in any way by those quotes.

Not only is this the first true introduction to the use of Ki, but it's also coming from the perspective of Yamucha who has very little awareness of it if at all. This argument works in my favor both ways.

So are you now arguing that Yamcha's explanation was wrong? If he has very little awareness about it, then what would be the point of his explanation being included in the narrative? Your argument is driven by subjectivity and isn't even consistent with itself.

 

[Future Warrior]

You answered them? With your opinion or with the manga? Because I definitely don't recall you doing the latter. The questions I asked were clear and concise. But since you seem to be confused for whatever reason, point me to what you're confused about and we'll take it from there.

You asked me why Roshi gets buff, which I'm sure I've answered before. I don't know what you mean about the Kamehameha being strengthened.

So are you now arguing that Yamcha's explanation was wrong? If he has very little awareness about it, then what would be the point of his explanation being included in the narrative? Your argument is driven by subjectivity and isn't even consistent with itself.

It was a way of reconciling on your behalf, which doesn't act as a foundation of my argument. The explanation still works as a way to teach the audience about life energy, which is a latent power within everybody. Roshi can use this latent power within a confined space. Where is the contradiction?

And Ki is still generally a latent power of any users ,just not in the same way as you think of it as with Goku's Super God Water and Grand Elder's potential unlock. Ki control is not the norm for lifeforms, it takes years of practice for most to harness it. The Z Senshi don't constantly walk around casually harnessing their Ki like that, they utilize it mostly during battle. That's why it's still by definition a latent power that is used. I think the only subjectivity here is you assuming that Gohan is making a distinction between Videl's case and another case. Gohan is literally just explaining ''Ki''.

 

[ahill1]

I don't know what you mean about the Kamehameha being strengthened.

I think that like the Super KMHMH, post Saiyajin's saga KMHMH (Piccolo saying Cell's is weak since it was based off Saiyajins saga).

 

[Spiral-Force]

You asked me why Roshi gets buff, which I'm sure I've answered before. I don't know what you mean about the Kamehameha being strengthened.

You said Roshi's buff form is exactly like Frieza's buff form, but you haven't backed that up with anything concrete. In Roshi's case, we know that his buff form gives him access to all of his dormant power, but you've yet to show evidence that the same applies to Frieza.

Think about your argument and examine if it really makes sense to you: you believe that Yamcha's statement is applicable to the Kamehameha in general, if that's the case: then a standard Kamehameha should allow a character to use all of their dormant energy. Since Roshi is capable of a standard Kamehameha in base form, his MAX Power state would be obsolete by your logic since the power of the move would be filled to the brim already. The MAX Power Kamehameha and Super Kamehameha are stronger versions of the Kamehameha. Again, going by your logic, there's nothing to increase if all dormant energy is already put into use with a standard Kamehameha. All it takes is a tiny bit of critical thinking to identify that your argument is unstable.

It was a way of reconciling on your behalf, which doesn't act as a foundation of my argument. The explanation still works as a way to teach the audience about life energy, which is a latent power within everybody. Roshi can use this latent power within a confined space. Where is the contradiction?

And Ki is still generally a latent power of any users ,just not in the same way as you think of it as with Goku's Super God Water and Grand Elder's potential unlock. Ki control is not the norm for lifeforms, it takes years of practice for most to harness it. The Z Senshi don't constantly walk around casually harnessing their Ki like that, they utilize it mostly during battle. That's why it's still by definition a latent power that is used. I think the only subjectivity here is you assuming that Gohan is making a distinction between Videl's case and another case. Gohan is literally just explaining ''Ki''.

