Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto vs. SVB2
- Thread starter Six Trails
- Start date
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
There's a difference though.
When Goku sense Baby, he stated that he never felt an awesome ki in his entire life.
When Goku sense Baby, he stated that he never felt an awesome ki in his entire life.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 9,203
Because nobody before SVB1 surpassed Super Vegetto.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
He just keep repeating the argument about GTfollowed the Anime and not the manga.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 3,424
- Age
- 28
Just because Goku said Baby was the strongst ki he felt doesn't mean he surpassed only Vegetto
It's possible Baby is the first one to be mentioned because he was the main vilain of the BoGT
GT Base Goku is already stonger than Rildo who is stronger than all the Boos and Base Goku > GT SSjin Gohan who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan
GT is TOEI so how can it follow the Manga? Vegetto is fodder
It's possible Baby is the first one to be mentioned because he was the main vilain of the BoGT
GT Base Goku is already stonger than Rildo who is stronger than all the Boos and Base Goku > GT SSjin Gohan who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan
GT is TOEI so how can it follow the Manga? Vegetto is fodder
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
I hope this helps. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8394889/1/Guliver said:
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
If you read it then you'll know why GT can't follow the Anime.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
It seems like your ignoring the link. Lets just quote it anyway.
All credit goes to Pyrus.
PART I: The Boo Saga
To begin, we have to start with the Boo arc in the Z anime. Three times by different characters, Kid Boo is stated to be the most powerful form of Majin Boo - once by Kibitoshin, once by Goku, and once by the narrator himself. In the Dragon Book that comes with Dragon Box 7, Kid Boo is also stated to be the strongest Boo. During the time Goku and Vegeta spend in the body of Super Boo, they fight memories of Gohan, Gotenks, and Piccolo. Vegeta fights Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo, and Goku fights Ultimate Gohan. In the Japanese version, after Gohan knocks Goku back, the full-blooded Saiyan states that this memory of his son is just as strong as the real one. This is also supported by the memories' entry in Daizenshuu 7, which states: "Their power is on par with their real counterparts, and even when defeated they immediately revive." [1] Initially, Goku was overwhelmed by the Fake Gohan, but when he turned Super Saiyan, he took the advantage, if only by a little; on the other hand, Vegeta was becoming overwhelmed by the combined assault of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo. To make matters worse, the fakes did not grow tired and, as their guidebook entry states, came back like new each time they were beaten. The two full-blooded Saiyans were in a pickle until Boo became distracted by some cakes, but this situation showed that at that point, Toei considered Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta to be superior to or at least on par with Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and Piccolo.
Later during the same episode, Goku and Vegeta had trouble with Super Boo himself, and Goku stated that without any type of fusion, he and Vegeta could not beat Boo even without the boys and Piccolo absorbed. This is a clear contradiction to what Toei displayed earlier in the episode.
When they ripped the good Majin Boo from Super Boo and Kid Boo forms, Kibitoshin stated that Kid Boo was the most powerful form of Boo. Goku decided to fight this Boo by himself, starting off in a filler fight as a Super Saiyan 2 and then ascending to Super Saiyan 3 shortly afterward. During their fight, Goku stated that Kid Boo was on a different level from all of the Boos up to then. When Goku took a short breather, Vegeta told him that he should be able to wipe Boo out with all of his might in the Super Saiyan 3 form, and Goku agreed. This particular moment follows what the manga laid out, but leads into another contradiction:
If Super Saiyan 3 Goku was strong enough to destroy Kid Boo, who was at that point stated twice to be the most powerful form of Boo, but could not beat Super Boo with Vegeta's help, yet was stronger than Ultimate Gohan in just Super Saiyan, what in the world was going on?
This was a case of Toei taking huge liberties with what Akira Toriyama laid out in the manga. Up until Gotenks was absorbed, Toei kept to the manga's hierarchy fairly well, but after that, things began to spiral into contradiction after contradiction as they decided to go their own way while still keeping key parts of the manga intact. Naturally, they would want Son Goku and Kid Boo to be the strongest fighters since they are the main participants in the "final battle." Unlike Toriyama, who knew full well that Goku and Kid Boo were not the strongest despite being in the final battle, Toei thought it fit to change things and, in a twisted, half-brained way, made Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Kid Boo the strongest fighters in the Z anime; this would include even Super Saiyan Vegetto.
