Shall the fight Base Trunks vs Eighteen...

[Evil Vegeta]

Actually, the crowd thought he wasn't going to get up, then he proceeds to get up and yell at Goten for not kicking her. Hercule is shown as well. No way to truly estimate the timing, but I don't really see the urgency from her. Even when he gets back in the air, she's sitting there trying to figure out what he is.

If they were equal to her, I don't see why she'd start smirking once they transform. She would've been fucked at that point.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

Actually, the crowd thought he wasn't going to get up, then he proceeds to get up and yell at Goten for not kicking her. Hercule is shown as well. No way to truly estimate the timing, but I don't really see the urgency from her. Even when he gets back in the air, she's sitting there trying to figure out what he is.

If they were equal to her, I don't see why she'd start smirking once they transform. She would've been fucked at that point.

It's clear that she can't predict Super Saiyan power, judging by her reaction to their ki attack. After all, I don't think she's ever really witnessed the boost in action. #17 just noted that he looked different when he first saw Super Saiyans. I guess she might have seen their fight before, but you have to wonder why exactly she's surprised by their power.

#18 doesn't get worried during fights, even against an equal opponent; she barely even batted an eyelash at Piccolo's power. This should apply even more when her opponent is restricted by a magic suit.

She smirked because she knew she could win by revealing their identities, which she did. Apart from that, yeah she was fucked.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

[No message]

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I think she's surprised because they were far more powerful than she thought. She watched them fight in the tournament earlier and saw them transform.

That is why she recognized them, but she wasn't able to measure their power then either (she can't sense ki, and they barely fought in that form). I don't think she has any real idea what Super Saiyan does.

Maybe not, but she eventually considered Piccolo to be tough and said he was equal to #17. The way she describes Mighty Mask just makes it seem like he's just a strong guy who happens to be different:

It took some time though. It doesn't look like either of them are fighting all that seriously; #18 is finding them easy to beat around because their handicap, and they're not able to utilize their full power either. Neither of them have auras.

If she's able to easily grasp their power, she should be able to win by ring out without them even knowing what's happening. She's not being pushed, like #17 was by Piccolo, but I don't think she has any power to spare either. Someone weaker than Freeza should be a trivial victory for her, no matter what. Of course, her attacks aren't having any effect on Trunks either.

I don't think she intended to end the fight until after she saw the power of the attack. That was what prompted her to end it quickly, as she states.

That was what forced her to end it quickly. She ended every other fight quickly, this one should be no different.

The other wildcard here is that Goten and Trunks seem to know how strong #18 is. Apparently, they're perfectly capable of estimating the right amount of power they should use to defeat her as well.

The other thing (and we're venturing into base saiyans vs Piccolo territory here) is that Gohan wants to win the tournament, (to get money for Chi-Chi) surely he wouldn't suggest a rule that would make it impossible for him to manage that? What about Vegeta? Is he content to potentially lose to Piccolo/#18 and miss his chance at fighting Kakarot? Hell, what about Goku?

 

[Lightsworn]

[No message]

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Seems pretty weird that she'd be around them for that long and not know that becoming a Super Saiyan does more than change your hair color.

Overall, if Mighty Mask=#18 strictly based on their fight, she'd know they're stronger than her simply from transforming. If she doesn't think Mighty Mask is actually on her level, then there's more room for her to be surprised at their power, I think.

Yes, a Freeza level being is nothing to #18...if she's using power like she did against Vegeta. Her holding-back is something shown in her battle with Vegeta. With that, we know that #18 doesn't need to fight with a static level. It can vary depending on the situation. In this instance, she's fighting a very weird human.

Trunks is on the defense the majority of the battle...and he looks to be putting serious effort into blocking her attacks. He doesn't land one hit. I also don't think #18 could fully grasp their power. Her quotes are way too ambiguous to give us a good understanding of what she's trying to say. He's considered unusually strong, but that tells us nothing other than he's strong beyond normal standards.

