Roshi's max power state

[Spiral-Force]

To be fair, Tenshinhan specifically trained himself to utilise this variant over years of perfecting the technique rather than something he could just do at will through the Kikoho, hence the "Shin" (New) distinction.

The point is that it's a move that is accessible to him. If he wants to do a Kikoho or Shin Kikoho, the choice is in his hands.

So now your saying MAX power Roshi means 100% but adding in ''100% and then some'' arbitrarily. And I thought I was the one flip flopping. Lack of self awareness much?

I never attached a percentage to Roshi's form, and there's no need to. I gave you the dictionary definition for maximum, which again, means the greatest amount possible. Since Roshi used literally all of his power, this aligns perfectly with the definition of maximum.

This may sound hard to believe, but languages allow for many things to not need to be described exclusively by one word. In other words, potato potato.

You're the one applying your own rules on terminology where it didn't exist in the first place.

You didn't even address the main point, nor did you give any examples of dormant being used in a way that indicates suppression. So the one creating their own rules here is you. The manga takes precedence over what Future Warrior thinks.

Dude, what the hell is even this paragraph? Either your choosing to deflect my arguments for the purpose of stalling the debate because you have no actual argument of your own, or you're genuinely not paying attention or understanding anything that I'm saying. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this once that it's the latter.

I literally already said before that the latent power that is Ki is a different case from latent power brought out from things such as the Super God Water, Grand Elder, and Old Kaioshin. They are both accurate terms to use though. I never once implied that the power Kuririn achieved after his potential unlock was accessible to him prior to meeting Grand Elder at any point. I never once implied that all the potential that a person has can immediately be used.

I think it's in both of our best interest for you to not type useless fluff so that neither of us are wasting our precious times.

You're basically whining and making baseless accusations here.

Latent power is latent power... there's no difference in 'terms' since it's literally the same term. The way the term is used is consistent in the story. Also, not long ago, you said that the manifestation of a user's latent power is their choice, but that is refuted by the Krillin example.

You talk about wasting time, but you often type entire paragraphs that are a product of your opinion and nothing more.

Ignoring the utter hypocrisy for the first two sentences

There's no hypocrisy on my end. This is yet another instance of you making an empty accusation.

it seems like you lack the basic understanding of what Ki is, a power that is utilized by literally 99% of the characters in the DB verse.

In traditional Chinese culture, qi or ch'i is believed to be a vital force forming part of any living entity. Qi translates literally as "air" and figuratively as "material energy", "life force", or "energy flow". Qi is the central underlying principle in Chinese traditional medicine and in Chinese martial arts.

Qi/Chi literally means life force. Ki is actually just the Japanese pronunciation of that word.

Ki is basically what makes everything in the universe ''alive''. Ki is literally the energy that keeps you alive, hence the word life energy. Literally every living thing on earth has Ki/Life Energy, small insects and even grass. Humans have the intelligence to control and manipulate this energy through training.

When you see a character shooting beams at you, they are literally shooting their big load of life energy that's stored within their bodies at you. A Kamehameha more often than not is not 100% of Ki or nearly there either, because we see characters still continue fighting despite using the move. The amount of Ki used for the Kamehameha is not necessarily what makes it dangerous, it's the fact that it's condensed into a singular point that increases the destructive power of the move that makes it more potent than the total Ki supply that a user has at max. That's the advantage that Piccolo and Goku had against Raditz.

Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P6.2-3
Context: said as Goku charges up the Kamehameha.
Raditz: “Impossible!!! His battle power is rising!!! Battle power 924...!!!”
Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

When Roshi uses his maximum amount of Ki he can hold in his body, his Kamehameha becomes many times more powerful because the amount of Ki drawn from his current supply is multiplied. It's also reasonable to say that the current extent that he can distribute his Ki to the attack is perhaps at 50% (as an example), since we know it can be increased based on Goku's first Kamehameha being very meek in comparison as he lacked the proper training. It's his Kamehameha while in his MAX power state.

You know an actual example of a character using 100% of their Ki/Life energy into an attack? Majin Vegeta's final explosion. He's using every single shred of his Ki from his entire body to create a massive explosion to destroy Majin Boo. I'm sure you know what became of him in the aftermath. He literally became a shred of his utter self, a lifeless object. Just dust. It's what happens when a living being no longer has what makes him living, Ki.

I have never ever cared for what the guidebooks say, and I don't particularly understand why people like to use them. But whatever, I'll bite. The Daizenshuu literally agrees with the stance that I have.

Firstly for that Piccolo entry, he's emitting his Ki from his entire body to create an explosion. It's not saying he's literally using his entire reserves of energy into that attack. Secondly...

Final Last Attack:

Vegeta brought this out in order to defeat Majin Buu (good) in exchange for his own life. It's the ultimate self-destruction technique, which explodes all the energy in his body, enveloping the opponent. It creates a crater-shaped depression with a 1 kilometer diameter around the user, and had enough frightful destructive power to affect the Earth. (Daizenshuu 2, p.216)

''All'' of his energy. So clearly the Daizenshuu establishes that what Piccolo is doing is far different than what Vegeta is doing here due to their fates post-attack. This didn't work too well in your favor huh?

I already know that life energy is a thing in Dragon Ball, so the description you presented is unnecessary. Also, it's more accurate to attribute life energy to genki (元気), which Dragon Ball distinguishes from ki used for attacks. That's why with the Genki-Dama, Goku obtains energy from the surroundings, trees, people, animals, inanimate objects, etc. then changes it into attack energy.

When a character gets into a battle, then fights their hardest and uses up all of their energy, they are often exhausted afterwards but it's never implied that their life is in danger just because of that alone. The real danger is that they are susceptible to being finished off by their opponent if they are in a losing position. For instance, Goku was quite tired after he reached his limit against Kid Buu, but he could still move around and communicate; the real danger to his life is that Kid Buu was still present and could have killed him if he wasn't distracted by Good Buu at the time. Another example is Goku vs Perfect Cell; late into their fight, Goku decided to launch a Kamehameha at full power. Not long after that, he relentlessly threw a bunch of rapid ki blasts at Cell. Not once in any moment was it implied that Goku was on the verge of death or that his life was shortened as a result of his power use. The true danger to his life was Cell, who was more powerful than him and didn't use up as much energy as him. If Goku didn't forfeit, he would have been screwed because of that.

A character's life being in danger purely due to the use of their ki is only brought up in situations where it's made explicit that the character is using up their life force in the attack. The possibility of death is also expressed or hinted at prior to the event. For instance, Tien thought to himself that he was going to die before he used the Shin Kikoho on Semi-Perfect Cell, and Vegeta said his last goodbyes to Trunks and the others before he blew himself up against Fat Buu.