To close this chapter of the saga up, as the Genki-Dama was being prepared, the narrator reaffirmed that Kid Boo was the strongest form of Majin Boo.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo = Base Vegetto > Gotenks-Boo > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan >= Base Goku > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = Super Boo > Base Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks > Super Saiyan Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
PART II: The End of Z / 28th Tenkaichi Budokai
Skip ahead ten years to the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, and you have Goku telling Vegeta that someone incredibly strong would be entering the tournament. At the tournament grounds, when Mister Satan and Goku were talking, the Saiyan noted that someone besides them and Good Boo could win. Soon after, Piccolo asserted that Goku's fight with Oob (Kid Boo's reincarnation) would be the one of note, implying any other combination of fighters would not be as important. During the fight, Goku teased Oob and caused him to become enraged, bringing forth enough power for Gohan to excitedly wonder who the human was that could possibly be that powerful (which would thus mean the other humans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu were not that strong). Goku and Oob engaged in a nigh-even fight, and at some point, Goku realized Oob did not know how to use his power, and so ended the match, but not before stating that the human was as amazing as he expected.
If you recall, Goku openly told Vegeta that someone incredible would be in the tournament, and later told Mister Satan that despite all of them and Boo being entered, Oob could be the one to win. On their own, Goku's statements do not mean much, but together, they assert that Goku's expectations were for Oob to be stronger than Good Boo at the very least - these expectations were stated to have been met. Goku fought this person in his regular form in an even battle. If Oob was too powerful for Goku to handle in his regular form, he would have transformed to even the playing field, yet he chose to end the fight and leave to train with the human. While it is an understandable assumption that Oob, while enraged, possessed the same amount of power as Kid Boo, being his reincarnation and all, it is not so firmly backed up in the text, and thus, I will not be assuming that position. If the Saiyans were allowed to transform at the tournament, Goku's expectations would be that someone stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form would be fighting, and he decided to engage this person in his regular form. It would also mean that Good Boo is in the same league as his Super Saiyan 3 power, as he indicated that Boo had a chance of winning as well as them, yet ten years prior, Good Boo was absolutely no match for Skinny Boo, who was only a large portion of Fat Boo's power, who was somewhat weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The assumption would then imply Good Boo trained and became a lot stronger, or the Z Fighters did not grow in power by much at all, or both simultaneously. This is why at this point, I am assuming with good reason that the "no Super Saiyan" rule from the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai was still in effect for the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai as well.
But I digress. At the very least, Base Goku and Oob were noticeably stronger than Good Boo, who was majorly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku prior to the ten year timeskip.
Oob (enraged) = Base Goku (EOZ) > Good Boo > Super Saiyan 2 Goku (10yrs prior)
PART III: The Beginning of Dragon Ball GT
Spoiler: click to toggle
Finally, onto GT.
According to the Perfect Files Volume 1, GT began five years after Z ended. [2] Throughout those five years, Goku and Oob were training intensely in a special room on the Lookout. Shown clearly by their fight in the first episode, the two were basically equals, at least when Goku remained in his regular form. Since they had been training together for five years straight in a specialized room, it is safe to assume they at least reached the power of Kid Boo.
Base Goku = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
In a brief series of unfortunate events, Goku was turned into a kid. He was not stated to have lost any power from this in the show itself, and the Perfect Files Volume 1 note: "His body’s strength doesn’t seem to be any different than when he was an adult, but apparently his small body has diminished his stamina." [3]
Goku then dove into a space adventure with Pan and Trunks to collect the Ultimate Dragon Balls, for if they didn't do so within a year, the Earth would explode. Along the way, Goku encountered a being called Redjic. Redjic was superior to Goku's normal power, but was inferior to his Super Saiyan power.
