Super Saiyan 3 Boost

[Goku9001]

Of course, Goku in general got stronger nobody can deny that. Gohan's genki given to its very limits is all the required proof to disprove their notion.

The narrative doesn't print what you're claiming, Goku & Vegeta were the ones that understimated him and were carefree, the Kaioshins were cautious about Kid Buu. Also he knows that by Shin, who in this situation, was more reliable than him as he knows Kid Buu far better than anyone on there (regardless or that he knows everything about him is a different thing).

We don't know how genki translates to battle power so it's not really proof of anything.

Actually, it does. The narrative clearly shows that Elder Kaioshin is oblivious to what Buu is capable of which is explicitly why Kaioshin walks the Elder through Buu's history. In fact, Elder Kaioshin makes the statement of Kid Buu being the most "troublesome" on the basis of what Kaioshin said. That is, everyone that Buu absorbed had "tamed" him and made him more easily controlled. That restraint dissipated when he returned back to Kid Buu.

Spoiler

So yes, just like Goku and Vegeta, Elder Kaioshin was in the dark about Kid Buu's abilities. Kaioshin didn't disagree but he inaccurately judged his own potara fusion with Kibito so what does he know, right? Vegetto is heavily implied to be capable of beating Kid Buu but that's irrelevant when all of the characters don't really know what they're talking about. Therefore, Kid Buu < Vegetto is not proven.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

We don't know how genki translates to battle power so it's not really proof of anything.

Genki is ki, both means energy in japanese.

Gohan not only use genki to give energy, he also use his genki on every single ki attack he uses, at what point the limitations that lacks of exists are going to dissapear?

Actually, it does. The narrative clearly shows that Elder Kaioshin is oblivious to what Buu is capable of which is explicitly why Kaioshin walks the Elder through Buu's history. In fact, Elder Kaioshin makes the statement of Kid Buu being the most "troublesome" on the basis of what Kaioshin said. That is, everyone that Buu absorbed had "tamed" him and made him more easily controlled. That restraint dissipated when he returned back to Kid Buu.

Spoiler

He has just seen Kibito Kaioshin getting scared after Buff Buu turned into Kid Buu, then he asked someone wiser in this case (Kibito Kaioshin) and proceeds to explain him the different evolutions of Buu, in relation to how Goku & Vegeta are portrayed, he is being rational, as unlike them, he didn't mock his size, he yelled towards Goku for reject the Potara & didn't compare him with Fat Buu, which is something Goku do before fighting him.

So yes, just like Goku and Vegeta, Elder Kaioshin was in the dark about Kid Buu's abilities. Kaioshin didn't disagree but he inaccurately judged his own potara fusion with Kibito so what does he know, right? Vegetto is heavily implied to be capable of beating Kid Buu but that's irrelevant when all of the characters don't really know what they're talking about. Therefore, Kid Buu < Vegetto is not proven.

Old Kaioshin told Kibitoshin to give to Potara so they can easily defeat Buu, if Kibito Kaioshin, who knows Kid Buu from his very beginning (even though, clearly doesn't know that he wasn't actually created, but exists since immemorial times) & acknowledges him as the most troublesome Buu, is not disagreeging with that idea... in which narrative, Kid Buu > Vegetto is possible? How can Vegetto's capabilities be accurately judged to begin with?

 

[Goku9001]

Genki is ki, both means energy in japanese.

Gohan not only use genki to give energy, he also use his genki on every single ki attack he uses, at what point the limitations that lacks of exists are going to dissapear?

He has just seen Kibito Kaioshin getting scared after Buff Buu turned into Kid Buu, then he asked someone wiser in this case (Kibito Kaioshin) and proceeds to explain him the different evolutions of Buu, in relation to how Goku & Vegeta are portrayed, he is being rational, as unlike them, he didn't mock his size, he yelled towards Goku for reject the Potara & didn't compare him with Fat Buu, which is something Goku do before fighting him.

Old Kaioshin told Kibitoshin to give to Potara so they can easily defeat Buu, if Kibito Kaioshin, who knows Kid Buu from his very beginning (even though, clearly doesn't know that he wasn't actually created, but exists since immemorial times) & acknowledges him as the most troublesome Buu, is not disagreeging with that idea... in which narrative, Kid Buu > Vegetto is possible? How can Vegetto's capabilities be accurately judged to begin with?