Goku's first ever Kamehameha was quite small because he had not yet mastered it. In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, we see him match Roshi's Kamehameha; one which Roshi described as being "decades in the making". So it's rationale to say that Goku had mastered the Kamehameha at this point. Goku got stronger as the series progressed, so by default, his Kamehameha got stronger too. But he didn't specifically power it up beyond his regular limit until his training with Kami.

As we both know, the point of the Kamehameha is to concentrate the user's energy into a single point and then release it all at once. Therefore, for there to be upgraded versions like the MAX Power Kamehameha and Super Kamehameha, that means these variations allow for amplification that is beyond the concentration of one's standard ki supply. This should be quite easy to understand.

If Piccolo's attack is quite clearly called a "Full Power Shockwave", then how is it not his full power? You can't twist this to suit your narrative, no matter how hard you try. What differentiates Piccolo's move from Vegeta's is that Piccolo was using his attack power, while Vegeta used his life force in conjunction with his attack power.

Since you're so used to parroting your opinions and letting your imagination be at the forefront of your arguments, it doesn't surprise me that you don't care about the guidebooks.

''Your'' in general terms. It's just basic english, he's not literally referring to Videl specifically.

Videl was the only person he was addressing, so there's no need to assume he was speaking generally. Also, while latent refers to something that is hidden or concealed, part of the definition is that it "isn't yet developed", which further emphasises that latent power is ki that can't be used without a special variable.

Basically pointless fluff.

Oh look, another baseless response from you. Didn't see that coming...

Kikoho takes some energy from his TOTAL Ki reserves from his entire potential (hence why it reduces his lifespan).

This doesn't even support your point. How is it unusable, like you said previously?

Kikoho reduces Tien's life span because it eats away at his life energy.

 

[Future Warrior]

I never attached a percentage to Roshi's form, and there's no need to. I gave you the dictionary definition for maximum, which again, means the greatest amount possible. Since Roshi used literally all of his power, this aligns perfectly with the definition of maximum.

''Roshi indeed used his maximum power, but his dormant energy was also in full use.''

Clearly based on this you think there's a difference between his maximum power and dormant power.

You didn't even address the main point, nor did you give any examples of dormant being used in a way that indicates suppression. So the one creating their own rules here is you. The manga takes precedence over what Future Warrior thinks.

I already gave evidence that Ki is innately a dormant energy with the Gohan example.

Latent power is latent power... there's no difference in 'terms' since it's literally the same term. The way the term is used is consistent in the story. Also, not long ago, you said that the manifestation of a user's latent power is their choice, but that is refuted by the Krillin example.

No it doesn't. Calling Freeza's 100% state his latent power isn't inaccurate because he's choosing to hide it. Based on your interpretation, you think I'm suggesting that Freeza could have reached his Golden Form at any point just by thinking about it, which is not the case. I don't know how much clearer I can get with this.

I already know that life energy is a thing in Dragon Ball, so the description you presented is unnecessary. Also, it's more accurate to attribute life energy to genki (元気), which Dragon Ball distinguishes from ki used for attacks. That's why with the Genki-Dama, Goku obtains energy from the surroundings, trees, people, animals, inanimate objects, etc. then changes it into attack energy.

Clearly you don't. I already gave evidence where Ki is regarded to literally be Life energy, no ifs or buts. Genki is an attribute of a persons Life energy. It's not Genki = Life Energy.

When a character gets into a battle, then fights their hardest and uses up all of their energy, they are often exhausted afterwards but it's never implied that their life is in danger just because of that alone. The real danger is that they are susceptible to being finished off by their opponent if they are in a losing position. For instance, Goku was quite tired after he reached his limit against Kid Buu, but he could still move around and communicate; the real danger to his life is that Kid Buu was still present and could have killed him if he wasn't distracted by Good Buu at the time. Another example is Goku vs Perfect Cell; late into their fight, Goku decided to launch a Kamehameha at full power. Not long after that, he relentlessly threw a bunch of rapid ki blasts at Cell. Not once in any moment was it implied that Goku was on the verge of death or that his life was shortened as a result of his power use. The true danger to his life was Cell, who was more powerful than him and didn't use up as much energy as him. If Goku didn't forfeit, he would have been screwed because of that.

His life isn't shortened because he's only using up the Life Energy/Ki that's currently within his disposal. This tells me you don't exactly understand the points I'm making here. However, he absolutely was tired after shooting that Kamehameha and shooting those Ki blasts. They usually don't die because their body gives out before their life becomes at risk. It takes certain techniques like Vegeta's sacrifice to completely use up 100% of Ki at once.

You're also forgetting that Gohan just by getting his arm severely injured by Cell reduced his Ki by a lot. That's because Ki is tied to both the mind and body. That's what makes it a persons Life energy.

A character's life being in danger purely due to the use of their ki is only brought up in situations where it's made explicit that the character is using up their life force in the attack. The possibility of death is also expressed or hinted at prior to the event. For instance, Tien thought to himself that he was going to die before he used the Shin Kikoho on Semi-Perfect Cell, and Vegeta said his last goodbyes to Trunks and the others before he blew himself up against Fat Buu

Vegeta using his an energy that is separate from Ki is entirely your headcanon. The Daizenshuu simply says all of his energy is used, the same energy used by Piccolo's explosive wave. The difference is that Piccolo still had Ki to spare.

If you believe the characters are constantly using all of their Ki into their attacks, then you are basically saying they have an infinite supply of energy.

Goku's first ever Kamehameha was quite small because he had not yet mastered it. In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, we see him match Roshi's Kamehameha; one which Roshi described as being "decades in the making". So it's rationale to say that Goku had mastered the Kamehameha at this point. Goku got stronger as the series progressed, so by default, his Kamehameha got stronger too. But he didn't specifically power it up beyond his regular limit until his training with Kami.
As we both know, the point of the Kamehameha is to concentrate the user's energy into a single point and then release it all at once. Therefore, for there to be upgraded versions like the MAX Power Kamehameha and Super Kamehameha, that means these variations allow for amplification that is beyond the concentration of one's standard ki supply. This should be quite easy to understand.

Yes, he hasn't mastered the Kamehameha yet. It's due to not being able to distribute the amount of Ki necessary for the attack. Basically the reason why Kuririn had a weak version of it during the 22nd tournament.

Also, your making a lot of assumptions about the MAX power Kamehameha. Nowhere is it said that it's an upgraded version like the Super Kamehameha.

If Piccolo's attack is quite clearly called a "Full Power Shockwave", then how is it not his full power? You can't twist this to suit your narrative, no matter how hard you try. What differentiates Piccolo's move from Vegeta's is that Piccolo was using his attack power, while Vegeta used his life force in conjunction with his attack power.

I've already explained the Ki and life force is one in the same by it's very definition. You're just choosing to be too stubborn to accept it.

Since you're so used to parroting your opinions and letting your imagination be at the forefront of your arguments, it doesn't surprise me that you don't care about the guidebooks.