Super Saiyan Goku (BOGT) > Redjic > Base Goku (BOGT) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
After battling Redjic, eventually the group traveled to Planet M2, where they met up with the Mega Cannon Sigma and General Rild. The individual members of Mega Cannon Sigma were confident in defeating Goku, having the data recorded from his battle with Redjic, including when he used Super Saiyan. During their fight with him, Goku also showed them praise and said it had been a long time since he had met anybody like them. However, even combined, they were no match for Base Goku. This effectively showed that the Saiyan had grown a lot power-wise from his battles in space (remember: this is Toei).
Base Goku (Planet M2) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
After easily defeating the Mega Cannon Sigma, Goku battled General Rild, who he implied was far more impressive than the machines. Base Goku was barely ahead of General Rild, who he stated was "even stronger" than some form of Majin Boo. Rild underwent two power-ups after Goku turned Super Saiyan, and was still at a noticeable disadvantage against the Saiyan; he was inevitably defeated. It is important to note that after Goku transformed, Rild stated that he had not been using "even half" of his power beforehand. This seemingly minor statement implies that the Super Saiyan multiplier was no longer 50-fold or 10-fold or anything large, but in fact was somewhere closer to 2- or 3-fold due to how it was said. If the multiplier was still, say, 50-fold at the time, Rild's observation would be an immense understatement. If the multiplier was truly still 50-fold, for instance, then a better statement would have been: "You weren't using even a tiny fraction of your power before." This is also shown during the filler battles inside Super Boo, as Base Goku goes from being at a slight disadvantage against Fake Gohan to being at a slight advantage after turning Super Saiyan. The multiplier was clearly not anything big in the minds of the Toei staff.
Super Saiyan Goku (Planet M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (Planet M2) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
If you think the above chain is ridiculous due to Goku's power gains, just remember that this is Toei, and the same concept of him receiving unbelievably large amounts of power from seemingly every fight he is in happens in Dragon Ball Movie 4, which Toei made around the same time. Toei themselves tried to lampshade this when they had Goku state during his fight with Baby that Saiyans grow stronger the more they fight.
PART IV: The Baby Saga
Some time later, the group arrived back on Earth with the Ultimate Dragon Balls in hand. Not much time passed before they were assaulted by their Baby-possessed family members.
Goku took on Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goten, and defeated them handily. Though it was implied they were not going all-out on him, it was likewise implied Goku was not utilizing full effort to defend himself. Key information for this portion of the series comes from the Perfect Files again, regarding Gohan: "It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training." [4] This would imply that he trained during the five years between Z and GT, and it was shown that he regained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan (and Super Saiyan 2 against Super #17, presumably). Logically, Gohan's Ultimate power from Z would have been his starting point when training, and any power he gained thereafter would be added onto that. Given the amount of time, it would not be presumptuous to say he had reached the level of Gotenks-Boo by the time GT began, at least. As Baby was implied to add power to Goten while possessing him, it would also seem likely that he added power to Gohan, yet Goku was not outmatched by any noticeable length by the Super Saiyan power of this warrior.
Super Saiyan Goku (Planet M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (Planet M2) = Super Saiyan Gohan (Baby-possessed) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Gotenks-Boo = Base Gohan (BOGT) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
When Goku finally fought Vegeta-Baby, he immediately transformed to Super Saiyan 3 and was still tossed aside by Vegeta's power. According to the Perfect Files, Super Saiyan 2 "seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3," implying the boost from Super Saiyan 2 was nothing noteworthy - certainly less than Super Saiyan 3 and perhaps even less than regular Super Saiyan. [5]
Carrying on, Vegeta-Baby absorbed the Ki from Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra, and powered up so much that Goku stated Baby was the "strongest Ki" he had ever felt.