They have an idea. Trunks has heard she was stronger than their dads before, so they know she's not to be taken lightly.

Based on Vegeta's response to Goku after Trunks transforms to knock Goten outside the ring to win, I'd say Vegeta is the last person who'd uphold a rule if he's at risk of losing. If Piccolo or #18 are in the process of winning, I don't see Vegeta not transforming to win. He allowed himself to be possessed so he could get one last chance at fighting Goku. Do you really see him sticking with this "No Super Saiyan" rule if he's about to lose? I don't.

This is conjecture, but if Piccolo was able to win the tournament, don't you think it's more than likely he'd give that money to Gohan? Gohan can't beat Vegeta or Goku, so his chances of getting 1st place are pretty low no matter how you look at it. With Goku and probably Piccolo, Gohan and Chi-Chi are in the money regardless.

There's also the whole "well, Piccolo and #18 aren't worried about the Saiyans" side to consider, too.

 

[Six Trails]

The other thing (and we're venturing into base saiyans vs Piccolo territory here) is that Gohan wants to win the tournament, (to get money for Chi-Chi) surely he wouldn't suggest a rule that would make it impossible for him to manage that? What about Vegeta? Is he content to potentially lose to Piccolo/#18 and miss his chance at fighting Kakarot? Hell, what about Goku?

Gohan could still win prize money from being in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th place.

Vegeta knew Piccolo was entering? Where is that shown? (Not disagreeing he's above #18, but Piccolo is more debatable).

 

[p123]

There's absolutely no reason for 18 to suppress herself to a 1/3 or less of her power and not increase heri ability while struggling to land anything of consequence.

 

[ahill1]

Agreed with p123. Goten and Trunks were still in the costume and its contraints, so much that Trunks said they would be at disadvantage even as SSJ. I cannot imagine a Gohan SSJ tier struggling with #18, so clearly the costume was a pain in the ass.

 

[Animelover5487]

Obviously 18 realized that going all out wouldn't kill Mighty Mask, even fighting at a level above Freeza wouldn't do too much to faze Mighty Mask so she couldn't afford to pull her punches and go for that quick knock out.

 

[p123]

She was able to KO her other opponent quickly with no issues, Mighty Mask dispatched on his opponent in the same manner. If they can restrain themselves against actual humans and KO them, no reason they can't do that at a higher level.

 

[Lightsworn]

There's absolutely no reason for 18 to suppress herself to a 1/3 or less of her power and not increase heri ability while struggling to land anything of consequence.

This is your best response to all the evidence I posted?Really? If you're going to claim she attacked at full power, then that is the same thing as claiming she is fine with killing a contestant. If she didn't attack Super Saiyan Vegeta at full power when he was threatening to kill her, then you're going to have an extremely hard time proving she would attack a character who she thinks is only a strong human at full power.

 

[Clearin]

I don't use that fight as evidence for anything. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Option #1 is that #18 held back. The problem with this is that it would be a huge coincidence that she held back the perfect amount right off the back considering she can't sense Ki. "Mighty Mask" could be anywhere on the power scale, so for her to use the perfect amount of power straight away to make him struggle, but not knock him out, is ridiculous. Also why would she not just raise her power a bit?

Option #2 is #18 used her full power. Against someone she thought was mostly a normal human. A strong one, sure, but all she'd seen him do was one shot Killa, hardly worthy of her full power. If Mighty Mask was just as strong as Roshi she'd have knocked his head clean off in one blow.

Quoting myself to give the context for this post.

I think my personal way to try and see this fight without either of these being a problem is she went into the battle at a level that wouldn't kill a "normal" (anyone in the 21st Budokai, they'd be able to one shot Killa) human, but raised her power as the fight went on to match, and then surpass Mighty Mask. This MIGHT be indicated by them constantly blocking each other until #18 manages to get the upper hand. The problem is that one hit is too hard to judge anything by. Hell she could probably have got that lucky hit in even if she was weaker, especially thanks for the costume.