Don't really see how those two go hand in hand... but sure.

Videl was the only person he was addressing, so there's no need to assume he was speaking generally. Also, while latent refers to something that is hidden or concealed, part of the definition is that it "isn't yet developed", which further emphasises that latent power is ki that can't be used without a special variable.

''Part'' of the definition. You're cherry picking.

This doesn't even support your point. How is it unusable, like you said previously?

Kikoho reduces Tien's life span because it eats away at his life energy.

The Kikoho makes it usable. Tenshinhan can't use that power without it. It's called a technique that surpasses your limits, like the Kaio-Ken.

 

[Spiral-Force]

''Roshi indeed used his maximum power, but his dormant energy was also in full use.''

Clearly based on this you think there's a difference between his maximum power and dormant power.

Not that there's a difference, but that his dormant energy was factored into his maximum power.

I already gave evidence that Ki is innately a dormant energy with the Gohan example.

The Gohan example was of Videl's ki, which hadn't been awakened yet. Considering the way in which the term dormant energy is used in virtually every other instance of the story, I see no reason to believe there is a separate meaning here.

No it doesn't. Calling Freeza's 100% state his latent power isn't inaccurate because he's choosing to hide it. Based on your interpretation, you think I'm suggesting that Freeza could have reached his Golden Form at any point just by thinking about it, which is not the case. I don't know how much clearer I can get with this.

It was never stated to be Frieza's latent power, though. The problem is that your viewpoint is based off of a misinterpretation of Gohan's statement, so you created a separate meaning for latent power that was never official in the manga or any other publication. I understand what you're suggesting, but it's not factual in any sense.

Clearly you don't. I already gave evidence where Ki is regarded to literally be Life energy, no ifs or buts. Genki is an attribute of a persons Life energy. It's not Genki = Life Energy.

If you would have done some more research, you could have avoided being so close-minded.

These are some excerpts from an article that explains genki in complete detail:

(source: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/genki-meaning/)

China was a huge influence on Japan (just look at kanji and their readings), and Japan's adoption of Chinese medical practices included two words: 元気 and 原気 (pronounced yuán qì in Chinese and げんき in Japanese). Both refer to the fundamental energy that makes up all things. These two words are the source of the modern 元気's "original energy" definition.

元 — origin, source, base
原 — original, primitive
気 — energy

When you put 元 and 気 together, their combination means "origin of energy" or "life force." In general, this can be thought of as your health, your energy, the energy of living things, or the universe.

So genki is not a subset of ki; it's the origin of it. And, as I proved earlier with the Daizenshuu, living energy isn't the same as the energy that's used for attacking.

His life isn't shortened because he's only using up the Life Energy/Ki that's currently within his disposal. This tells me you don't exactly understand the points I'm making here. However, he absolutely was tired after shooting that Kamehameha and shooting those Ki blasts. They usually don't die because their body gives out before their life becomes at risk. It takes certain techniques like Vegeta's sacrifice to completely use up 100% of Ki at once.

You're also forgetting that Gohan just by getting his arm severely injured by Cell reduced his Ki by a lot. That's because Ki is tied to both the mind and body. That's what makes it a persons Life energy.

The thing is, you tend to make bold claims that end up coming back to bite you. Here, you're saying that Goku only used up the life energy/ki that was "currently within his disposal"... so you think part of his life energy/ki was absent for whatever reason? Seriously though, you can't blame me for being sceptical when you say things like this.

The fact is, Goku used his full power. That's what's stated, and that's what's shown. He got tired, yeah (I never denied that), but the point is that characters can go all-out with their ki/attack power, continue fighting, and still keep their life energy intact and unused in the battle. Your Gohan example only proves that characters can become weaker by taking damage, which I never denied.

Vegeta using his an energy that is separate from Ki is entirely your headcanon. The Daizenshuu simply says all of his energy is used, the same energy used by Piccolo's explosive wave. The difference is that Piccolo still had Ki to spare.

If you believe the characters are constantly using all of their Ki into their attacks, then you are basically saying they have an infinite supply of energy.

It's not headcanon, it's a matter of connecting the dots and coming to a logical conclusion. Regardless of your opinion on ki reserves, Piccolo's Full Power Shockwave is his full power (obviously); that's official. Goku used his Kamehameha at full power against Perfect Cell; that's official. Characters can use their full power without sacrificing or shortening their lives, indicating a difference between life energy and attack power (which the Daizenshuu itself points towards, as evidenced by the Genki-Dama entry from before). They get exhausted from this, but that's about it. This is just how Dragon Ball works.

Also, I never said characters constantly use their full power. But there are definitely moments in which they do. If you believe that a character needs to kill themselves to use their full power, then I don't know what manga you're reading...

Yes, he hasn't mastered the Kamehameha yet. It's due to not being able to distribute the amount of Ki necessary for the attack. Basically the reason why Kuririn had a weak version of it during the 22nd tournament.

Also, your making a lot of assumptions about the MAX power Kamehameha. Nowhere is it said that it's an upgraded version like the Super Kamehameha.

Even weak Kamehamehas are still Kamehamehas nonetheless - they got the technique down, just not perfectly, initially. It's still quite impressive that Goku and Krillin both mastered it in a much shorter time than Roshi did.

I'm not assuming anything. The MAX Power Kamehameha is way stronger than the Kamehameha that Roshi does in base form, so it's an upgrade (i.e. an improvement).

I've already explained the Ki and life force is one in the same by it's very definition. You're just choosing to be too stubborn to accept it.

In the context of Dragon Ball, ki refers to energy while genki refers to life force. I'm not being stubborn, you're just turning a blind eye to the bigger picture of things.

Don't really see how those two go hand in hand... but sure.

That says it all really.

''Part'' of the definition. You're cherry picking.

Just making sure that you're aware of the overall meaning. I don't need to cherry-pick because the definition as a whole supports my point.

The Kikoho makes it usable. Tenshinhan can't use that power without it. It's called a technique that surpasses your limits, like the Kaio-Ken.

But Tien can use the Kikoho whenever he wants, so this power is not unusable.

 

[Future Warrior]

Not that there's a difference, but that his dormant energy was factored into his maximum power.

Ok, so there's no difference between maximum power and dormant power. Glad we agree on this.

The Gohan example was of Videl's ki, which hadn't been awakened yet. Considering the way in which the term dormant energy is used in virtually every other instance of the story, I see no reason to believe there is a separate meaning here.

Videl's Ki is not different from anybody else's Ki. Stop trying to save face.

It was never stated to be Frieza's latent power, though. The problem is that your viewpoint is based off of a misinterpretation of Gohan's statement, so you created a separate meaning for latent power that was never official in the manga or any other publication. I understand what you're suggesting, but it's not factual in any sense.