I never said Gohan's statement was a contradiction; I see no reason why it can't coincide with Yamcha's statement. Gohan was speaking directly to Videl about her latent energy, which again, happens to be latent because she couldn't access any of it at all (before Gohan trained her). The same applies to any other lifeform that is incapable of ki manipulation. Latent refers to something that is existing, but not yet clear, active or well developed; that's the dictionary definition. That fits perfectly with how the story depicts it. It's not something that can just be accessed by merely possessing ki within oneself. There's always another factor that initialises it. This is often exemplified through Gohan's rage boosts throughout the series, which allow him to temporarily use power that is normally not accessible to him. Special techniques like the Super God Water and Old Kai's potential unlock ability are methods of drawing this power out so that a character can use it at will (and in Old Kai's case, he allows you to go far beyond your limits). Life energy is its own thing, and it's not commonly used for attacks because it shortens one's life span (e.g. Tien's Kikoho).

 

[Future Warrior]

You said Roshi's buff form is exactly like Frieza's buff form, but you haven't backed that up with anything concrete. In Roshi's case, we know that his buff form gives him access to all of his dormant power, but you've yet to show evidence that the same applies to Frieza.

Think about your argument and examine if it really makes sense to you: you believe that Yamcha's statement is applicable to the Kamehameha in general, if that's the case: then a standard Kamehameha should allow a character to use all of their dormant energy. Since Roshi is capable of a standard Kamehameha in base form, his MAX Power state would be obsolete by your logic since the power of the move would be filled to the brim already. The MAX Power Kamehameha and Super Kamehameha are stronger versions of the Kamehameha. Again, going by your logic, there's nothing to increase if all dormant energy is already put into use with a standard Kamehameha. All it takes is a tiny bit of critical thinking to identify that your argument is unstable.

It's the exact same because that's what the wording suggest. MAX means 100%. It's not MAX if it's going above that. The issue here is that we disagree on what constitutes as latent power. It's just another word for hidden or concealed. Freeza's full power can just as easily be labeled as latent power because it's something that's hidden under his belt. It doesn't have to mean anything about being currently inaccessible.

Firstly, the Herms quote doesn't say anything about using all of his latent power. If that were the case then anybody shooting a Kamehameha would be too drained to continue fighting. Secondly, the Kamehameha gets improved because they can distribute more of a percentage of their total Ki to the attack, among other things. His MAX power Kamehameha is more powerful because it scales to his current Ki amount.

I never said Gohan's statement was a contradiction; I see no reason why it can't coincide with Yamcha's statement. Gohan was speaking directly to Videl about her latent energy, which again, happens to be latent because she couldn't access any of it at all (before Gohan trained her). The same applies to any other lifeform that is incapable of ki manipulation. Latent refers to something that is existing, but not yet clear, active or well developed; that's the dictionary definition. That fits perfectly with how the story depicts it. It's not something that can just be accessed by merely possessing ki within oneself. There's always another factor that initialises it.

I meant the contradiction that you are accusing me on how Yamucha is using the term ''Dormant Power'' instead of a different wording, and I'm saying there is no such contradiction.

To not be yet manifested doesn't mean not being capable of tapped into at will. The user is choosing not to manifest it, which still constitutes as being latent or hidden. You keep saying Gohan is talking about Videl's relation to Ki, but you still haven't provided any evidence of that. I don't need to prove that he's giving her a general explanation of what Ki is because that's the question that Videl is literally asking.

This is often exemplified through Gohan's rage boosts throughout the series, which allow him to temporarily use power that is normally not accessible to him. Special techniques like the Super God Water and Old Kai's potential unlock ability are methods of drawing this power out so that a character can use it at will (and in Old Kai's case, he allows you to go far beyond your limits).

What does this have to do with anything?

Life energy is its own thing, and it's not commonly used for attacks because it shortens one's life span (e.g. Tien's Kikoho).

Ki = Life energy (the same term used to describe Roshi's electricity move in fact if you watch the anime scene). Unlike Roshi, this is actually an example where a character is using an attack that is using power currently unusable in normal situations, which is what makes it life threatening (akin to Kaio-Ken).

