Six Trails' Battle Powers List

[ahill1]

1) Yea, Krillin's weighted shit is annoying. I'm going through the Saiyan Saga now, I'll get to you later. You should come check out my Raditz Arc Discussion when you can. When I finish that, I'll get into the rest of the Saiyan Saga and hopefully we can come up with something decent.

2) Yep. Very good spacing. I usually keep Vegeta in that 87.5-90% range of Freeza for my numbers. I stay within that range. Vegeta is pretty much rivaling, but he's at the end of the rivaling range. I think Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza is probably an appropriate comparison. Vegeta was much more sure of himself back then because he had back up. Now the powers have advanced too far and they can't help him out at all.
Damn. Now that I mention this... Fuck. This could fuck up my numbers big time if I actually apply it. But fuck it, continue on the path of truth! These damn levels will never ever be perfect god damn...

Ok, so....

Vegeta + Gohan + Krillin > Freeza = 530,000

This is what Vegeta suggests I believe when talking to Freeza about their chances. Hell, it's even possible Vegeta believes they will win against a Transformed Freeza as well is it not? A transformed Freeza expected to power up like Zarbon did. Damn... This shit gets scientific as fuck.

So why bring this up?

Well it doesn't seem implied at all that Piccolo and Gohan can offer any help to Vegeta. Vegeta is all on his own here. Again you ask, how is this relevant?

Perhaps this suggests just how massive Freeza's final transformation is. It's strong enough to make Piccolo and Gohan's combined help completely irrelevant...

I mean, am I reading this right or what? They aren't even an option at this point. Piccolo speaks about Goku and Freeza's power as if they are gods and think about the severity of the situation. It feels like Piccolo and Gohan are deemed helpless and relegated to the sidelines. Man... How about when Freeza is attacking all of them, Vegeta doesn't even think his aid will help because he's in shock is he not? Or does he just want to show off his power?

Sorry to get off into this massive derailment, but, I think it's worth looking into. What do you think?

Sounds like Kuririn and Gohan were more relevant to pre Zenkai Vegeta than what Piccolo is to post Zenkai Vegeta, right?

 

[p123]

That's completely debatable ahill. Don't waste this kid's time with highly subjective, opinionated debate. You should correct whatever is factually wrong first. (About Vegeta vs Piccolo Trunks Saga)

Yea, I think my assumptions may be correct ahill. Which opens up a can of worms. But a good one, as always. Another suggestion. Damn man...

If Vegeta jumps in right there while they are attacking Freeza, what happens? Honestly, Freeza appears pure god mode then, I don't think they can offer much help. What do you think? Don't forget Gohan. He should be included as well.

 

[ahill1]

That's completely debatable ahill. Don't waste this kid's time with highly subjective, opinionated debate. You should correct whatever is factually wrong first.

It might be debatable, but I am confident enough to have Piccolo considerably weaker than Vegeta in my battle power lists. I generally do have Piccolo at 3rd form Freeza ~ final Zenkai Vegeta, with Vegeta in the Mecha Freeza saga being at [Namek] base Goku's level of power.

 

[ahill1]

That's completely debatable ahill. Don't waste this kid's time with highly subjective, opinionated debate. You should correct whatever is factually wrong first. (About Vegeta vs Piccolo Trunks Saga)

Yea, I think my assumptions may be correct ahill. Which opens up a can of worms. But a good one, as always. Another suggestion. Damn man...

If Vegeta jumps in right there while they are attacking Freeza, what happens? Honestly, Freeza appears pure god mode then, I don't think they can offer much help. What do you think? Don't forget Gohan. He should be included as well.

It's somewhat tough to find an accurate placement for Kuririn. We know Vegeta considers his power as at least relevant to first form Freeza (and maybe even a hypothetical transfomed Freeza), but at the same time he is weak enough that he says his power isn't enough to hurt Vegeta. So, he is relevant to a hypothetical 2nd form Freeza while still being way weaker than pre Zenkai Vegeta? Something doesn't add up here.

 

[p123]

But see, you are factually incorrect. I'm getting sick of your shit. You have many flaws and act like you run shit.

How the fuck can Piccolo be confident at all in his abilities against Vegeta if he hasn't even surpassed Vegeta from Namek you fuckwit!

Vegeta (Trunks Saga) <=> Piccolo (Trunks Saga) >> Vegeta (Namek) is the proper chain. It's subjective who's stronger, but Piccolo has definitely surpassed Vegeta's previous power.