Super Vegeta-Baby > Vegeta-Baby > Super Saiyan 3 Goku (M2) > Super Saiyan 2 Goku (M2) > Super Saiyan Goku (M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (M2) = Super Saiyan Gohan (Baby-possessed) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Gotenks-Boo = Base Gohan (BOGT) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku
PART V: Conclusion
Spoiler: click to toggle
After all of this, the trouble should be beginning to show itself. By Toei's Z logic:
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo = Base Vegetto > Gotenks-Boo > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan >= Base Goku > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = Super Boo > Base Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks > Super Saiyan Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Yet Base Goku is only barely stronger than General Rild, who was stated stronger than some form of Majin Boo. If that form was Kid Boo, then by the logic set up in Z, Goku should have surpassed that level of power by the beginning of GT, let alone after increasing his strength multifold by the time he fought Rild. Any other form of Boo does not make sense with what is stated in Z, given that Base Goku was already nearly on par with Ultimate Gohan, then trained for ten years, then trained for another five years with Kid Boo's reincarnation that was already stronger than Good Boo, then gained a rather large power-up before fighting Rild. Going by Z's logic, the only power Goku could have be expecting from Oob was Kid Boo's power, whom he was the reincarnation of, after all. That would put Base Goku on par with Kid Boo by the end of Z, effectively making him and an enraged Oob the strongest beings until GT.
Gotenks-Boo does not make sense because according to the Perfect Files, Base Gohan at the beginning of GT is at least on par with his Ultimate self from Z, and then gains power from Baby possessing him and Super Saiyan, which would no doubt put him above said Boo considering that, by addition, said Boo is not even twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. As a Super Saiyan with Baby's power, Gohan was at best slightly stronger than Base Goku (post-space battles).
Gohan-Boo also does not make sense as, by addition, he would not be twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan
Super Boo, Fat Boo, Skinny Boo, and Good Boo do not make sense because Base Goku was already shown to be superior to them, at least in Toei's collective mind.
Base Goku (M2) > Rild > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Sigma Bots > Super Saiyan Goku (Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) > Kid Boo ~ Oob (EOZ) = Base Goku (EOZ) > All other Boos
...simply does not work.
What's more, it would beg the question of why Goku did not comment that Redjic, the Sigma Bots, or the combined Sigmas were stronger than Majin Boo if that was the case, which it would have been going by Z's anime logic.
It should be noted that Toei abandoned their idea of having Base Goku slightly superior to Weighted Pikkon, who was shown to be heavily superior to "Super" Perfect Cell, by the time the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai happened.
Conclusively, if Toei could not be bothered to stick with one asinine chain of anime hax, and could not be bothered to make things consistent in the latter half of the Boo arc, it should be reasonable to claim that they either did not remember what they had done with the Z anime, or simply did not go about GT in that manner.
All credit goes to Pyrus.
PART I: The Boo Saga
To begin, we have to start with the Boo arc in the Z anime. Three times by different characters, Kid Boo is stated to be the most powerful form of Majin Boo - once by Kibitoshin, once by Goku, and once by the narrator himself. In the Dragon Book that comes with Dragon Box 7, Kid Boo is also stated to be the strongest Boo. During the time Goku and Vegeta spend in the body of Super Boo, they fight memories of Gohan, Gotenks, and Piccolo. Vegeta fights Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo, and Goku fights Ultimate Gohan. In the Japanese version, after Gohan knocks Goku back, the full-blooded Saiyan states that this memory of his son is just as strong as the real one. This is also supported by the memories' entry in Daizenshuu 7, which states: "Their power is on par with their real counterparts, and even when defeated they immediately revive." [1] Initially, Goku was overwhelmed by the Fake Gohan, but when he turned Super Saiyan, he took the advantage, if only by a little; on the other hand, Vegeta was becoming overwhelmed by the combined assault of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo. To make matters worse, the fakes did not grow tired and, as their guidebook entry states, came back like new each time they were beaten. The two full-blooded Saiyans were in a pickle until Boo became distracted by some cakes, but this situation showed that at that point, Toei considered Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta to be superior to or at least on par with Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and Piccolo.
Later during the same episode, Goku and Vegeta had trouble with Super Boo himself, and Goku stated that without any type of fusion, he and Vegeta could not beat Boo even without the boys and Piccolo absorbed. This is a clear contradiction to what Toei displayed earlier in the episode.