 

[Spiral-Force]

It's the exact same because that's what the wording suggest. MAX means 100%. It's not MAX if it's going above that. The issue here is that we disagree on what constitutes as latent power. It's just another word for hidden or concealed. Freeza's full power can just as easily be labeled as latent power because it's something that's hidden under his belt. It doesn't have to mean anything about being currently inaccessible.

Maximum (or max for short) means the greatest amount possible, but you must consider the context in this circumstance. Roshi indeed used his maximum power, but his dormant energy was also in full use. The same wasn't said for Frieza, so it can be concluded that these situations are not equivalent. You're speaking of latent power as if it's just a matter of one's ki not being displayed outwardly, but the series never portrays it as loosely as that. When a character has power within their control and that power is hidden/concealed, we never see a character say something along the lines of: "oh, he's making his power dormant right now" or "I can make my power latent if I choose". This energy is not stored away through a conscious effort, and if it's simply just referring to the energy that a being has at their disposal, then what's the point of adding a label (e.g. dormant, latent, hidden, etc.) to this energy? Why can't it just be referred to as energy? You're trying to group it all into one category, even though the series never conformed to that approach. We can argue about wording all day, but the fact of the matter is that the series itself acknowledges that there is energy within beings that is locked away and is only tapped into through specialised means. In some cases, the character may not even know that this energy exists (like Krillin until Guru unlocked his potential), which further reinforces that this isn't part of one's standard power.

Firstly, the Herms quote doesn't say anything about using all of his latent power. If that were the case then anybody shooting a Kamehameha would be too drained to continue fighting. Secondly, the Kamehameha gets improved because they can distribute more of a percentage of their total Ki to the attack, among other things. His MAX power Kamehameha is more powerful because it scales to his current Ki amount.

You're blatantly flip-flopping with this. Does maximum not mean maximum to you anymore then? Even when going by the Herms quote, it can still be inferred that Roshi uses all of his latent power since his "MAX" power was used. If there was still some latent power left that he didn't make use of, then that would go against what was portrayed. The Herms quote and the VIZ quote are both fine. The Kamehameha focuses the user's energy into a single point, so logically, strengthened variations use power that exceeds the user's regular ki supply. A character could use their full power and still continue using their ki for attacks afterwards. For example, the attack that Piccolo used to destroy the arena (during his fight with Goku) is stated to be his "Full Power Shockwave" in Daizenshuu 2, yet he was able to fight onwards and still use his ki for combat.

I meant the contradiction that you are accusing me on how Yamucha is using the term ''Dormant Power'' instead of a different wording, and I'm saying there is no such contradiction.


To not be yet manifested doesn't mean not being capable of tapped into at will. The user is choosing not to manifest it, which still constitutes as being latent or hidden. You keep saying Gohan is talking about Videl's relation to Ki, but you still haven't provided any evidence of that. I don't need to prove that he's giving her a general explanation of what Ki is because that's the question that Videl is literally asking.

Previously you said Yamcha had very little awareness of ki, so I questioned if you thought Yamcha was wrong or something. I'm not the one that tried to downplay him. I also made it clear that I don't see any contradiction between Yamcha's statement and Gohan's statement, so what exactly are you talking about?

The manifestation of one's latent/hidden power isn't a choice; it was never implied to be that simple. You pulled that out of thin air.

As you can see from the panel below, Gohan was speaking about the latent power in Videl's body (otherwise, who does 'your' refer to?). It was direct, one-to-one communication.

Additionally, I also clarified that the same applies to anyone else like Videl (before Gohan's training) - meaning, beings that don't know how to use their ki.

What does this have to do with anything?

It's reasoning as to why dormant power isn't just one's usual power, nor is it something that a character can decide to use without a special condition of some kind.

Ki = Life energy (the same term used to describe Roshi's electricity move in fact if you watch the anime scene). Unlike Roshi, this is actually an example where a character is using an attack that is using power currently unusable in normal situations, which is what makes it life threatening (akin to Kaio-Ken).