Genki is actually just a component of ki. We don't know how that translates to actual battle power. Ginyu presumably retained Goku's genki when he seized control over it. The main reason his battle power was many times lower was due to his inability to use Goku's power properly. I don't think there's a 1:1 relationship here.

It really doesn't matter. Elder Kaioshin has no recollection of Buu and requires Kaioshin to give him the details. Elder Kaioshin pleading the Saiyans to use the potaras is a reflection of his character, not any knowledge. Elder Kaioshin just wants to take precautions regardless of how powerful their opponent is because it's Buu and the whole universe is at stake.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Genki is actually just a component of ki. We don't know how that translates to actual battle power. Ginyu presumably retained Goku's genki when he seized control over it. The main reason his battle power was many times lower was due to his inability to use Goku's power properly. I don't think there's a 1:1 relationship here.

Of course, but Gohan use genki on every ki attack, it's not exclusive to just give energy. He still uses his energy, not one component of it.

It really doesn't matter. Elder Kaioshin has no recollection of Buu and requires Kaioshin to give him the details. Elder Kaioshin pleading the Saiyans to use the potaras is a reflection of his character, not any knowledge. Elder Kaioshin just wants to take precautions regardless of how powerful their opponent is because it's Buu and the whole universe is at stake.

And at no point shows an irrational behaviour, he treat him as the threat he is, and just after the few information Kibito Kaioshin gave him is enough to be cautious with him.

Old Kaioshin considers Kid Buu as the most troublesome Buu, despite of him and Buff Buu being uncontrollable, does it sound like is he underrating him? Despite of everything, he considers that Vegetto could easily defeat Kid Buu. Then, what reason is there to think that he is underrating him (which is your main premise on why he is invalid)?

 

[Goku9001]

@Natasha Romanoff

I don't think you realized that I was using your argument against you. You blatantly ignore the narrative because you feel characters are not trustworthy until it is at your convenience. Elder Kaioshin doesn't know anything about Buu. He only assumes that Pure Buu is the most troublesome one based on what he heard and he happened to be correct. But yes, Kid Buu is the most troublesome so he can be stronger than Vegetto. The only one who has first-hand experience with Pure Buu's strength is Kaioshin and he clearly has shown to be an idiot.

There is no evidence that Vegetto > Kid Buu. He could be stronger but it's not definitive.

With the genki argument, since genki is a component of ki, then his attacks do use genki. Clearly, most attacks in the series don't use that much genki. One of the only attacks that do is Tenshinhan's Kikoho which drains his lifeforce which is explicitly why it's so powerful. The majority of attacks don't have that effect.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It exists no correlation with Buu being the most troublesome Buu with him being capable of defeating Vegetto, unless you assume that Vegetto is a Buu, unlike a fused saiyan.

My convenience? If it was for my convenience and which characters I like, I guess I don't assume that Vegeta is really that weak in the Buu Saga, even though, I accept he is.

Old Kaioshin accepts that Kid Buu is the most troublesome Buu, even though Buu was uncontrollable prior to absorbing Dai Kaioshin. Kibito Kaioshin didn't disagree on that; as well as he doesn't disagree with Vegetto being able to easily defeat Buu. Old Kaioshin and Kibito Kaioshin, as well as Goku and Vegeta have different concepts of Kid Buu, while ones accept that Buu got weaker absorbing Dai Kaioshin, Goku consider Kid Buu as Fat Buu's equal and Vegeta himself accepts to underestimating him.

Hmm no, Kibito Kaioshin states that he got drained by giving all he got of his own energy by the Genkidama. If anything, genki has to be exponential even if it's a concept apart from ki to be able to kill someone due to the energy and amount of effort given.

Spoiler

 

[ahill1]

They didn't even eat and were fresh out of power from SSJ3 and fusion though. I doubt just an hour of rest would restore Galu after SSJ3 similarly drained all his Ki.

But it's also made a case that both fusers have to be at full power before fusing as Goku and Piccolo stated they had to power up to maximum. I think it was a matter of them being already at FP after 1 hour, otherwise the fusion would just not be that efficient. Goten and Trunks are also splitting the straining of SSj3, so maybe it's not as straining as just one being using SSj3.

