Shall the fight Base Trunks vs Eighteen...

[withheldforprivacy]

...limit us about where to place Base Saiyans? I always have a feeling that, when writing that scene, AT
didn't have in mind to show that Base Kids are necessarily at Eighteen's level, he just wanted to produce some
gags out of it. It could've been a fight Krillin vs Eighteen and gone the same way.

 

[Lightsworn]

I don't think she used full power so it doesn't limit anything. Beerus's line is more objective

 

[p123]

Freeza > Base Saiyans is an impossibility. It's ridiculous and goes against the manga. And yes it does Withheld, the Base Saiyans should be somewhere in the vicinity of Androids power.

I have the Kids starting it off and then I have the elite Base Saiyans being around Semi Cell's level.

 

[Clearin]

I don't use that fight as evidence for anything. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Option #1 is that #18 held back. The problem with this is that it would be a huge coincidence that she held back the perfect amount right off the back considering she can't sense Ki. "Mighty Mask" could be anywhere on the power scale, so for her to use the perfect amount of power straight away to make him struggle, but not knock him out, is ridiculous. Also why would she not just raise her power a bit?

Option #2 is #18 used her full power. Against someone she thought was mostly a normal human. A strong one, sure, but all she'd seen him do was one shot Killa, hardly worthy of her full power. If Mighty Mask was just as strong as Roshi she'd have knocked his head clean off in one blow.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I see no valid reason to discredit the fight. Even if ignoring it, there's already several other feats supporting it, such as Base Trunks knocking Cell back with a kiai, leading to Cell commenting that Trunks had indeed improved (implying that Base Trunks post-roast > SSJ Trunks vs Freeza at the very least), as well as Base Goku fighting on equal terms with someone who Kaioshin was scared of, which is further backed up by the Daizenshuu, which in turn backs up Base Trunks ~ #18. The "holding back" argument never struck me as making any sense, since it would also mean that #18 had far more options at her disposal to end it quick, leading to more problems that can't even be chalked up as CiS.

 

[Lightsworn]

I see no valid reason to discredit the fight. Even if ignoring it, there's already several other feats supporting it, such as Base Trunks knocking Cell back with a kiai, leading to Cell commenting that Trunks had indeed improved (implying that Base Trunks post-roast > SSJ Trunks vs Freeza at the very least), as well as Base Goku fighting on equal terms with someone who Kaioshin was scared of, which is further backed up by the Daizenshuu, which in turn backs up Base Trunks ~ #18. The "holding back" argument never struck me as making any sense, since it would also mean that #18 had far more options at her disposal to end it quick, leading to more problems that can't even be chalked up as CiS.

Base Trunks sending Cell flying has to do with the nature of a Kiai Freeza at 70% of his power did the same thing to Super Saiyan Goku.

Kaioshin was directly stated to be far stronger than Piccolo is well above base saiyans. The Daizenshuu does not support the notion that Kaioshin is weaker than base saiyans. Especially since it objectively states that Kaioshin is far stronger than Piccolo.

18 using her full power actually makes even less sense. Krillin explicitly told her to not kill anyone at the Budokai. 18 knows that by using her full power she would kill any contestant. So her using full power doesn't work out unless you believe she doesn't care about killing her opponents, which would contradict what we're told in the manga.

 

[p123]

18 vs Mighty Mask was conducted at full power imo. I think Trunks is a bit stronger. We walk away from it seeing that 18 thinks Trunks is strong and Trunks is frustrated with the suit not with 18's level of power.

 

[Lightsworn]

18 vs Mighty Mask was conducted at full power imo. I think Trunks is a bit stronger. We walk away from it seeing that 18 thinks Trunks is strong and Trunks is frustrated with the suit not with 18's level of power.

This is the same thing as expressing that she is willing to kill a human. With is stated otherwise.

 

[Zippy]

Not sure, from what i could see it was pimping the kids. Starting from trunks saying she gave their dads trouble (as ssjs), to 18 comming to thr conclusion that shed have to end the whole thing before she looses

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't think anything can be taken from the fight, honestly. She just considers him to be a weirdo that's stronger than he looks.