When they ripped the good Majin Boo from Super Boo and Kid Boo forms, Kibitoshin stated that Kid Boo was the most powerful form of Boo. Goku decided to fight this Boo by himself, starting off in a filler fight as a Super Saiyan 2 and then ascending to Super Saiyan 3 shortly afterward. During their fight, Goku stated that Kid Boo was on a different level from all of the Boos up to then. When Goku took a short breather, Vegeta told him that he should be able to wipe Boo out with all of his might in the Super Saiyan 3 form, and Goku agreed. This particular moment follows what the manga laid out, but leads into another contradiction:
If Super Saiyan 3 Goku was strong enough to destroy Kid Boo, who was at that point stated twice to be the most powerful form of Boo, but could not beat Super Boo with Vegeta's help, yet was stronger than Ultimate Gohan in just Super Saiyan, what in the world was going on?
This was a case of Toei taking huge liberties with what Akira Toriyama laid out in the manga. Up until Gotenks was absorbed, Toei kept to the manga's hierarchy fairly well, but after that, things began to spiral into contradiction after contradiction as they decided to go their own way while still keeping key parts of the manga intact. Naturally, they would want Son Goku and Kid Boo to be the strongest fighters since they are the main participants in the "final battle." Unlike Toriyama, who knew full well that Goku and Kid Boo were not the strongest despite being in the final battle, Toei thought it fit to change things and, in a twisted, half-brained way, made Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Kid Boo the strongest fighters in the Z anime; this would include even Super Saiyan Vegetto.
To close this chapter of the saga up, as the Genki-Dama was being prepared, the narrator reaffirmed that Kid Boo was the strongest form of Majin Boo.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo = Base Vegetto > Gotenks-Boo > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan >= Base Goku > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = Super Boo > Base Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks > Super Saiyan Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
PART II: The End of Z / 28th Tenkaichi Budokai
Skip ahead ten years to the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, and you have Goku telling Vegeta that someone incredibly strong would be entering the tournament. At the tournament grounds, when Mister Satan and Goku were talking, the Saiyan noted that someone besides them and Good Boo could win. Soon after, Piccolo asserted that Goku's fight with Oob (Kid Boo's reincarnation) would be the one of note, implying any other combination of fighters would not be as important. During the fight, Goku teased Oob and caused him to become enraged, bringing forth enough power for Gohan to excitedly wonder who the human was that could possibly be that powerful (which would thus mean the other humans, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu were not that strong). Goku and Oob engaged in a nigh-even fight, and at some point, Goku realized Oob did not know how to use his power, and so ended the match, but not before stating that the human was as amazing as he expected.
If you recall, Goku openly told Vegeta that someone incredible would be in the tournament, and later told Mister Satan that despite all of them and Boo being entered, Oob could be the one to win. On their own, Goku's statements do not mean much, but together, they assert that Goku's expectations were for Oob to be stronger than Good Boo at the very least - these expectations were stated to have been met. Goku fought this person in his regular form in an even battle. If Oob was too powerful for Goku to handle in his regular form, he would have transformed to even the playing field, yet he chose to end the fight and leave to train with the human. While it is an understandable assumption that Oob, while enraged, possessed the same amount of power as Kid Boo, being his reincarnation and all, it is not so firmly backed up in the text, and thus, I will not be assuming that position. If the Saiyans were allowed to transform at the tournament, Goku's expectations would be that someone stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form would be fighting, and he decided to engage this person in his regular form. It would also mean that Good Boo is in the same league as his Super Saiyan 3 power, as he indicated that Boo had a chance of winning as well as them, yet ten years prior, Good Boo was absolutely no match for Skinny Boo, who was only a large portion of Fat Boo's power, who was somewhat weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The assumption would then imply Good Boo trained and became a lot stronger, or the Z Fighters did not grow in power by much at all, or both simultaneously. This is why at this point, I am assuming with good reason that the "no Super Saiyan" rule from the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai was still in effect for the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai as well.
But I digress. At the very least, Base Goku and Oob were noticeably stronger than Good Boo, who was majorly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku prior to the ten year timeskip.
Oob (enraged) = Base Goku (EOZ) > Good Boo > Super Saiyan 2 Goku (10yrs prior)
PART III: The Beginning of Dragon Ball GT
Spoiler: click to toggle
Finally, onto GT.