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P6.5, P7.1
Context: after Freeza reaches his third form
Kuririn: “H-he didn’t change all that much, right…!?”
Vegeta: “Id-idiot! Check out his latent power…! It’s a different thing than what it was before…! What’s more, he’s regained his composure and has become calm…”
Gohan: “Th-that can’t be…The damage he received from Piccolo has gone away…”

Are we done here, or are you gonna come up with another shoddy excuse for this?

If you would have done some more research, you could have avoided being so close-minded.

These are some excerpts from an article that explains genki in complete detail:

(source: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/genki-meaning/)

China was a huge influence on Japan (just look at kanji and their readings), and Japan's adoption of Chinese medical practices included two words: 元気 and 原気 (pronounced yuán qì in Chinese and げんき in Japanese). Both refer to the fundamental energy that makes up all things. These two words are the source of the modern 元気's "original energy" definition.

元 — origin, source, base
原 — original, primitive
気 — energy

When you put 元 and 気 together, their combination means "origin of energy" or "life force." In general, this can be thought of as your health, your energy, the energy of living things, or the universe.

So genki is not a subset of ki; it's the origin of it. And, as I proved earlier with the Daizenshuu, living energy isn't the same as the energy that's used for attacking.

Nice try. In that same source you pointed out it says that the word Genki has origins of the Chinese ''Ki'' spelling. 気 = Ki, which translated to Spirt/Energy/Mind. I already said that Genki is still technically Ki, it's just an aspect of Ki. Since Ki is life energy the correlates to both mind and body, the health of a person plays a role (Genki). Just like the persons mental condition affects Ki.

Also, from Herms, a reliable Japanese translator. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14734

''Overall I think it makes the most sense to think of the Genki-Dama as drawing on only the genki component of a person’s ki. However, while genki is only one of many things included in ki, it seems to be a fairly vital component. In the Boo arc, donating one’s genki to the Genki-Dama is said to tire you out in the same way that running as fast as you can does, and Kaioshin becomes unable to teleport after contributing his genki. And in the anime, if you want to count that, it’s said that taking too much genki from the Earthlings could kill them. So it doesn’t seem that people can just give their genki away and be fine because they’ve still got all the other components of their ki intact. Maybe this is because genki makes up the majority of most people’s ki, so taking it away leaves little left. Or maybe genki is just extra vital due to its connection with health. Like in an RPG, a character can fight with reduced attack or defense, but reduce their HP to zero and they can’t fight at all.''

Btw, it's a common misconception that Toriyama was giving some mathematical formula on what forms Ki. It's not a 1/3 nature. He just gave examples on how the state of mind and body affects your Ki/Life energy. Genki by itself is not particularly that powerful.

The thing is, you tend to make bold claims that end up coming back to bite you. Here, you're saying that Goku only used up the life energy/ki that was "currently within his disposal"... so you think part of his life energy/ki was absent for whatever reason? Seriously though, you can't blame me for being sceptical when you say things like this.

The fact is, Goku used his full power. That's what's stated, and that's what's shown. He got tired, yeah (I never denied that), but the point is that characters can go all-out with their ki/attack power, continue fighting, and still keep their life energy intact and unused in the battle. Your Gohan example only proves that characters can become weaker by taking damage, which I never denied.

Life energy = Ki. Your thinking that a character has to use all his energy in order to be considered a ''full power'' attack. Goku's Kamehameha against Cell is his full power, that doesn't mean he's able to use all his latent energy into the move.

Also, I never said characters constantly use their full power. But there are definitely moments in which they do. If you believe that a character needs to kill themselves to use their full power, then I don't know what manga you're reading...

Their total Ki into an attack is not considered to be normally a ''full power'' attack, as I've already established above. So no, I don't think a characters needs to commit suicide for that to happen.

Even weak Kamehamehas are still Kamehamehas nonetheless - they got the technique down, just not perfectly, initially. It's still quite impressive that Goku and Krillin both mastered it in a much shorter time than Roshi did.

I'm not assuming anything. The MAX Power Kamehameha is way stronger than the Kamehameha that Roshi does in base form, so it's an upgrade (i.e. an improvement).

I wouldn't really classify Goku's Kamehameha as SSJ to be an upgraded version of his Kamehameha at base form. It's just much more powerful, the amplification is relatively the same.

In the context of Dragon Ball, ki refers to energy while genki refers to life force. I'm not being stubborn, you're just turning a blind eye to the bigger picture of things.

There is no bigger picture...

That says it all really.

It's pretty evident at this point that you don't like to be wrong under any circumstance.

Just making sure that you're aware of the overall meaning. I don't need to cherry-pick because the definition as a whole supports my point.

So does mine.

But Tien can use the Kikoho whenever he wants, so this power is not unusable.

Yes, because that's what the technique is for. Goku can also use the Kaio-Ken whenever he wants, but it multiplies his ''max power''. Therefore, it's using unusable power in normal situations. You're trying to bring in semantics because you have no counter argument.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Ok, so there's no difference between maximum power and dormant power. Glad we agree on this.

You're oversimplifying it. Roshi's maximum power includes all of his dormant power, so it goes beyond his standard full power.

Videl's Ki is not different from anybody else's Ki. Stop trying to save face.

So everyone's ki is undeveloped then? Your argument is laughable.

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P6.5, P7.1
Context: after Freeza reaches his third form
Kuririn: “H-he didn’t change all that much, right…!?”
Vegeta: “Id-idiot! Check out his latent power…! It’s a different thing than what it was before…! What’s more, he’s regained his composure and has become calm…”
Gohan: “Th-that can’t be…The damage he received from Piccolo has gone away…”

Are we done here, or are you gonna come up with another shoddy excuse for this?

What have you proven, that you're a cherry-picker? We were talking about 100% Frieza, now you're going by his 3rd form?

Occasionally there are statements like this that are anomalies and nothing more. For example, the narrator states that Cell has a battle power of infinity in the anime:

Frieza specifically developed his suppressed forms to partition his base power. You're forgetting that latent indicates something that is undeveloped, so if you take Vegeta's statement literally, then you'd have to believe that ki itself is undeveloped - which is absurd since Frieza himself and plenty of other characters are capable of manipulating their ki. You also think that ki = life energy, so you'd have to believe that ki is constantly active, which further deviates it from the term latent.

The VIZ version just refers to it as power, which makes more sense.

Nice try. In that same source you pointed out it says that the word Genki has origins of the Chinese ''Ki'' spelling. 気 = Ki, which translated to Spirt/Energy/Mind. I already said that Genki is still technically Ki, it's just an aspect of Ki. Since Ki is life energy the correlates to both mind and body, the health of a person plays a role (Genki). Just like the persons mental condition affects Ki.