 

[ahill1]

That's my take on the whole situation:


Piccolo challenging Vegeta isn't necessarily a take on his own power, but his personality instead... it's true that he won't pick up a fight he knows he has no chance, but he will also not let someone arrogant as Vegeta to talk shit and have his way out. Also, interesting enough, Piccolo does react kind of in a different way in the Mecha Freeza saga when Vegeta does taunt him compared to his other "scuffles" with Vegeta where we know he was stronger. In the Freeza saga he still keeps his cool and just calmly tells Vegeta that his turn will arrive... the same with his post Kami-self, where he doesn't even reply Vegeta back and allows Vegeta to have the last word, a pretty "harsh" last word worth saying, in which Vegeta asks Piccolo if this latter wants to be the 1st to get killed. Here in the Mecha Freeza saga Piccolo is visibly more annoyed at Vegeta's provocation, with his arms up and even with his tone of voice raised if we do consider the anime... in contrast Vegeta doesn't seem to be annoyed at all at Piccolo and we kind of do see how annoyed Vegeta gets when someone stronger than him does taunt and/or challenges him (e.g being annoyed at Goku stating he's way stronger than Vegeta and also being annoyed at Kamiccolo talking back to him when he also knew he was severely outclassed). 

Piccolo's reaction towards Vegeta's provocation does remember me more his reaction towards Raditz taunting him, where he does look visibly annoyed, like if he were aware the provocation is coming from someone of superior power IMO. I don't think it's comparable with him taking a shot against 2nd form Freeza when he knew he was up there with him or him taking a shot against the Saiyajins when he at least knew he was way above the last Saiyajin that came to the Earth... it's just his ego talking louder at the moment and not letting Vegeta have his way out with those snarky comments... in the anime Vegeta is even calling the shots iirc.

I don't think Piccolo is taking the leadership at the Mecha Freeza saga. What we know about Piccolo there going off of my memory:

1 -- he is the one to apparently get there the first, but the Z warriors didn't notice him there because he was with his chi suppressed, and then he gets praised because of it by Vegeta, calling him a "true warrior"... that's far from a compliment on his strength or an indicator that he got way stronger honestly, it's just indicating he seems aware of the situation and is kind of better prepared than the others, who didn't even bother in suppressing their chi -- maybe because they thought the enemy hadn't those Scouters;

2 -- he states to Yamcha that it doesn't make a difference whether they stay there or go to fight, considering their fate will be the same... he knew fully well they were going to be killed and that they had no chance, but as a warrior he prefers to take the shot and fight in the front line than dying other way -- much like Tenshinhan in the androids saga, who also knew he had no chance but thought it was best to die fighting than any other way. He is every bit petrified at Freeza's power as are the others;

3 -- he then gets surprised when a mysterious huge chi appears out of nowhere and is surprised like the others that Freeza got killed easily;

4 -- he is the only one --besides Goku --that hears Trunks' story due to his good ears and then tells everyone the cruel reality. He also gives Yamcha another "wash of reality" and tells them that if they don't want to train, then it's their choice, but he'll train as hard as he can because he doesn't want to get killed... also tells everyone that the enemy this time will be unthinkably powerful and that it's better for the ones who lack confidence not to show up because they'd be just dragging them out... then it comes Vegeta's provocation and his answer towards it.


Like you can see, there's not much to which you can denote a "leadership" position... he has some cool speechs, but nothing to denote this so much superiority here imo. If we take into consideration his line about showing Yamcha what was going to happen and that it doesn't make a difference whether they stay there or fight, we also have Vegeta:

--> Scolding Tenshinhan and Yamcha for not suppressing their chi;
--> Stating to everyone that that would be the end of the Earth;
--> Stating that they should approach the 'battlefield' by walking so they wouldn't be noticed;
--> Being the 1st one to fly once he noticed Freeza was killed;

Not too much different imo. Granted that Piccolo and Vegeta may have appeared more, but again, they were the strongest ones there and such. 

Anyway, that'd be my opinion on Mecha Freeza saga Piccolo's power... I don't think he necessarily does need to be that much of a powerhouse, and having him above by one level compared to his Freeza saga self may suffice imo.

 

[p123]

All of that to come to the wrong conclusion. As I said, Piccolo wouldn't say boo to Vegeta should he be weaker than Vegeta was on Namek. Don't forget Goku's comment suggesting that it was either Piccolo or Vegeta who defeated Freeza. Piccolo's stock has risen, he's given a lot of screen time in this short saga and the next saga suggest that his potential is far greater than that of a Base Saiyan. If Piccolo is now capable of running on par with the Super Saiyans, why the fuck would he be only progressing as fast as a Base Saiyan back then? It's the same Piccolo, without the Super Saiyan sparring partner and Death is Coming incentive.

