SSj Goku (Namek) vs Android #19 (pre-Absorption)

[Pakl]

I have 19 pre at 170 million and Gero at 200 million

Gero is as strong as SSjin Future Trunks IMO

19 wins with some difficuties

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Were he as strong as you suggest him to be, Tenshinhan and Goku wouldn't even see the blast coming, regardless of whether he was aiming at them or not or was going all out or not.
Piccolo and co. couldn't even see Freeza's beam aimed at Dende, after all.

Uh, Goku kinda yelled at him before he hit him, so I doubt he was off-guard.

Maybe Base Goku doesn't, but those oh so-strong androids treat YAMCHA, of all people, as a large source of energy.

 

[Lord Beerus]

#19 kicks Goku's ass.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Were he as strong as you suggest him to be, Tenshinhan and Goku wouldn't even see the blast coming, regardless of whether he was aiming at them or not or was going all out or not.
Piccolo and co. couldn't even see Freeza's beam aimed at Dende, after all.

Uh, Goku kinda yelled at him before he hit him, so I doubt he was off-guard.

Maybe Base Goku doesn't, but those oh so-strong androids treat YAMCHA, of all people, as a large source of energy.

Speed/Reaction feats become less apparent as the series goes on. Most of the Zet-Senshi could keep track of Goku's battle with Cell, despite a similar gap between them as between them and Freeza in your example. Even Cell's "true speed" wasn't something that they noted to be outside of their field of vision.

Goku punching Gero still means nothing. Unless you believe that in some way, knocking off a hat, a piece of clothing that serves no purpose, is somehow a noteworthy power feat.

Of course they'd consider Yamcha a large power source. Prior to this arc, the highest power Gero had recorded was Oozaru Vegeta and stated he didn't believe Goku would make any large gains in power after the battle with Vegeta. For Yamcha to appear with such power, who's heavily implied to outrank both by an excessive amount, there's no reason for him to be considered anything other than exceptional by that standard.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Could be said for amplification too.

It doesn't.It shows Base Gero isn't an invincible powerhouse to Base Goku.
He didn't just knock off his hat, he moved his head to the side.

Do you honestly think a guy stronger than Freeza would consider Yamcha to be a large powersource?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It doesn't.It shows Base Gero isn't an invincible powerhouse to Base Goku.
He didn't just knock off his hat, he moved his head to the side.

Do you honestly think a guy stronger than Freeza would consider Yamcha to be a large powersource?

And Gero wasn't damaged in the slightest, making the feat meaningless. You seriously think that the cavalcade of statements for Gero's power are left meaningless just because his head was moved slightly?

He would when the previously highest power he'd ever witnessed was one with a battle power below 180k. Freeza gave Goku a lot of praise for being above Ginyu, after all, so Gero finding someone who's power totally eclipsed Saiyan Arc Goku and Oozaru Vegeta, despite his estimations on Goku's growth, are expected.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Neither was Gohan, when Cell punched him, but would you say there, that Gohan was tens of times stronger?
There are no statements for Base Gero's power, for the record.

Even if Yamcha was the so far strongest enemy he found, he still wouldn't consider him to be large source of ki.
Furthermore, Goku and Piccolo say his fatal mistake was the lack of knowledge on Goku's Super Saiyan form, not their training.
So if Gero and 19 were stronger than Namek SSJ Goku, then obviously Goku's Super Saiyan form wouldn't have mattered.

 

[LordBeefdip]

Android 20 budged at Base Goku's punch and 19 is weaker.
So Goku stomps.

Piccolo with Krillin and Gohan's energy sent 50% Frieza flying with a surprise kick. A nearly 60x difference in power.

SSj Trunks sent Fat Buu flying with a kick as well, and we know Fat Buu was several orders of magnitude stronger than Trunks.

Not that they were hurt by the surprise attacks, but it shows that someone stronger can be knocked away by a weaker fighter.

Having said that, I put 19 as somewhere between 100% Frieza and Cyborg Frieza, and 20 as on par or just a bit above Cyborg Frieza.

So SSj Namek Goku would win, but it wouldn't be a complete stomp.

This is how I see it:

SSj Goku (Post Yardrat): 170,000,000
SSj Goku (Namek): 150,000,000
Gero/20: 135,000,000
19: Around 125,000,000 to 130,000,000

FYI, I place post 3 years Piccolo as right around Post Yardrat Goku.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Well obviously.But Goku didn't hit Gero off-guard, he even yelled at him before hitting him and Gero was well aware of his presence.

 

[Pyro]

I vaguely recall having this exact discussion on Neoseeker. I'll see if I can dig up the thread later, but for now I'm saying what the hell does yelling do to diminish it being a surprise attack? Unless 20 turned and saw the attack, it's a surprise attack.

Yeah, here it is, though it wasn't you.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1704534-catouttahells-battle-powers-list/8.htm

 

[Papasmurf]

Honestly every time I see Gokhanfan debating I just see him being disproven within 9 posts and then starting to resort to outright denial and defending his faulty arguments.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Exactly how is it a surprise attack, when he is aware of Goku and the others standing in front of him, ready to charge at him at any given moment?
Furthermore, when Piccolo and Trunks attacked Freeza/Buu off-guard, they sent him flying dozens of feet back.
When Goku attacked Gero ''off-guard'', he only moved him back a little.
If Goku actually hit Gero off-guard, he would sent Gero flying through the buildings behind him.
If you want to go even further, 19 powers up drastically from Sick SSJ Goku's amplified Kamehameha, yet even that still isn't enough for him to effectively damage Vegeta, who is ''even greater'' than Trunks.
That Kamehameha would have to be pretty pathetic, if it couldn't propell a 100% Freeza guy to SSJ Vegeta's level.