You hardly ever provide scans. Let's see the scan for "Ki = Life energy" as well as the anime statement for Roshi's move that you mentioned.

If ki equals life energy, wouldn't all full-power attacks be life-threatening, by that logic?

Tien can use the Kikoho whenever he wants regardless of the situation; he even spammed it against Semi-Perfect Cell. Moves like that are extremely risky to one's life and should be used with caution, but that's not the same as being unusable in terms of access.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Worth pointing out the Ki = life energy part is only partially correct. Life energy (genki) is an important component of Ki, but only 1/3 of one's total Ki when shouki and yuuki play a vital part as stated in the SEG and shown at many points in the franchise.

Tien can use the Kikoho whenever he wants regardless of the situation; he even spammed it against Semi-Perfect Cell.

To be fair, Tenshinhan specifically trained himself to utilise this variant over years of perfecting the technique rather than something he could just do at will through the Kikoho, hence the "Shin" (New) distinction.

 

[SIAD]

This is simply Old Piccolo Daimao (less than half power)> Kamehameha from Buff Roshi + Tenshinan (Kikoho / against Goku), as Roshi thought the only hope they had was asking Shen Long to kill Piccolo Daimao.

Tenshinhan didn't use the Kikoho 100% against Goku, as I needed a bit of his energy to stay upright after launching the attack.

 

[Future Warrior]

Maximum (or max for short) means the greatest amount possible, but you must consider the context in this circumstance. Roshi indeed used his maximum power, but his dormant energy was also in full use.

So now your saying MAX power Roshi means 100% but adding in ''100% and then some'' arbitrarily. And I thought I was the one flip flopping. Lack of self awareness much?

The same wasn't said for Frieza, so it can be concluded that these situations are not equivalent. You're speaking of latent power as if it's just a matter of one's ki not being displayed outwardly, but the series never portrays it as loosely as that. When a character has power within their control and that power is hidden/concealed, we never see a character say something along the lines of: "oh, he's making his power dormant right now" or "I can make my power latent if I choose". This energy is not stored away through a conscious effort, and if it's simply just referring to the energy that a being has at their disposal, then what's the point of adding a label (e.g. dormant, latent, hidden, etc.) to this energy? Why can't it just be referred to as energy? You're trying to group it all into one category, even though the series never conformed to that approach.

This may sound hard to believe, but languages allow for many things to not need to be described exclusively by one word. In other words, potato potato.

You're the one applying your own rules on terminology where it didn't exist in the first place.

We can argue about wording all day, but the fact of the matter is that the series itself acknowledges that there is energy within beings that is locked away and is only tapped into through specialised means. In some cases, the character may not even know that this energy exists (like Krillin until Guru unlocked his potential), which further reinforces that this isn't part of one's standard power.

Dude, what the hell is even this paragraph? Either your choosing to deflect my arguments for the purpose of stalling the debate because you have no actual argument of your own, or you're genuinely not paying attention or understanding anything that I'm saying. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this once that it's the latter.

I literally already said before that the latent power that is Ki is a different case from latent power brought out from things such as the Super God Water, Grand Elder, and Old Kaioshin. They are both accurate terms to use though. I never once implied that the power Kuririn achieved after his potential unlock was accessible to him prior to meeting Grand Elder at any point. I never once implied that all the potential that a person has can immediately be used.

I think it's in both of our best interest for you to not type useless fluff so that neither of us are wasting our precious times.

You're blatantly flip-flopping with this. Does maximum not mean maximum to you anymore then? Even when going by the Herms quote, it can still be inferred that Roshi uses all of his latent power since his "MAX" power was used. If there was still some latent power left that he didn't make use of, then that would go against what was portrayed. The Herms quote and the VIZ quote are both fine. The Kamehameha focuses the user's energy into a single point, so logically, strengthened variations use power that exceeds the user's regular ki supply. A character could use their full power and still continue using their ki for attacks afterwards. For example, the attack that Piccolo used to destroy the arena (during his fight with Goku) is stated to be his "Full Power Shockwave" in Daizenshuu 2, yet he was able to fight onwards and still use his ki for combat.