I refuse to believe she fought Mighty Mask at full power on the grounds he one shot a normal human. She'd tear his fucking head off. On the other hand I refuse to believe she'd hold back to the point of not being able to easily win. This is the best middle ground for me.

She is definitely having an easier time of the fight in general, Trunks is sweating and making facial expressions, while she has no sweat and a calm expression. But again, this might be due to the costume than her suppressed. I'd think if Trunks' punches were a danger there would at least be some indication of her showing that.

The worst part is when Trunks says even as a Super Saiyan they're at a disadvantage. By that logic base kids are nowhere NEAR #18's power. If their bases were above #18 already, then as Super Saiyans they'd be able to do to her what they did to Killa, knock her out in one punch.

This fight is stupid. Very few options are believable, the fight is too short to get a real conclusion, the costume adds too many uncertainties about why things are portrayed the way they are. And the line about Super Saiyan kids having trouble just because they're in a costume contradicts a lot of what we know about the kids powers (such as being able to keep SSj Gohan on his toes)

 

[ahill1]

There's absolutely no reason for 18 to suppress herself to a 1/3 or less of her power and not increase heri ability while struggling to land anything of consequence.

This is your best response to all the evidence I posted?Really? If you're going to claim she attacked at full power, then that is the same thing as claiming she is fine with killing a contestant. If she didn't attack Super Saiyan Vegeta at full power when he was threatening to kill her, then you're going to have an extremely hard time proving she would attack a character who she thinks is only a strong human at full power.

Keedounan already explained this to you in neoseeker. Did you ignore him?

 

[Lightsworn]

There's absolutely no reason for 18 to suppress herself to a 1/3 or less of her power and not increase heri ability while struggling to land anything of consequence.

This is your best response to all the evidence I posted?Really? If you're going to claim she attacked at full power, then that is the same thing as claiming she is fine with killing a contestant. If she didn't attack Super Saiyan Vegeta at full power when he was threatening to kill her, then you're going to have an extremely hard time proving she would attack a character who she thinks is only a strong human at full power.

Keedounan already explained this to you in neoseeker. Did you ignore him?

You mean the thread where he admitted Freeza > Base Saiyans and wanted to agree to disagree? And where he also ignored the evidence? Yeah I remember

 

[ahill1]

I don't use that fight as evidence for anything. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it.

Option #1 is that #18 held back. The problem with this is that it would be a huge coincidence that she held back the perfect amount right off the back considering she can't sense Ki. "Mighty Mask" could be anywhere on the power scale, so for her to use the perfect amount of power straight away to make him struggle, but not knock him out, is ridiculous. Also why would she not just raise her power a bit?

Option #2 is #18 used her full power. Against someone she thought was mostly a normal human. A strong one, sure, but all she'd seen him do was one shot Killa, hardly worthy of her full power. If Mighty Mask was just as strong as Roshi she'd have knocked his head clean off in one blow.

Quoting myself to give the context for this post.

I think my personal way to try and see this fight without either of these being a problem is she went into the battle at a level that wouldn't kill a "normal" (anyone in the 21st Budokai, they'd be able to one shot Killa) human, but raised her power as the fight went on to match, and then surpass Mighty Mask. This MIGHT be indicated by them constantly blocking each other until #18 manages to get the upper hand. The problem is that one hit is too hard to judge anything by. Hell she could probably have got that lucky hit in even if she was weaker, especially thanks for the costume.

I refuse to believe she fought Mighty Mask at full power on the grounds he one shot a normal human. She'd tear his fucking head off. On the other hand I refuse to believe she'd hold back to the point of not being able to easily win. This is the best middle ground for me.

She is definitely having an easier time of the fight in general, Trunks is sweating and making facial expressions, while she has no sweat and a calm expression. But again, this might be due to the costume than her suppressed. I'd think if Trunks' punches were a danger there would at least be some indication of her showing that.