Honestly every time I see Gokhanfan debating I just see him being disproven within 9 posts and then starting to resort to outright denial and defending his faulty arguments.

It's not my fault people mostly resort to excuses.

 

[Pyro]

It doesn't matter if he's aware of Goku's presence or not. He's not expecting Goku to sucker punch him at that moment, hence a surprise attack; the effect of that attack is largely irrelevant as no surprise attack is exactly the same. Freeza was aware of who was sticking around the battlefield and he still didn't expect Piccolo to come out of nowhere with that kick.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

How do you explain 19 being so weak even after sucking up Goku's Kamehameha?

 

[POOHEAD189]

It was a surprise attack. It's acceptable that he would budge from it.
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It doesn't matter if he's aware of Goku's presence or not. He's not expecting Goku to sucker punch him at that moment, hence a surprise attack; the effect of that attack is largely irrelevant as no surprise attack is exactly the same. Freeza was aware of who was sticking around the battlefield and he still didn't expect Piccolo to come out of nowhere with that kick.

Most surprise attacks happen from behind or to the side. Android 20 simply wasn't fast enough to register Goku coming at him until it happened. When Piccolo knocked Freiza into the water, he not only had more power than Freiza anticipated, but he did it completely at Freiza's blind side.
Goku straight up hits Gero right in his face from the front. I would garner Gero wasn't entirely expecting an attack to be a bit weak of an argument, seeing as he knows killing civilians in front of Goku would provoke them. I think Gero was more caught unaware of Goku's speed. Yamcha's PL was a big gain apparently to the Androids. Even if Yamcha's PL was 10% of the Androids, Goku's would be greater and I don't see base Goku here being stronger than Namek Goku.
Either way, I see it as a fine fight but Namek Goku wins in the end.

 

[Dioxide]

Base Goku being able to budge #20 seems to be blowing out of proportions. There is no panel where #20 is shown to be reacting to Goku's attack, nor would #20 use much effort to stand and destroy a city. The fact that it is a surprise attack would hardly qualify it as an actual feat.

It has been established that with too much of a power difference, the mechanics of the Androids are not powerful enough to withstand the force of the blows.

Something that is not shown happen when Goku fights #19.

That being said, #19 is established to be far beyond Base Saiyans and in the territory of the Super Saiyans.

 

[Pyro]

How do you explain 19 being so weak even after sucking up Goku's Kamehameha?

I'm uncertain what you're trying to say here. That he can't be so far above the Base Saiyans because he ended up so weak anyway? If that's it, then I don't believe that means he had to have started out incredibly weak. We don't know for certain how much his power increased, just that it increased a lot. It's not as simple as adding the Kamehameha's power to whatever you've got #19 at.

It was a surprise attack. It's acceptable that he would budge from it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't matter if he's aware of Goku's presence or not. He's not expecting Goku to sucker punch him at that moment, hence a surprise attack; the effect of that attack is largely irrelevant as no surprise attack is exactly the same. Freeza was aware of who was sticking around the battlefield and he still didn't expect Piccolo to come out of nowhere with that kick.

Most surprise attacks happen from behind or to the side. Android 20 simply wasn't fast enough to register Goku coming at him until it happened. When Piccolo knocked Freiza into the water, he not only had more power than Freiza anticipated, but he did it completely at Freiza's blind side.
Goku straight up hits Gero right in his face from the front. I would garner Gero wasn't entirely expecting an attack to be a bit weak of an argument, seeing as he knows killing civilians in front of Goku would provoke them. I think Gero was more caught unaware of Goku's speed. Yamcha's PL was a big gain apparently to the Androids. Even if Yamcha's PL was 10% of the Androids, Goku's would be greater and I don't see base Goku here being stronger than Namek Goku.
Either way, I see it as a fine fight but Namek Goku wins in the end.

Gero was blasting the city. He wasn't watching Goku. More likely he assumed his blasting of the city would get Goku riled up, not prompt Goku to sucker punch him.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dragon_Ball-buyao_daolian_ya/0.jp_Kanzenban/DRAGONBALLvol23/147-sNsFZ.jpg

We also disagree on Goku's power. I've got him still stronger than his post-Yardrat self until he hits the Kamehameha, since nobody mentioned such a big power discrepancy until he transformed and Piccolo brought it up.

 

[Lord Brofist]

Goku has to be significantly stronger than his Post Yardrat self. How much weaker he is healthy can be anyone's guess but he must be stronger by a notable amount from his Yardrat self. The reason for this has already been given, everyone expects the cyborgs to be so strong that someone of Yardrat Goku's level (Whom was the same level as Trunks, bit more if you must) would have stood no chance against them. That's something that Trunks made very clear.

If Goku was anywhere near his Yardrat level of power, everyone would have made note of that. But this doesn't happen so its only smart to believe that even if Goku isn't able to reach into his full power, what he does show off should be notably above a level that everyone else knew would get its butt kicked by the cyborgs.

Which of course allows people like No. 19 and No. 20 a lot more leg room to move about. If No. 19 was weaker than Namek Goku, he would have been ripped to shreds worse than what Vegeta did to him, the simple gap would have been tremendous.

 

[SSJ2]

Poor Goku. 19 pre should be above Yardrat Goku in my opinion, given how Piccolo wasn't sure whether the androids were too weak, or the Z fighters were too strong.

 

[Pyro]

What kind of gains would be make by absorbing then?