Also, from Herms, a reliable Japanese translator. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14734

''Overall I think it makes the most sense to think of the Genki-Dama as drawing on only the genki component of a person’s ki. However, while genki is only one of many things included in ki, it seems to be a fairly vital component. In the Boo arc, donating one’s genki to the Genki-Dama is said to tire you out in the same way that running as fast as you can does, and Kaioshin becomes unable to teleport after contributing his genki. And in the anime, if you want to count that, it’s said that taking too much genki from the Earthlings could kill them. So it doesn’t seem that people can just give their genki away and be fine because they’ve still got all the other components of their ki intact. Maybe this is because genki makes up the majority of most people’s ki, so taking it away leaves little left. Or maybe genki is just extra vital due to its connection with health. Like in an RPG, a character can fight with reduced attack or defense, but reduce their HP to zero and they can’t fight at all.''

Btw, it's a common misconception that Toriyama was giving some mathematical formula on what forms Ki. It's not a 1/3 nature. He just gave examples on how the state of mind and body affects your Ki/Life energy. Genki by itself is not particularly that powerful.

You entirely missed the point of those quotes. You're thinking about the general meaning of genki, which no one is disputing. What's important here is the abstract meaning of genki, which you still don't get. Since it somehow flew over your head, those quotes conclude that gen (元) and ki (気) combined = life force. In other words, genki (元気) is a being's living energy. This is not just an opinion either; it's evident in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, Krillin refers to the energy of the Genki-Dama as living energy:

That Herms quote is his opinion (hence why he said "I think"). He also doesn't seem entirely sure about genki hence why he said 'maybe' multiple times and considered different possibilities. I'm not concerned with fan theories/ideas. What I care about is objective evidence.

You still haven't shown direct evidence from the manga of "ki = life energy".

Meanwhile:
- I've shown you a statement from the manga of genki being referred to as living energy.
- And previously, I showed you a Daizenshuu statement that indicates that the Genki-Dama changes genki into ki that is used for attacks.

If you think the tides have turned in your favour, then you're tremendously wrong.

Life energy = Ki. Your thinking that a character has to use all his energy in order to be considered a ''full power'' attack. Goku's Kamehameha against Cell is his full power, that doesn't mean he's able to use all his latent energy into the move.

Full power is full power. I don't care for subjective opinions. If you believe ki = life energy, then you need to explain why there was no threat to Goku's life despite him using his full ki. If you can't do that objectively, then what more is there to say here?

Their total Ki into an attack is not considered to be normally a ''full power'' attack, as I've already established above. So no, I don't think a characters needs to commit suicide for that to happen.

Point me to the manga panel that explains this "total ki" idea that you've been spouting. Because the way you're going with this, you think full power attacks are not full power. If your claim can't be backed up at all, then it's fruitless to discuss this further.

I wouldn't really classify Goku's Kamehameha as SSJ to be an upgraded version of his Kamehameha at base form. It's just much more powerful, the amplification is relatively the same.

Who said anything about SSJ Goku's Kamehameha being an upgrade? I didn't make that claim.

There is no bigger picture...

So you continue to stay blind, as expected.

It's pretty evident at this point that you don't like to be wrong under any circumstance.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Who likes being wrong? (perhaps you?)

Good thing I'm right.

So does mine.

If you still think that there's no hole in your logic, then that's legitimately concerning. Maybe your true passion in life is fanfiction, since you're so accustomed to it.

Yes, because that's what the technique is for. Goku can also use the Kaio-Ken whenever he wants, but it multiplies his ''max power''. Therefore, it's using unusable power in normal situations. You're trying to bring in semantics because you have no counter argument.

This is useless hogwash. I never claimed that Tien can use the power of the Kikoho without the Kikoho itself. This doesn't prove that the Kikoho is unusable in normal situations. It's not about semantics, what you're saying just doesn't make sense.

 

[Future Warrior]

You're oversimplifying it. Roshi's maximum power includes all of his dormant power, so it goes beyond his standard full power.

Here's the thing though, this is kind of a pointless statement you made here since I didn't really ask for your headcanon.

So everyone's ki is undeveloped then? Your argument is laughable.

Ki is Ki, underdeveloped or not. I didn't think a basic concept like this would be not comprehensible to you. I'm not sure how to simplify this further

Occasionally there are statements like this that are anomalies and nothing more. For example, the narrator states that Cell has a battle power of infinity in the anime:

Frieza specifically developed his suppressed forms to partition his base power. You're forgetting that latent indicates something that is undeveloped, so if you take Vegeta's statement literally, then you'd have to believe that ki itself is undeveloped - which is absurd since Frieza himself and plenty of other characters are capable of manipulating their ki. You also think that ki = life energy, so you'd have to believe that ki is constantly active, which further deviates it from the term latent.

The VIZ version just refers to it as power, which makes more sense.

Shoddy excuse it is, as I expected from you. You ask me to bring an example (which I gave), and you proceed to make a bunch of flimsy excuses because you know that you have lost your leverage. The fact that you bring in a Viz statement over a direct translation and a hyperbolic anime statement ensures that I'm the one dominating here. You lost, and I won this debate.

You entirely missed the point of those quotes. You're thinking about the general meaning of genki, which no one is disputing. What's important here is the abstract meaning of genki, which you still don't get. Since it somehow flew over your head, those quotes conclude that gen (元) and ki (気) combined = life force. In other words, genki (元気) is a being's living energy. This is not just an opinion either; it's evident in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, Krillin refers to the energy of the Genki-Dama as living energy:

Image

That Herms quote is his opinion (hence why he said "I think"). He also doesn't seem entirely sure about genki hence why he said 'maybe' multiple times and considered different possibilities. I'm not concerned with fan theories/ideas. What I care about is objective evidence.

You still haven't shown direct evidence from the manga of "ki = life energy".

Meanwhile:
- I've shown you a statement from the manga of genki being referred to as living energy.
- And previously, I showed you a Daizenshuu statement that indicates that the Genki-Dama changes genki into ki that is used for attacks.

Ki is also living energy, I'm not disputing anything.

氣 is romanized as "Qi" or "Chi" in Chinese, "Gi" in Korean, and "Ki" in Japanese. Chi is believed to be part of everything that exists, as in "life force" or "spiritual energy". It is most often translated as "energy flow", or literally as "air" or "breath".

You're contradicting yourself. I thought life force is supposed to reduce your lifespan, kind of strange for that to not be an issue when people contribute to the Genki Dama. Be consistent for once.

Why should I trust you over a respected person of the DB forums that is fluent in Japanese? Because you say so? That's not how it works, sorry. Then again, considering your history you don't seem like a very trustworthy person regardless.

If you think the tides have turned in your favour, then you're tremendously wrong.

I think you need to seriously reevaluate your priorities in life to care this much. Get over it. You're getting outplayed, big deal. You honestly sound like an overgrown child.

Full power is full power. I don't care for subjective opinions. If you believe ki = life energy, then you need to explain why there was no threat to Goku's life despite him using his full ki. If you can't do that objectively, then what more is there to say here?