According to the Perfect Files Volume 1, GT began five years after Z ended. [2] Throughout those five years, Goku and Oob were training intensely in a special room on the Lookout. Shown clearly by their fight in the first episode, the two were basically equals, at least when Goku remained in his regular form. Since they had been training together for five years straight in a specialized room, it is safe to assume they at least reached the power of Kid Boo.
Base Goku = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
In a brief series of unfortunate events, Goku was turned into a kid. He was not stated to have lost any power from this in the show itself, and the Perfect Files Volume 1 note: "His body’s strength doesn’t seem to be any different than when he was an adult, but apparently his small body has diminished his stamina." [3]
Goku then dove into a space adventure with Pan and Trunks to collect the Ultimate Dragon Balls, for if they didn't do so within a year, the Earth would explode. Along the way, Goku encountered a being called Redjic. Redjic was superior to Goku's normal power, but was inferior to his Super Saiyan power.
Super Saiyan Goku (BOGT) > Redjic > Base Goku (BOGT) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
After battling Redjic, eventually the group traveled to Planet M2, where they met up with the Mega Cannon Sigma and General Rild. The individual members of Mega Cannon Sigma were confident in defeating Goku, having the data recorded from his battle with Redjic, including when he used Super Saiyan. During their fight with him, Goku also showed them praise and said it had been a long time since he had met anybody like them. However, even combined, they were no match for Base Goku. This effectively showed that the Saiyan had grown a lot power-wise from his battles in space (remember: this is Toei).
Base Goku (Planet M2) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
After easily defeating the Mega Cannon Sigma, Goku battled General Rild, who he implied was far more impressive than the machines. Base Goku was barely ahead of General Rild, who he stated was "even stronger" than some form of Majin Boo. Rild underwent two power-ups after Goku turned Super Saiyan, and was still at a noticeable disadvantage against the Saiyan; he was inevitably defeated. It is important to note that after Goku transformed, Rild stated that he had not been using "even half" of his power beforehand. This seemingly minor statement implies that the Super Saiyan multiplier was no longer 50-fold or 10-fold or anything large, but in fact was somewhere closer to 2- or 3-fold due to how it was said. If the multiplier was still, say, 50-fold at the time, Rild's observation would be an immense understatement. If the multiplier was truly still 50-fold, for instance, then a better statement would have been: "You weren't using even a tiny fraction of your power before." This is also shown during the filler battles inside Super Boo, as Base Goku goes from being at a slight disadvantage against Fake Gohan to being at a slight advantage after turning Super Saiyan. The multiplier was clearly not anything big in the minds of the Toei staff.
Super Saiyan Goku (Planet M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (Planet M2) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
If you think the above chain is ridiculous due to Goku's power gains, just remember that this is Toei, and the same concept of him receiving unbelievably large amounts of power from seemingly every fight he is in happens in Dragon Ball Movie 4, which Toei made around the same time. Toei themselves tried to lampshade this when they had Goku state during his fight with Baby that Saiyans grow stronger the more they fight.
PART IV: The Baby Saga
Some time later, the group arrived back on Earth with the Ultimate Dragon Balls in hand. Not much time passed before they were assaulted by their Baby-possessed family members.
Goku took on Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goten, and defeated them handily. Though it was implied they were not going all-out on him, it was likewise implied Goku was not utilizing full effort to defend himself. Key information for this portion of the series comes from the Perfect Files again, regarding Gohan: "It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training." [4] This would imply that he trained during the five years between Z and GT, and it was shown that he regained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan (and Super Saiyan 2 against Super #17, presumably). Logically, Gohan's Ultimate power from Z would have been his starting point when training, and any power he gained thereafter would be added onto that. Given the amount of time, it would not be presumptuous to say he had reached the level of Gotenks-Boo by the time GT began, at least. As Baby was implied to add power to Goten while possessing him, it would also seem likely that he added power to Gohan, yet Goku was not outmatched by any noticeable length by the Super Saiyan power of this warrior.
