Super Saiyan 2/3 Multipliers

[p123]

Alright so I've been playing around with Gohan's Rage boost being that extra oomph that makes his power so overwhelming in the Cell Game.


Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Enraged) 250
Super Perfect Cell 240
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan 200
Perfect Cell 150
Super Saiyan Gohan 100
Perfect Cell (Vs Gohan) 100


So using a 2x boost, look how smoothly that works. His rage boost is not tremendous enough to where his regular Super Saiyan 2 power would be a joke, but it's also not so big that he could take on Super Perfect Cell. I like this a lot.

Let's see how it looks with the Buu Saga powers.

Fat Buu (Initial) 300
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Majin Vegeta 275
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta 225
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan 175
Super Saiyan Goku/Majin Vegeta 137.5
Super Saiyan Vegeta 112.5
Super Saiyan Gohan 87.5


One could argue that Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are getting too close here, but I think it's still manageable. Remember, the only thing that really suggests Super Saiyan 2's boost is tremendous is Gohan at the Cell Game, which if we factor in any sort of rage boost, pretty much diminishes the need for any additional boost.

Let's look at Super Saiyan 3's boost. I always felt 4x was unnecessary, if anything, I always felt the official multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 should be switched. Let's try a 2x boost for Super Saiyan 3 and see how it feels.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku 550
Majin Buu (Full Power) 450
Majin Buu (Powered Up) 325
Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta 275

I mean really, do we need much bigger of a gap then this? Majin Vegeta is 84% of Majin Buu's powered up level. This is the level that Vegeta thinks he may die going up against, but Goku says if he and Vegeta team up, that they can definitely win. I think that's fair. Then Majin Buu does another tremendous power up and completely sets himself apart. I'm giving him nearly a 1.4x power up, which is more than fair and Majin Vegeta is now around 60% of Majin Buu. That's plenty of a gap for Buu's feats to be performed. We don't need a multi level gap here for this. We really don't.

And this also sets up Gotenks being much more reasonable, minus Base > SS of course.


Super Saiyan Vegetto 12,500
Buuhan 7,500
Buutenks 6,200
Ultimate Gohan 4,500
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks 3,200
Super Buu 3,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks 1,600
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Post Rosat) 800
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre Rosat) 600
Super Saiyan 3 Goku 550

Even giving Gotenks a big boost Post Rosat, adding the forms makes things so much better it's not even funny. Super Buu and Gotenks are around 6x stronger than Goku and Gohan is about 8x stronger than Goku. Hell, even Super Saiyan Vegetto is only about 20x stronger than Goku. This keeps Goku about as relevant and respectable as one possibly could.

From what I see, this is definitely a great way to handle this. I don't really see too many flaws here. What do you guys think.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I view SSJ2 as a potential unlock that varies with the user. Gohan has a greater boost from SSJ2 than
Goku/Vegeta because of his greater potential. At Cell Games, he had all his SSJ2 power all the time,
but he only used it during the last moments of the beam struggle. When he tooled FP Cell (pre zenkai),
he was just toying, whereas, during the greatest part of the beam struggle, he was afraid of destroying
the planet. He did not need further rage to go FPSSJ2 though, he could do it at any time he decided to
cut loose.
7 years later, Gohan's SSJ2 boost is smaller than Goku's/Vegeta's, because he slacked off and he cannot
draw out all his SSJ2 power unless he gets really mad.
About SSJ3, 3x is sufficient, if you go with Fat Buu= Grey Buu + Good Buu and Good Buu>SSJ2s.
Fusions have smaller transformation boosts than individual fighters.

 

[ahill1]

I am also rolling with a rage boost on top of SSJ2 nowadays, although I generally go with a 1.1~1.2x boost on top of SSJ2.