You don't get what entails full power is your issue. When Goku shoots a Kamehameha, he still has an aura around his body plenty of times during the attack. He's not putting all his Ki into an attack

Point me to the manga panel that explains this "total ki" idea that you've been spouting. Because the way you're going with this, you think full power attacks are not full power. If your claim can't be backed up at all, then it's fruitless to discuss this further.

Because I understand how Ki works and you don't, with the added bonus of having common sense. Besides artificial beings, nobody has an infinite supply of energy.

By all means you are free to leave this debate whenever you wish, but I have a feeling you'll see this to the ends of the earth as long as you get the last word in. I've been in these forums long enough to know.

Who said anything about SSJ Goku's Kamehameha being an upgrade? I didn't make that claim.

It seems like English isn't your first language since you didn't understand the last sentence I made. You believe Roshi's attack is an upgraded version because it's more powerful, but that is never indicated. It's stronger, but it's not amplified further than if he were to do the attack in his skinny state.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Who likes being wrong? (perhaps you?)

Good thing I'm right.

I'm indifferent to being wrong, and in some case even prefer it. But thank you for broadcasting to everyone your true nature, greatly appreciated.

If you still think that there's no hole in your logic, then that's legitimately concerning. Maybe your true passion in life is fanfiction, since you're so accustomed to it.

Never actually tried writing fanfiction, but maybe I'll try it out at some point.

This is useless hogwash. I never claimed that Tien can use the power of the Kikoho without the Kikoho itself. This doesn't prove that the Kikoho is unusable in normal situations. It's not about semantics, what you're saying just doesn't make sense.

It's the fact that it reduces his lifespan, something most attacks don't do.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Here's the thing though, this is kind of a pointless statement you made here since I didn't really ask for your headcanon.

It's not headcanon when Yamcha's statement on Roshi's KHH pretty much confirms what I'm saying. And like I said before, we saw Roshi do a Kamehameha that was "decades in the making" in his base form with no problem in the 21st TB. You seem to think that Roshi needs to bulk up just to use the full extent of his base power, but there's no evidence for that. Roshi going buff pushes him beyond his base limit (hence why his dormant power is put into use when this happens).

Ki is Ki, underdeveloped or not. I didn't think a basic concept like this would be not comprehensible to you. I'm not sure how to simplify this further

So in other words, you have no real counter argument and you don't want to admit it. Your logic is inapplicable because there are a bunch of characters that have increased their ki, can manipulate their ki, and can use special ki techniques. All of that wouldn't be possible if ki remains undeveloped.

Shoddy excuse it is, as I expected from you. You ask me to bring an example (which I gave), and you proceed to make a bunch of flimsy excuses because you know that you have lost your leverage. The fact that you bring in a Viz statement over a direct translation and a hyperbolic anime statement ensures that I'm the one dominating here. You lost, and I won this debate.

So again, in other words, you have no real counter argument. You claim I'm making excuses, yet you failed to address any of the points I made. You also missed the point of the quotes that I displayed. If anything, you're avoiding the actual debate. You can't win an argument by running away from it. In any case, you'll never win against me with such unstable arguments.

Ki is also living energy, I'm not disputing anything.

In the story, genki was specifically referred to as living energy. If you claim ki (as a whole) = life energy, then you need to show evidence of that from the story. If you can't, then you have no reason to keep going on and on with your subjective argument.

氣 is romanized as "Qi" or "Chi" in Chinese, "Gi" in Korean, and "Ki" in Japanese. Chi is believed to be part of everything that exists, as in "life force" or "spiritual energy". It is most often translated as "energy flow", or literally as "air" or "breath".

That doesn't counter my point. I already know what ki is often believed to be. Doesn't mean the term is always used in that precise way. And as we saw from the article I posted before, it's more accurate to attribute life force to genki, and I provided evidence of Dragon Ball using it in this way (which is the most important thing here).

You're contradicting yourself. I thought life force is supposed to reduce your lifespan, kind of strange for that to not be an issue when people contribute to the Genki Dama. Be consistent for once.

Only a small portion of one's living energy is contributed to the Genki-Dama, so contributors just feel tired afterwards. Where's the contradiction?

Why should I trust you over a respected person of the DB forums that is fluent in Japanese? Because you say so? That's not how it works, sorry. Then again, considering your history you don't seem like a very trustworthy person regardless.

You don't need to trust me when the manga itself is what my argument is centred on. If anything, you should pay closer attention to the source material than what any fan thinks.

I don't care for your approval, nor your distorted opinion on me as a person. Looks like I struck a nerve since you decided to do a personal attack instead of addressing my argument.

I think you need to seriously reevaluate your priorities in life to care this much. Get over it. You're getting outplayed, big deal. You honestly sound like an overgrown child.

What do priorities have to do with anything? It's like you say whatever first comes to your mind without thinking. You can trash talk me all you want, but deep down, you know that your argument is inadequate and doesn't stack up to mine.

You don't get what entails full power is your issue. When Goku shoots a Kamehameha, he still has an aura around his body plenty of times during the attack. He's not putting all his Ki into an attack

If the narrative says an attack is at full power, then it's at full power. Going by your logic, the manga is wrong practically every time a character is said to be using their full power. You seem to have a problem with accepting how Dragon Ball works.

Because I understand how Ki works and you don't, with the added bonus of having common sense. Besides artificial beings, nobody has an infinite supply of energy.

So you admit that you have no manga statement to back up your claim? Gotcha. Your understanding of ki is quite comical considering you think all ki is undeveloped. Also, infinite energy was never my argument. I made it clear that I acknowledge that using full power can make someone rather tired.

By all means you are free to leave this debate whenever you wish, but I have a feeling you'll see this to the ends of the earth as long as you get the last word in. I've been in these forums long enough to know.

Considering that you responded, of course I will defend my argument and address your argument. That's the point of debating.

If you have a problem with that, you can simply stop responding and we can end it here. Otherwise, stop whining and let's continue.

Just to remind you, you're the one that came at me first. I find it interesting that you're willing to initiate a debate with me and keep going back and forth despite having a clear personal problem with me.

You come across as a confused, emotional individual.

It seems like English isn't your first language since you didn't understand the last sentence I made. You believe Roshi's attack is an upgraded version because it's more powerful, but that is never indicated. It's stronger, but it's not amplified further than if he were to do the attack in his skinny state.

SSJ Goku's situation isn't comparable to Roshi's here, so it was completely irrelevant for you to bring up Goku. Super Saiyan is a fixed multiplier (50x according to the SEG) and Goku can fight freely in the form. How strong his Kamehameha becomes was never the focal point of the transformation.

Roshi's buff state was solely used to push his ki beyond his limit to increase the power of his Kamehameha. The Kamehameha itself is the main focus. The amplification would have to be higher since the MAX Power Kamehameha uses all of his dormant power. There's no evidence that he's capable of releasing that type of power in his base Kamehameha.