Super Saiyan Goku (Planet M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (Planet M2) = Super Saiyan Gohan (Baby-possessed) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Gotenks-Boo = Base Gohan (BOGT) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Planet Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Planet Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku (EOZ) = Oob (EOZ) > Good Boo
When Goku finally fought Vegeta-Baby, he immediately transformed to Super Saiyan 3 and was still tossed aside by Vegeta's power. According to the Perfect Files, Super Saiyan 2 "seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3," implying the boost from Super Saiyan 2 was nothing noteworthy - certainly less than Super Saiyan 3 and perhaps even less than regular Super Saiyan. [5]
Carrying on, Vegeta-Baby absorbed the Ki from Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra, and powered up so much that Goku stated Baby was the "strongest Ki" he had ever felt.
Super Vegeta-Baby > Vegeta-Baby > Super Saiyan 3 Goku (M2) > Super Saiyan 2 Goku (M2) > Super Saiyan Goku (M2) > Meta-Rild > Hyper Metal Rild > Base Goku (M2) = Super Saiyan Gohan (Baby-possessed) > General Rild > Majin Boo > Gotenks-Boo = Base Gohan (BOGT) > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Neji > Veise > Nutt > Super Saiyan Goku (Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) = Kid Boo > Base Goku
PART V: Conclusion
Spoiler: click to toggle
After all of this, the trouble should be beginning to show itself. By Toei's Z logic:
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo = Base Vegetto > Gotenks-Boo > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan >= Base Goku > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = Super Boo > Base Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks > Super Saiyan Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Yet Base Goku is only barely stronger than General Rild, who was stated stronger than some form of Majin Boo. If that form was Kid Boo, then by the logic set up in Z, Goku should have surpassed that level of power by the beginning of GT, let alone after increasing his strength multifold by the time he fought Rild. Any other form of Boo does not make sense with what is stated in Z, given that Base Goku was already nearly on par with Ultimate Gohan, then trained for ten years, then trained for another five years with Kid Boo's reincarnation that was already stronger than Good Boo, then gained a rather large power-up before fighting Rild. Going by Z's logic, the only power Goku could have be expecting from Oob was Kid Boo's power, whom he was the reincarnation of, after all. That would put Base Goku on par with Kid Boo by the end of Z, effectively making him and an enraged Oob the strongest beings until GT.
Gotenks-Boo does not make sense because according to the Perfect Files, Base Gohan at the beginning of GT is at least on par with his Ultimate self from Z, and then gains power from Baby possessing him and Super Saiyan, which would no doubt put him above said Boo considering that, by addition, said Boo is not even twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. As a Super Saiyan with Baby's power, Gohan was at best slightly stronger than Base Goku (post-space battles).
Gohan-Boo also does not make sense as, by addition, he would not be twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan
Super Boo, Fat Boo, Skinny Boo, and Good Boo do not make sense because Base Goku was already shown to be superior to them, at least in Toei's collective mind.
Base Goku (M2) > Rild > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Sigma Bots > Super Saiyan Goku (Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) > Kid Boo ~ Oob (EOZ) = Base Goku (EOZ) > All other Boos
...simply does not work.
What's more, it would beg the question of why Goku did not comment that Redjic, the Sigma Bots, or the combined Sigmas were stronger than Majin Boo if that was the case, which it would have been going by Z's anime logic.
It should be noted that Toei abandoned their idea of having Base Goku slightly superior to Weighted Pikkon, who was shown to be heavily superior to "Super" Perfect Cell, by the time the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai happened.