Super Saiyans >= Piccolo >>>> Base Saiyans, in terms of potential and progression. Which is why Piccolo should have zoomed up right behind Vegeta in that short saga.

Now, overall, his disposition, I agree with you. I think your points suggest that Piccolo perhaps is somewhere in the 80-85% range rather than any closer. Perhaps the same gap as had in the Androids Saga is appropriate here since Vegeta is so un-bothered.

But overall, the proper chain would be...

Vegeta > Piccolo >> Vegeta Namek.

 

[ahill1]

All of that to come to the wrong conclusion. As I said, Piccolo wouldn't say boo to Vegeta should he be weaker than Vegeta was on Namek. Don't forget Goku's comment suggesting that it was either Piccolo or Vegeta who defeated Freeza. Piccolo's stock has risen, he's given a lot of screen time in this short saga and the next saga suggest that his potential is far greater than that of a Base Saiyan. If Piccolo is now capable of running on par with the Super Saiyans, why the fuck would he be only progressing as fast as a Base Saiyan back then? It's the same Piccolo, without the Super Saiyan sparring partner and Death is Coming incentive.

Super Saiyans >= Piccolo >>>> Base Saiyans, in terms of potential and progression. Which is why Piccolo should have zoomed up right behind Vegeta in that short saga.

Now, overall, his disposition, I agree with you. I think your points suggest that Piccolo perhaps is somewhere in the 80-85% range rather than any closer. Perhaps the same gap as had in the Androids Saga is appropriate here since Vegeta is so un-bothered.

But overall, the proper chain would be...

Vegeta > Piccolo >> Vegeta Namek.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I shouldn't bother addressing the "Piccolo wouldn't say boo to Vegeta" because that's pretty much you repeating what you have said whereas my entire post was focused on that.

As for Piccolo's growth rate, I agree with you, but I am still generally adamant on assigning a huge increase to him there due to the absence of strong evidence surrounding him surpassing or matching the base Saiyajins there, with him challenging base Vegeta coming more from a Piccolo who is still proud and won't simply let Vegeta talk shit than from one who thinks he is there power wise imo. Vegeta doesn't seem bothered with Piccolo's challenge either, and we see how Vegeta does generally look when the challenge is coming from an opponent with superior power.

Whilst you could force an In-Universe explanation into this huge increase from Piccolo, it's worth noting that training with a SSJ has also benefited a lot, plus there's always a bit of plot surrounding those huge ass jumps in powers. Similarly, we saw that Beginning of Z Piccolo wasn't that different from his 23rd Budokai self training for 5 years, yet one year and some portion of it being spent on teaching Gohan the basics wielded huge gains, with Piccolo going from the 400 range to the 2,000 range, multiplying his power by 5. Heck, going by your battle powers, in which Piccolo in the Mecha Freeza saga had a BP of 7,000,000 and his androids saga a battle power of 1,000,000,000, we can conclude that his increase in the Saiyajins saga was proportionally more or less the same as the one he received when training for the androids, as according to your numbers Piccolo would have received less than a 6x increase a year.

Piccolo (beginning of Z) : 408
Piccolo (Saiyajins saga) : 2,100
--> increase : ~5.1x a year

Piccolo (trunks saga) : 7,000,000
Piccolo (androids saga) : 1,000,000,000
--> increase : ~5.1x a year

So proportionally, androids saga Piccolo's increase might have not been even bigger than the one he received in the androids saga. So I think plot definitely adds in justifying why Piccolo got that strong in the androids saga, just like the plot made his gains training for the Saiyajins more significant than the ones he received training for 5 years, and we know part of the 6 months were spent on him shaping Gohan into a warrior.

 

[p123]

You can forget about numbers with Piccolo. He has the more volatile increases out of anyone. Factually speaking, there's no reason for Piccolo to be weaker than Namek Vegeta.

You are wrong. There were big increases between 23rd Budokai and Raditz Saga. They are stated to have trained desperately in both of these sagas. You are just making shit up like always. There should be quite significant gains in power in the 5 year gap and the 2 year gap back on Earth.

 

[ahill1]

You can forget about numbers with Piccolo. He has the more volatile increases out of anyone. Factually speaking, there's no reason for Piccolo to be weaker than Namek Vegeta.