It's ironic that you criticise my English when you're the one that's been making their own definitions of words and ignoring the actual meanings, like how you believe full power isn't full power and you're inability to realise what undeveloped means. You should honestly stop attempting to make insults, because you're ultimately just embarrassing yourself.

I'm indifferent to being wrong, and in some case even prefer it. But thank you for broadcasting to everyone your true nature, greatly appreciated.

Just because you're indifferent to being wrong and may even prefer it, that doesn't make you better than anyone else.

I aim to be as accurate as possible with what I say or argue. I'm confident in my arguments and don't need to turn debates into personal attacks and squabbles like you've been doing. Perhaps you should take a closer look at your "true nature".

Never actually tried writing fanfiction, but maybe I'll try it out at some point.

You should. By doing so, you can let all your whacky ideas run wild within your works instead of within debates.

It's the fact that it reduces his lifespan, something most attacks don't do.

That makes it risky/dangerous, not unusable.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's not headcanon when Yamcha's statement on Roshi's KHH pretty much confirms what I'm saying. And like I said before, we saw Roshi do a Kamehameha that was "decades in the making" in his base form with no problem in the 21st TB. You seem to think that Roshi needs to bulk up just to use the full extent of his base power, but there's no evidence for that. Roshi going buff pushes him beyond his base limit (hence why his dormant power is put into use when this happens).

I think I've provided the right amount of evidence to support my belief that your interpretation of the dialogue is wrong. That's your problem, not mine.

So in other words, you have no real counter argument and you don't want to admit it. Your logic is inapplicable because there are a bunch of characters that have increased their ki, can manipulate their ki, and can use special ki techniques. All of that wouldn't be possible if ki remains undeveloped.

No, it's a fact. It doesn't matter how well they can utilize their Ki, it's the same thing at the end of the day.

So again, in other words, you have no real counter argument. You claim I'm making excuses, yet you failed to address any of the points I made. You also missed the point of the quotes that I displayed. If anything, you're avoiding the actual debate. You can't win an argument by running away from it. In any case, you'll never win against me with such unstable arguments.

I can't honestly believe you can say all this while at the same time dismiss a pure manga quote. Just accept that you lost this point and move on to something else. It's hard to take you seriously at this point.

Clearly you didn't think I'd find a quote on latent power supporting my interpretation since the beginning of this debate, which ended up biting you. Then you had to save face by calling out the author instead. You can't blame me for doubting your honesty.

In the story, genki was specifically referred to as living energy. If you claim ki (as a whole) = life energy, then you need to show evidence of that from the story. If you can't, then you have no reason to keep going on and on with your subjective argument.

I already did.

That doesn't counter my point. I already know what ki is often believed to be. Doesn't mean the term is always used in that precise way. And as we saw from the article I posted before, it's more accurate to attribute life force to genki, and I provided evidence of Dragon Ball using it in this way (which is the most important thing here).

Genki is mostly used to refer to a person's well being in a casual conversation. They are not referring to a person's literal life energy.

Ki in DBZ is stemmed from real world beliefs. The definition I posted is most certainly relevant.

Only a small portion of one's living energy is contributed to the Genki-Dama, so contributors just feel tired afterwards. Where's the contradiction?

How do you know how much ''Genki'' Tenshinhan uses for his Kikoho?

You don't need to trust me when the manga itself is what my argument is centred on. If anything, you should pay closer attention to the source material than what any fan thinks.

I don't care for your approval, nor your distorted opinion on me as a person. Looks like I struck a nerve since you decided to do a personal attack instead of addressing my argument.

No it's not, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to avoid countering this quote by saying ''no Toriyama is wrong and I'm right'' (which by the way, isn't a suitable response). Guess I'll just have to keep posting it until you give me a different answer.

Vegeta: “Id-idiot! Check out his latent power…! It’s a different thing than what it was before…! What’s more, he’s regained his composure and has become calm…”

What personal attack, calling you dishonest? I don't care about how you conduct yourself in your personal life, I'm judging the user called Spiral-Force at DBZeta. I'm perfectly within reason to use such terms if I feel it affects the flow of our debate. Considering how you labeled it as a ''personal attack'', maybe my assertion of you isn't actually that far off.

What do priorities have to do with anything? It's like you say whatever first comes to your mind without thinking. You can trash talk me all you want, but deep down, you know that your argument is inadequate and doesn't stack up to mine.

Because it's as if losing this debate puts your pride on the line, to the point where you aren't even able to let go of a single point. We are talking about a childrens comic book for crying out loud. If this was a political discussion then maybe I'd understand.

If the narrative says an attack is at full power, then it's at full power. Going by your logic, the manga is wrong practically every time a character is said to be using their full power. You seem to have a problem with accepting how Dragon Ball works.

I never said anything about a character not using their full power. You're purposely twisting my words just to drag this on further.

So you admit that you have no manga statement to back up your claim? Gotcha. Your understanding of ki is quite comical considering you think all ki is undeveloped. Also, infinite energy was never my argument. I made it clear that I acknowledge that using full power can make someone rather tired.

Yep, twisting my words I see.

If they don't have infinite energy, then they are not using their putting all their Ki into an attack. If Goku is using all of his Ki into his Kamehameha, how can he still fight afterwards? Where is the energy coming from?

Considering that you responded, of course I will defend my argument and address your argument. That's the point of debating.

If you have a problem with that, you can simply stop responding and we can end it here. Otherwise, stop whining and let's continue.

Just to remind you, you're the one that came at me first. I find it interesting that you're willing to initiate a debate with me and keep going back and forth despite having a clear personal problem with me.

You come across as a confused, emotional individual.

So what if I responded? You're decision to ''defend'' your argument is diminishing your dignity at this point. To tell you to the truth, I don't even care for the topic of this thread at this point. I'm only contributing to see how far you're willing to go for this.

No, I don't have a personal problem with you (I've rarely ever talked to you on this forum). I just don't like the way you debate. You have an extremely high sensitivity if you regard someone calling you dishonest as ''coming at you''.

It's ironic that you criticise my English when you're the one that's been making their own definitions of words and ignoring the actual meanings, like how you believe full power isn't full power and you're inability to realise what undeveloped means. You should honestly stop attempting to make insults, because you're ultimately just embarrassing yourself.

Questioning if english is your first language is not an insult. It was completely genuine.

Just because you're indifferent to being wrong and may even prefer it, that doesn't make you better than anyone else.

I aim to be as accurate as possible with what I say or argue. I'm confident in my arguments and don't need to turn debates into personal attacks and squabbles like you've been doing. Perhaps you should take a closer look at your "true nature".

I don't think I'm better than you, I just think my personality provides a more stable discussion between individuals. If you're constantly worried about being wrong on anything then that isn't possible unfortunately. The main issue is that you are willing to take any measure possible to ensure your validity, no matter what you have to say to do it. Just so you know, we are not in a courtroom here.