Conclusively, if Toei could not be bothered to stick with one asinine chain of anime hax, and could not be bothered to make things consistent in the latter half of the Boo arc, it should be reasonable to claim that they either did not remember what they had done with the Z anime, or simply did not go about GT in that manner.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 3,424
- Age
- 28
I read it and I don't understand what you mean
Even Pyrus showed he doesn't know what GT follows but just showed how everything makes no sense
GT Base Goku > GT SSjin Gohan and not equal to.. Anyway if GT SSjin Goku >> GT Base Goku >> GT SSjin Gohan >> GT Base Gohan >> Ultimate Gohan, then SSjin 3 Goku can't be weaker than SSjin Vegetto
Even Pyrus showed he doesn't know what GT follows but just showed how everything makes no sense
GT Base Goku > GT SSjin Gohan and not equal to.. Anyway if GT SSjin Goku >> GT Base Goku >> GT SSjin Gohan >> GT Base Gohan >> Ultimate Gohan, then SSjin 3 Goku can't be weaker than SSjin Vegetto
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 9,203
Yes he can, the multipliers are smaller than Z's.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 3,424
- Age
- 28
SSjin is likely 2.5x stronger than base in GT
GT Base Gohan equals Gotenks-Boo... GT SSjin Gohan is over 2x Gohan-Boo... GT Base Goku is much stronger than SSjin Gohan
SSjin Goku is 2.5x stonger than his base form and SSjin 3 Goku is at least 4x stronger
No way he is weaker than SSjin Vegetto
GT Base Gohan equals Gotenks-Boo... GT SSjin Gohan is over 2x Gohan-Boo... GT Base Goku is much stronger than SSjin Gohan
SSjin Goku is 2.5x stonger than his base form and SSjin 3 Goku is at least 4x stronger
No way he is weaker than SSjin Vegetto
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 9,203
Base Vegetto: 2
Gohan-Buu: 8
General Rild: 9
Base Goku: 10
-SS3: 62.5
Base Vegeta-Baby: 75
-SVB1: 112.5
Super Vegetto: 100
How does this not work?
Gohan-Buu: 8
General Rild: 9
Base Goku: 10
-SS3: 62.5
Base Vegeta-Baby: 75
-SVB1: 112.5
Super Vegetto: 100
How does this not work?
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 3,424
- Age
- 28
SSjin Vegetto is not that much stronger than Gohan-Boo... SSjin 3 Goku should be way more than 6.25 Base Goku
GT Base Gohan is stronger than Ultimate Gohan and his SSjin is weaker than Base Goku
Even without multipliers it's ridiculous to have Baby weaker than SSjin Vegetto when GT Base Goku > Gohan-Boo
GT Base Gohan is stronger than Ultimate Gohan and his SSjin is weaker than Base Goku
Even without multipliers it's ridiculous to have Baby weaker than SSjin Vegetto when GT Base Goku > Gohan-Boo
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
Perhaps Vegito is that much stronger than Boohan. Beside we have statement to support that Vegito wa surpassed by Super Baby 1.
And you said Baby Vegeta was stated to surpassed Vegito because he's the main villan sounds ridicilous.
And you said Baby Vegeta was stated to surpassed Vegito because he's the main villan sounds ridicilous.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2015
- Messages
- 3,424
- Age
- 28
Him being the main villain makes the story want to hype him
SSjin Vegetto is not 10x Gohan-Boo.. He had to block him with his feets... I have him 6x stronger
Besides the fact Base Goku > Gohan-Boo and stronger than GT SSjin Gohan who is stronger than Base Gohan who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, there is no way Baby is weaker than SSjin Vegetto
GT SSjin 3 Goku should be > SSjin Vegetto based on it
Though I have to admit Pyrus's explanation sounds pretty good and probably good enough to not hype GT.. However, I still think that GT follows the Anime hax because it's TOEI... Goku obviously referred to Pure Boo when he aid Rildo is stronger imo
SSjin Vegetto is not 10x Gohan-Boo.. He had to block him with his feets... I have him 6x stronger
Besides the fact Base Goku > Gohan-Boo and stronger than GT SSjin Gohan who is stronger than Base Gohan who is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, there is no way Baby is weaker than SSjin Vegetto
GT SSjin 3 Goku should be > SSjin Vegetto based on it
Though I have to admit Pyrus's explanation sounds pretty good and probably good enough to not hype GT.. However, I still think that GT follows the Anime hax because it's TOEI... Goku obviously referred to Pure Boo when he aid Rildo is stronger imo
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 41,541
- Age
- 25
That's not a good explanation at all.
Hyping him is true. But what kind hype was that? The hype was that he's the strongest ever. And Goku said "I never felt n awesome ki like this" which completely destroy your first argument.
Hyping him is true. But what kind hype was that? The hype was that he's the strongest ever. And Goku said "I never felt n awesome ki like this" which completely destroy your first argument.