No, because we have battle power given in the manga to him in the beginning of Z, and we know he should have been at least way stronger than 1,200 against Raditz. So yeah, we have there a solid indication of how much stronger Piccolo got. We also know he was more than one million upon fusing with Nail and at least more than 150 millions after training with Goku. So again, we can have a kind of accurate estimation on his power, battle power-wise. Personally, I wouldn't have Piccolo anywhere close to 1 billion in the androids saga, although yeah, I wouldn't have him anywhere close to 7,000,000 in the Mecha Freeza saga.

You are wrong. There were big increases between 23rd Budokai and Raditz Saga. They are stated to have trained desperately in both of these sagas. You are just making shit up like always. There should be quite significant gains in power in the 5 year gap and the 2 year gap back on Earth.

I am not making things up "like aways". Unless you think Piccolo's increase in the 5 years was anywhere close to the increase he got training for the Saiyajins. And I know even you aren't fool enough to believe in something like that.

The point is that he just got a huge ass increase when it was needed. When the huge increase wasn't needed, 5 years of training didn't grant him nearly the same boost as he received from 1 year of training for the Saiyajins, you fool.

So, even you should realize by now that the huge gainz generally do happen when the heroes are aware of a huge enemy coming up and the increase is made necessary... which wasn't necessary to Mecha saga Piccolo, with his confidence being open for other interpretations.

 

[p123]

Your first mistake is thinking there is any rhyme or reason towards increases. It's literally all plot.

 

[ahill1]

Your first mistake is thinking there is any rhyme or reason towards increases. It's literally all plot.

Which is my point since the beginning... to which I then conclude you haven't been giving proper attention to my posts.

 

[Victorious]

I think Vegeta is only very very marginally superior to Piccolo in the Mecha arc. Like SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza gap except Piccolo doesn't have stamina issues. I also think both are above base Goku on Namek as well..perhaps even significantly above. Yet Yardrat Goku's base is probably still at least 1.5x Vegeta. Obviously Piccolo crushes Vegeta final zenkai on Namek like Freeza did.

 

[p123]

I'm probably going to go with them having the same gap as they did in the Androids Saga from now on.

 

[Victorious]

I'm probably going to go with them having the same gap as they did in the Androids Saga from now on.

Why though? Piccolo should be closer. Would Piccolo Androids challenge SSJ Vegeta? I don't think so.

 

[p123]

No, he certainly would not. But Piccolo is aware of Super Saiyan Vegeta's power advantage. Piccolo has probably surpassed Vegeta Namek's power by a large enough margin to think he's at least within range of Vegeta. Vegeta's calm demeanor suggests that Piccolo is still not quite there yet, but I think he's caught up a whole lot.

 

[ahill1]

I have it like this in the androids saga:

Piccolo : 2,250,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000

Mecha Freeza : 160,000,000
Trunks SSJ : 200,000,000
Goku SSJ : 220,000,000

That's going with Goku at 150M. It sounds reasonable enough for me.

 

[Victorious]

So basically ur take is Piccolo is not aware of Vegeta's power in the Trunks arc. Ok that makes sense. But at the very least Piccolo would know after 1 year and 260 days that Vegeta would be much stronger than the last time he saw him in action.

 

[ahill1]

So basically ur take is Piccolo is not aware of Vegeta's power in the Trunks arc. Ok that makes sense. But at the very least Piccolo would know after 1 year and 260 days that Vegeta would be much stronger than the last time he saw him.

I like my numbers for the trunks saga. I think they do reflect well what happened on the saga. I also do like the advantage I have for Goku compared to mecha saga Trunks. 1.1x sounds okay to me.

 

[p123]

Exactly. You know how this story is. It's quite ridiculous. How the fuck can Trunks and Goten discovering Super Saiyan not be noticed? Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. I mean, really? Every time these fucking people train, the whole world, at least the ones who can sense ki, should be on edge. If a suppressed Freeza and his father can shock the shit out of people from outside of the damn planet, how the hell can these people not notice. But yea... That's what I'm getting at. Ahill brings up a good point about Vegeta's demeanor.

Piccolo unaware of Vegeta's current power knows he has to be somewhere within Vegeta's level. Perhaps we can go further and say that he sees Goku's progression and can somewhat estimate Vegeta's progression. But all in all, I think that's a safe bet...

Vegeta (Earth) > Piccolo (Earth) >> Vegeta (Namek) >>> Piccolo (Namek)

Piccolo has made stupid gains. Tremendous gains, but he's still a bit behind. I like it.

@ Ahill

Your points are stupid. Vegeta (Namek) > Piccolo is stupid. Yardrat Goku being 1.1x Trunks, is fucking stupid. Your ass is blocked.