The worst part is when Trunks says even as a Super Saiyan they're at a disadvantage. By that logic base kids are nowhere NEAR #18's power. If their bases were above #18 already, then as Super Saiyans they'd be able to do to her what they did to Killa, knock her out in one punch.

This fight is stupid. Very few options are believable, the fight is too short to get a real conclusion, the costume adds too many uncertainties about why things are portrayed the way they are. And the line about Super Saiyan kids having trouble just because they're in a costume contradicts a lot of what we know about the kids powers (such as being able to keep SSj Gohan on his toes)

I think this show us that the costume was an unbelievable nerf tool. Goten and Trunks are near to Gohan's level whom is at least Goku SSJ ( cell games ) level IMO. Semi Cell ( much weaker than the kids SSJ ) tanked a full power punch from #16 ( much stronger than #18 ) and one shotted him. Trunks and Goten as SSJ should be able to do the same with #18 by this logic, but the costume was restricting them both so much, so much that even in SSJ they would be at disadvantege... this is insane. For me this shows that the kids in base are even stronger than #17. DBS is just BS IMO.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

The costume is basically magic. Apparently they can't win against #18 even in Super Saiyan while they're wearing that, yet they can defeat #18 with a suppressed blast.

I agree that #18 isn't having a difficult time, but none of her attacks are effective either; she's landing the hits, but they're not doing anything.

Gohan could still win prize money from being in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th place.

Vegeta knew Piccolo was entering? Where is that shown? (Not disagreeing he's above #18, but Piccolo is more debatable).

Chi-Chi was counting on either Goku or Gohan winning first place.

As for Vegeta, he was there when Gohan said he was going to tell "Kuririn and [his] folks", as well as "everyone" (Viz), so he should have a pretty good idea that Piccolo is going to show up. He also meets Piccolo there, but doesn't seem to react to his presence at all.

Ideally, I'd like to make Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo, but I guess it's not exactly "base saiyans" as I would be using the theory that they can absorb Super Saiyan power into their base forms the more the they train. So it's really more like they're always partial Super Saiyans. I might even be able to make Super Saiyan Goku at full power against Yakon. Goten and Trunks aren't as experienced so they have a bigger gap between the forms.

I'm still on the fence about this, but I feel like power chain keeps things as consistent as possible, minus DB Super BS.

 

[ahill1]

#18 was only told to be suppressed against some Earthlings. Why should she be suppressed against a ridiculously powerful guy like base Trunks? There's not statement during the fight that proves she was suppressed. Why would she suppress herself to his exact level of power instead of a bit higher so she could one-shot him?

 

[Six Trails]

Chi-Chi was counting on either Goku or Gohan winning first place.

As for Vegeta, he was there when Gohan said he was going to tell "Kuririn and [his] folks", as well as "everyone" (Viz), so he should have a pretty good idea that Piccolo is going to show up. He also meets Piccolo there, but doesn't seem to react to his presence at all.

Concede on the first point, well kind of. I still don't find it unreasonable to think that Gohan would settle for 2nd place as he'd still get a lot of money (alongside Goku). It'd also keep his identity a secret, which he made a bigger deal over than the prize money. But that's admittedly conjecture so I can't really assert it as fact. It's just my opinion.

As for your second point, if "everyone" isn't in the original, then I don't see enough proof to say Vegeta knew Piccolo was entering when he made the statement saying he'd stay in base and win.

 

[Clearin]

#18 was only told to be suppressed against some Earthlings. Why should she be suppressed against a ridiculously powerful guy like base Trunks? There's not statement during the fight that proves she was suppressed. Why would she suppress herself to his exact level of power instead of a bit higher so she could one-shot him?

She doesn't know Mighty Mask is base Trunks. The only thing she's seen him do is one shot Killa, something BoDB Goku could probably do.