 

[Papasmurf]

But it's also made a case that both fusers have to be at full power before fusing as Goku and Piccolo stated they had to power up to maximum. I think it was a matter of them being already at FP after 1 hour, otherwise the fusion would just not be that efficient. Goten and Trunks are also splitting the straining of SSj3, so maybe it's not as straining as just one being using SSj3.

They don't have to be at full power, otherwise Trunks would be disqualified since he was always suppressing to match Goten. Fusion also seems to have a degree of healing effect since all fusions canonically have appeared without injuries even when the fusees were beaten up beforehand such as with Vegetto and Kefla

 

[ahill1]

They don't have to be at full power, otherwise Trunks would be disqualified since he was always suppressing to match Goten. Fusion also seems to have a degree of healing effect since all fusions canonically have appeared without injuries even when the fusees were beaten up beforehand such as with Vegetto and Kefla

They don't have to be at FP for the fusion to occur, but it's obviously more effective that way, otherwise they wouldn't have to power up to FP for Trunks then to have to slightly adjust his chi to Goten's.

 

[Papasmurf]

Perhaps. It's weird how SSJ3 drained all of Gotenks' Ki and split him in half but they seemed fine shortly afterward. Goku was too weakened to even control the Genki Dama after SSJ3.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

What are you guys' opinions on the x4 boost? I know x2 for SSJ2 is too small, but is x4 for SSJ3 just as bad?

I just know the SSJ 3 boost is when you go "further beyond! ***Epic music***"

 

[ahill1]

Perhaps. It's weird how SSJ3 drained all of Gotenks' Ki and split him in half but they seemed fine shortly afterward. Goku was too weakened to even control the Genki Dama after SSJ3.

I also think that the effectiveness of the fusion is directly tied to the fusers stamina because Boo could prolong the time of the fusion much more, with the more likely explanation being his stamina. Goten and Trunks were also visibly tired when they finished fusing in the RoSaT and Piccolo stated they'd have 6 hours to rest. I think them resting and going back to FP is then essential to use the fusion's full potential. They didn't seem that drained when they defused vs Super Boo, maybe fusing a second time made the toll on their bodies lower or they tested more special attacks as SSJ3 Gotens in the room, dunno. They also affected Boo significantly as his shape when Piccolo was the only one affecting him compared to when Goten and Trunks were also in the picture are rather different, so I don't think they'd be that weakened either. I dunno tho.

 

[The_Authority]

I never understood why a 2x Super Saiyan 2 boost was "too small." Base x100 isn't bad at all. Likewise, a 4x Super Saiyan 3 boost--or base x400--isn't bad at all either.

Let's go by Daizenshuu's numbers for the Saiyan fight for a bit:

Goku: 8,000
Nappa: 4,000
Nappa (full power): 6,000
Piccolo: 3,500
Tenshinhan (using the Kikōho): 4,580

So, Goku was "only" 2x stronger than Nappa, but handily beat him. Goku was only 1/3 stronger than full-powered Nappa.

Full-powered Nappa was less than 90% stronger than Tenshinhan's Kikōho, but he managed to survive it with no issues. So, even full-powered Nappa was less than 2x stronger and we've seen how much of a difference it made.

Normal Nappa was only any 12% stronger than Piccolo. Full-powered Nappa was less than 70% stronger than Piccolo--again less than 2x.

And as the series progressed, these numbers just got more and more out of control. I can easily see a 2x boost being the difference been getting beaten up to suddenly dominating.

So, sure, I'll take the boost as written.

 

[ahill1]

I think 4x sounds ideal. It can't be considerably below as Good Boo is << 50% fat Boo and still >> SSj2... and 4x is a big gap, it doesn't need to be more than that either. So it sounds right on the mark. SEG was good for proposing SSj multipliers imo, maybe SSj2 sounds a little low for CGs, but it's workable still, specially in the Boo arc.

 

[Goku9001]

I still think it's too low. I think SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Budokai) still has to be much stronger than SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta. When Vegeta admits to there being a significant gap between him and Goku and Teen Gohan having a power that is pathetic to Vegeta, it's hard for me to envision it being just 2x.

Within the Cell Games, unless you apply an arbitrary rage boost, it's literally impossible for it to be 2x since Injured Kid Gohan still remains as a Super Saiyan 2.