Ignoring the utter hypocrisy for the first two sentences, it seems like you lack the basic understanding of what Ki is, a power that is utilized by literally 99% of the characters in the DB verse.

In traditional Chinese culture, qi or ch'i is believed to be a vital force forming part of any living entity. Qi translates literally as "air" and figuratively as "material energy", "life force", or "energy flow". Qi is the central underlying principle in Chinese traditional medicine and in Chinese martial arts.

Qi/Chi literally means life force. Ki is actually just the Japanese pronunciation of that word.

Ki is basically what makes everything in the universe ''alive''. Ki is literally the energy that keeps you alive, hence the word life energy. Literally every living thing on earth has Ki/Life Energy, small insects and even grass. Humans have the intelligence to control and manipulate this energy through training.

When you see a character shooting beams at you, they are literally shooting their big load of life energy that's stored within their bodies at you. A Kamehameha more often than not is not 100% of Ki or nearly there either, because we see characters still continue fighting despite using the move. The amount of Ki used for the Kamehameha is not necessarily what makes it dangerous, it's the fact that it's condensed into a singular point that increases the destructive power of the move that makes it more potent than the total Ki supply that a user has at max. That's the advantage that Piccolo and Goku had against Raditz.

Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P6.2-3
Context: said as Goku charges up the Kamehameha.
Raditz: “Impossible!!! His battle power is rising!!! Battle power 924...!!!”
Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

When Roshi uses his maximum amount of Ki he can hold in his body, his Kamehameha becomes many times more powerful because the amount of Ki drawn from his current supply is multiplied. It's also reasonable to say that the current extent that he can distribute his Ki to the attack is perhaps at 50% (as an example), since we know it can be increased based on Goku's first Kamehameha being very meek in comparison as he lacked the proper training. It's his Kamehameha while in his MAX power state.

You know an actual example of a character using 100% of their Ki/Life energy into an attack? Majin Vegeta's final explosion. He's using every single shred of his Ki from his entire body to create a massive explosion to destroy Majin Boo. I'm sure you know what became of him in the aftermath. He literally became a shred of his utter self, a lifeless object. Just dust. It's what happens when a living being no longer has what makes him living, Ki.

I have never ever cared for what the guidebooks say, and I don't particularly understand why people like to use them. But whatever, I'll bite. The Daizenshuu literally agrees with the stance that I have.

Firstly for that Piccolo entry, he's emitting his Ki from his entire body to create an explosion. It's not saying he's literally using his entire reserves of energy into that attack. Secondly...

Final Last Attack:

Vegeta brought this out in order to defeat Majin Buu (good) in exchange for his own life. It's the ultimate self-destruction technique, which explodes all the energy in his body, enveloping the opponent. It creates a crater-shaped depression with a 1 kilometer diameter around the user, and had enough frightful destructive power to affect the Earth. (Daizenshuu 2, p.216)

''All'' of his energy. So clearly the Daizenshuu establishes that what Piccolo is doing is far different than what Vegeta is doing here due to their fates post-attack. This didn't work too well in your favor huh?

As you can see from the panel below, Gohan was speaking about the latent power in Videl's body (otherwise, who does 'your' refer to?). It was direct, one-to-one communication.

''Your'' in general terms. It's just basic english, he's not literally referring to Videl specifically.

It's reasoning as to why dormant power isn't just one's usual power, nor is it something that a character can decide to use without a special condition of some kind.

Basically pointless fluff.

Tien can use the Kikoho whenever he wants regardless of the situation; he even spammed it against Semi-Perfect Cell. Moves like that are extremely risky to one's life and should be used with caution, but that's not the same as being unusable in terms of access.

Kikoho takes some energy from his TOTAL Ki reserves from his entire potential (hence why it reduces his lifespan).