You only believe I'm making personal attacks because either 1. I'm right, or 2. You prefer people to kiss your ass constantly instead. If I feel your being dishonest, then I'll say it.

You should. By doing so, you can let all your whacky ideas run wild within your works instead of within debates.

I'll assure you my wacky ideas for my fanfic will be entirely NSFW oriented. You really think I was gonna bring that into this discussion?

That makes it risky/dangerous, not unusable.

You are talking about irrelevant things at this point.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I think I've provided the right amount of evidence to support my belief that your interpretation of the dialogue is wrong. That's your problem, not mine.

I just take the statement for exactly what it is. It doesn't require an opinion. Meanwhile, you hop from one subjective idea to another, creating your own rules as you go along, deluding yourself into thinking you stood any sort of chance against me.

No, it's a fact. It doesn't matter how well they can utilize their Ki, it's the same thing at the end of the day.

This is sad. Your argument is basically "I'm right, you're wrong" with no attempt at an explanation and no evidence to support it.

I can't honestly believe you can say all this while at the same time dismiss a pure manga quote. Just accept that you lost this point and move on to something else. It's hard to take you seriously at this point.

Clearly you didn't think I'd find a quote on latent power supporting my interpretation since the beginning of this debate, which ended up biting you. Then you had to save face by calling out the author instead. You can't blame me for doubting your honesty.

I didn't just dismiss the quote for the sake of it. I gave a detailed explanation as to why the quote doesn't make sense when taking it literally, and it looks like you have no answer to that.

The quote you found was an anomaly, and contrary to what you said, it appears that it came back to bite you since it further emphasises the problem with your argument.

So, because I acknowledge that there are some statements that shouldn't be taken literally, that's "calling out the author"? You're reaching.

I already did.

Are you sure you weren't hallucinating? Because you haven't given the evidence I requested.

Genki is mostly used to refer to a person's well being in a casual conversation. They are not referring to a person's literal life energy.

Ki in DBZ is stemmed from real world beliefs. The definition I posted is most certainly relevant.

You're just going in circles. I already told you that the general meaning of genki is irrelevant in this conversation. And Krillin straight up refers to the energy of the Genki-Dama as living energy, so it is used in a literal sense.

How do you know how much ''Genki'' Tenshinhan uses for his Kikoho?

Since we see characters say it reduces his life span and that it can potentially kill him, it's got to be quite a significant amount.

No it's not, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to avoid countering this quote by saying ''no Toriyama is wrong and I'm right'' (which by the way, isn't a suitable response). Guess I'll just have to keep posting it until you give me a different answer.

Vegeta: “Id-idiot! Check out his latent power…! It’s a different thing than what it was before…! What’s more, he’s regained his composure and has become calm…”

What personal attack, calling you dishonest? I don't care about how you conduct yourself in your personal life, I'm judging the user called Spiral-Force at DBZeta. I'm perfectly within reason to use such terms if I feel it affects the flow of our debate. Considering how you labeled it as a ''personal attack'', maybe my assertion of you isn't actually that far off.

As expected, you want to continue your ignorance. You're acting like I just dismissed the quote and left it at that. I gave a logical explanation as to why that quote is invalid when taking it literally, which you brushed under the carpet because you have no real response to that.

You're judging me (the user) in a negative manner instead of addressing my actual argument. So that was indeed a personal attack.

Because it's as if losing this debate puts your pride on the line, to the point where you aren't even able to let go of a single point. We are talking about a childrens comic book for crying out loud. If this was a political discussion then maybe I'd understand.

So what if it's a children's comic book? We're still having a debate about it.

Why should I let go of a point when you're incapable of forming a response that is equally as strong as mine? Might as well keep countering you, which is easy to do. It's not about pride, I just take debating seriously, and it's quite clear that you're the one in the losing position.

I never said anything about a character not using their full power. You're purposely twisting my words just to drag this on further.

In case you've forgotten, you said that characters still have ki in reserve after a full power attack because of "total ki". If that's the case, what is "full" when a character uses their full power?

Yep, twisting my words I see.

If they don't have infinite energy, then they are not using their putting all their Ki into an attack. If Goku is using all of his Ki into his Kamehameha, how can he still fight afterwards? Where is the energy coming from?

I didn't twist anything; you believe ki itself is latent power, therefore all ki is undeveloped by your logic. Face it, you made a nonsensical claim and you can't rationalise it.

Logically, when one's full power is used, having the ability to continue using ki for battle indicates that some energy is replenished.

Even in real life, there's such a thing as "second wind" where an athlete's energy returns after they get tired, allowing them to continue exerting themselves for some time.

So what if I responded? You're decision to ''defend'' your argument is diminishing your dignity at this point. To tell you to the truth, I don't even care for the topic of this thread at this point. I'm only contributing to see how far you're willing to go for this.

No, I don't have a personal problem with you (I've rarely ever talked to you on this forum). I just don't like the way you debate. You have an extremely high sensitivity if you regard someone calling you dishonest as ''coming at you''.

Seriously? The one making stuff up and relying on their headcanon is now talking about 'dignity'. You then say you don't care for the topic, which isn't true since you responded. But by all means, keep "contributing" if you want to continuously get dismantled.

If you think I'm dishonest, then clearly you have a problem with me in that regard. And you based this on my "history", so it appears to be a deepseated opinion you have on me. You still haven't explained what I've done that's "dishonest", so this just makes you look bad.

When I said you came at me, I meant in the sense that you started this argument.

Questioning if english is your first language is not an insult. It was completely genuine.

Not genuine at all since I understood what you said perfectly. It's just that what you said was irrelevant.

I don't think I'm better than you, I just think my personality provides a more stable discussion between individuals. If you're constantly worried about being wrong on anything then that isn't possible unfortunately. The main issue is that you are willing to take any measure possible to ensure your validity, no matter what you have to say to do it. Just so you know, we are not in a courtroom here.

You only believe I'm making personal attacks because either 1. I'm right, or 2. You prefer people to kiss your ass constantly instead. If I feel your being dishonest, then I'll say it.

Not liking something isn't equivalent to fearing the possibility of it. And personality doesn't make an argument stronger either. What you're doing is actually the opposite of stable; you're spending more time talking about us than actually debating at this point. You derailed the discussion.

You have no basis for me being "dishonest", and you decided to focus on that rather than addressing the argument, so it was a personal attack. Quite a slimy one too.

I'll assure you my wacky ideas for my fanfic will be entirely NSFW oriented. You really think I was gonna bring that into this discussion?

Whatever the whacky idea, just keep all of them out of debates. Maybe take some time to read the dictionary as well when you have the chance.

You are talking about irrelevant things at this point.

What? It was a direct counter to what you said.