#18 using full-power in that situation seems like a bit much.

 

[Zippy]

Always been clinging onto if it was full power or not but its > what she used for humans, can go as low as 50%

 

[p123]

Clearly the kids aren't some regular fucking humans. Stupidest shit I ever heard. And wtf does not killing mean that you have to fight to a level where you are barely winning. Second stupidest shit ever. Oh hey I don't want to kill him so I'll hold back enough to where he blocks every fucking punch and get nowhere.

No one fucking said don't one shot people, clearly how they one shotted their other opponents! Fucking assholes with backwards fucking logic fuck off

 

[Kyo]

I think #18 was at full power seeing as how she didn't just raise her power a little bit to knock the kids out. This raises the question as to why she would use her full power against the kids to begin with (yes, she knew that they were not regular humans, but like Clearin said that's hardly any reason to think that they're android level), but I think that's more of an issue of some weird line of thinking on her part or just poor writing, whereas her not raising her level to knock the kids out if she could goes directly against her motivations, if that makes sense. I mean, both sides are suspect, but that's where I end up trying to use my best judgement :sameold I don't usually think about that scene too much anymore.

 

[ahill1]

Yea, the argument that #18 was heavily holding back or was holding back the entire fight is silly. As Daizenshuu stated Trunks and Goten showed strength on par with #18. Goten base and Trunks base should be at #18's level.

I don't think Goku's base is at #16 level though.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The battle is stupid in general.

People act like #18 is so dumb that she can't gauge his power and fight accordingly. Some people assume that it has to be one extreme (Full-Power or around Farmer with shotgun level) or another because they just refuse to see the scene for what it is.

At no point was it ever said the kids were as strong as #18, so there's no reason to assume they're equal. If #18 thought that they were, why would she not point that out?

Also, if you're going to cite the Daizenshuu when it benefits you, quote it when it proves you wrong or don't bother using it at all.

 

[ahill1]

The battle is stupid in general.

People act like #18 is so dumb that she can't gauge his power and fight accordingly. Some people assume that it has to be one extreme (Full-Power or around Farmer with shotgun level) or another because they just refuse to see the scene for what it is.

At no point was it ever said the kids were as strong as #18, so there's no reason to assume they're equal. If #18 thought that they were, why would she not point that out?

Also, if you're going to cite the Daizenshuu when it benefits you, quote it when it proves you wrong or don't bother using it at all.

Daizenshuu pretty much stated that Mighty Mask fought on par with #18.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

People act like #18 is so dumb that she can't gauge his power and fight accordingly.

That's what you're claiming though. If she can gauge their power and fight accordingly, and they're nowhere near her level, she should be able to subdue them with no issue, right?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

What does the Battle Guide say about Piccolo and Kaioshin?

@FutureProtaganist

#18 knocked Mighty Mask right into the ring and gave him a chance to get up before casually raining a blast down on him. I wouldn't say she was going out of her way to end the match.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

#18 knocked Mighty Mask right into the ring and gave him a chance to get up before casually raining a blast down on him. I wouldn't say she was going out of her way to end the match.

How do you know she gave them a chance to get up? Panels are tricky that way. I see her getting down to business, immediately engaging them, swiftly knocking them to the ground, and then attempting to the end the fight with a blast.

If she's way above them, the fight should have ended in the second panel of their fight.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Base Trunks sending Cell flying has to do with the nature of a Kiai Freeza at 70% of his power did the same thing to Super Saiyan Goku.

True, but Freeza still boasts about the attack:

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P14.3
Context: after blasting Goku into the sea
Freeza: "Fu... fuhahahaha...!! You underestimated me!! Just so you know, that right now still wasn't my full power!! It was only about 70 percent..."

If it's just the nature of the kiai type abilities, surely Freeza has nothing to boast about?

I would think for your kiai to have a certain effect on your enemy, you'd have to at least be pretty close to them; take Tenshinhan's Kikoho. That's about as impressive a Kiai technique as exists, but the effect that had on second form Cell was far less impressive that what base Trunks did to Cell or what 70% Freeza did to Goku.