Son Gohan SSJ - 90
Perfect Cell - 120
Super Perfect Cell - 180
Son Gohan SSJ2 - 200

Boo Saga

Son Gohan SSJ - 80
Vegeta SSJ - 92
Son Goku SSJ - 110
Son Gohan SSJ2 - 160
Vegeta SSJ2 - 184
Majin/Goku - 220


That way, Goku SSJ is no longer so relevant to teen Gohan SSJ2/Dabura. I dunno about you, but I have always liked the Kiri scene in the anime, in which Babidi states Dabura's kiri surpasses 4,000... and we know SSJ Goku had 3,000 kiris. If we assume Goku was full power there, then Dabura is about 1.4x stronger than SSJ Goku, so SSJ2 teen Gohan would also be about 1.4x above SSJ Goku, the strongest Super Saiyajin. We generally assume Goku wasn't at full power there because of the Dabura vs Gohan SSJ1 scenario... but if we roll with the SSJ2 standpoint as well, there's nothing implying Goku wasn't at full power as a SSJ there, is there?

I think you could bring up Yakon's kiri reading being around 800 and therefore base Goku being around there as well, so if Goku were at full power there, then the SSJ multiplier would be about 4x... but that's assuming the Kiri meter scales linearly with the battle power system (we at least know that a 3,000 kiri isn't equivalent to a 3,000 BP in the scouter system, of course). But even if it does scale linearly, there's nothing exactly preventing a SSJ being a ~4x there, right? It's suggested the base Saiyajins are really relevant at the Boo saga, with Gohan being comfortable enough in fighting Piccolo even in his normal state, so a multiplier as 'low' as a few times could come in hand here. I personally am nowadays using a 10x multiplier for SSJ1, but nothing wrong with a 4x one imo.


Now, regarding the SSJ3 multiplier, I'd really be okay with a 2x one (it even matches the implications of fat Boo not being too much more than 2x SSJ2 teen Gohan), but i find problems in adopting it due to the Good Boo > SSJ2 Vegeta scenario. We know that, according to the narrator, the majority of Fat Boo's power went to Grey Boo when Fat Boo expelled the latter, so Good Boo << 50% of Fat Boo's power... and yet we could clearly see that Good Boo performed better than SSJ2 Vegeta agsinst Kid Boo. Unless we assume that Good Boo regained the power he had before expelling Grey Boo, a 4x SSJ3 multiplier would be necessary here to keep Fat Boo as much stronger than Majin Vegeta SSJ2 as we need.


As for SSJ Gotenks >> Base Gotenks post... I could see the whole scene in the RoSaT section being a setup for a gag, as we can see Piccolo is clearly face palming himself after the event. But it's worth noting that the end of Z section implies that base Goku may be already approaching Kid Boo's tier based on him keeping up rather well against Ood, who was later stated to match Goku's expectations. So, if base Gotenks isn't really that strong, would we have end of Z Goku already considerably above Gotenks and maybe even Gohan? Not saying that shall not be the case, but i don't know how I feel about that. I have always liked to see Goku in the end of Z approaching Gotenks and Gohan whilst still being some steps belwow them.


Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Victorious]

Gohan's tank on FP PC suggests a bigger gap than 75%. Not sure a 100 to 75 gap is enough for Gohan's offensive feats either with the two shot. Its not like Cell was just damaged a lot by two shots....he was basically temporally crippled and brought to his knees.

 

[p123]

You talking to me Vic?

I have Cell at 60% of Gohan. Cell only fought Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, never fought regular Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. What do you think Vic? It looks pretty damn decent right?

@Withheld

SS2 is not a potential unlock at all. It just happened that one time with Gohan at the Cell Game. You keep dismissing Gohan, but he is special. He has something else to him that the other don't. Evil + Good = Fat is irrelevant since it's quite likely Good regained Fat's power after emerging from Kid. Now that's a mouthful.

 

[Victorious]

Ahh I get it. Yes 60% is perfect.

 

[p123]

Overall, what do you think? With the 2x boost for both forms?

 

[Victorious]

The gaps look solid. The multipliers I.don't like. I don't like 2x. I go with high ki amplification so I'd prefer SSJ2 to be >> a full power KHH from an MSSJ.

 

[p123]

It still can be under my system. The entire reason why you have Kamehameha is because of those horrid numbers given in the Raditz Arc.

Super Perfect Cell still had to block one of Super Saiyan Vegeta's raged attacks. And that was quite the massive gap. Amplification abilities are supposed to be able to close the gap quite a bit.

In a perfect world, Super Saiyan 2 tanks a Super Saiyan's full power blast. But we haven't seen anything in the manga that suggests that's the case. Same for Super Saiyan 2 and 3. It's unlikely that Super Saiyan 3 Goku can completely tank Majin Vegeta's "Final Explosion".

 

[Victorious]

Also is Gohan really only like 3-3.5x the Cell Juniors? Nahh that fucker is like 10x those little guys. I mean cosmic dusted.

 

[p123]

According to my numbers, it would be about a 6x gap. Is there really a difference between 6x and 10x? Also as I said, Super Perfect Cell had to block Vegeta's attacks, meanwhile Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was one shot exploding the Cell Juniors.

 

[Victorious]

He didn't really block them. He did brace himself though.

 

[p123]

Ok.
Also, that whole segment is really amped up to make it a big deal. Super Perfect Cell couldn't one shot explode Vegeta with a punch. That just wouldn't happen. It's mainly because it's the Cell Juniors, who don't have the regenerative ability of Cell and who knows, they are babies essentially, perhaps their bodies work differently than a Saiyans.

Also, let's not forget Vegeta's attack at the end of the Gohan vs Cell clash. Sure, it doesn't damage him much, but it does effect him. Do you really think a blast that it 8x weaker is going to get the job done there?

Massively reduce the amplified blasts and massively reduce the power levels. Now we are working with something decent.

 

[Victorious]

Your numbers work P. I just don't like an SSJ hurting an SSJ2. I think SSJ2 Gohan easily tanks MSSJ Goku's warp KHH. I also like SSJ2 being >= SSJG3...and SSJG3 is way higher than 2x SSJ.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

@Withheld

SS2 is not a potential unlock at all. It just happened that one time with Gohan at the Cell Game. You keep dismissing Gohan, but he is special. He has something else to him that the other don't. Evil + Good = Fat is irrelevant since it's quite likely Good regained Fat's power after emerging from Kid. Now that's a mouthful.

SSJ2 was meant to be unique to Gohan, but, since it was retconned into a plain SSJ upgrade, my explanation
is that Gohan's SSJ2 just wields a better boost than the others' because Gohan is special, not that there is
a distinction between Normal SSJ2 and Enraged SSJ2.
There are many ways to view Evil + Good = Fat. Good Buu doesn't have to be stronger than SSJ2s; in the past,
i opened a whole thread to analyze that.

 

[Six Trails]

I like 5x for SS2 and 4x for SS3. Most people say that SS3 should be a bigger boost than SS2, but I like to go against the grain. :elmo

I also think 2x is way too small for SS3 since Good Boo is still >>> SS2 Vegeta despite being less than half of Fat Boo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ2 = 5x SSJ and SSJ3 = 10x SSJ2 IMO. I don't really like the Rage boost theory, SSJ2 was already his rage and nothing implies he had anything else in the top of it, only on the end of the beam struggle.

I think SSJ3 multiplier over SSJ2 should be > SSJ2 multiplier over SSJ based on how powerful the transformation is made to be.

 

[p123]

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

[ahill1]

Can someone post the panel in which Vegeta SSJG2 launched a few chi attacks on Perfect Cell, who was still warming up? I am pretty sure Cell didn't even bother defending himself from those blasts, he just completely walked through them. If we take Super Perfect Cell still being in a defensive position as meaning anything pertaining the gap, then [warming up] PC's gap over SSJG2 Vegeta >> SPC's gap over [Cell Games] Vegeta SSJ, which can't work unless you have the former being a multifold gap. Either that, or Vegeta got a rage boost when attacking Cell, which I know some people do have on their lists as a way to accomodate with Battle of Gods' implications.

I have Cell Games Vegeta around 55% of Goku's powers, with the Cell Juniors being around 57%. I do have a 1.1x between kid Gohan and SPC, so comparatively speaking ssj2 Kid Gohan's gap over a mini Cell would be bigger than SPC's gap over Vegeta, which maybe then explains why Vegeta's head wasn't exploded by SPC's punch? Dunno, either that or one shot gaps are never meant to be linear... or Vegeta is just a more durable mofo compared to the mini little buddy Junior Cell.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta was already pretty strained from launching the Final Flash though.