Tao Pai Pai (1st appearence) vs Yamcha (22nd Budokai)

[ahill1]

Yeah that's true

 

[ahill1]

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished”

If he said tarnished then one could argue there was a considerable gap between both. But "I get the feeling my position has already vanished" makes it seem like the gap between the full match level Goku and Roshi is kinda small, right? He "gets the feeling", and his position as a master likely. If Goku is above him, then his position has vanished.

Tsuru's also shows uncertainty over Tao's defeat... "He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai". So both Roshi showing he may have been surpassed and Goku may having been good enough to defeat Tao gives a sense of Roshi ~ Tao, do you agree. That's kinda reflected into my numbers:

Tao : 85
Roshi : 90
Goku (full match level) : 95

Goku's battle vs Tao was more one sided than "may have been good enough to defeat Tao", as in assuming that was the level shown when Goku defeated Tao, but maybe Tsuru was also counting with Tao having used his sword which was giving Goku a hard time without using his Nyoibo, so I think the statement fits with that level being the one used to beat Tao.

It's a little weird though because that wasn't simply a display of power... Seemed more like a technique that relied heavily on speed, which Roshi couldn't even see, implying it was a speed level considerably above Roshi's... So maybe this wasn't the sole level they took into account, that speed display. It was that level in conjuntion with the more serious level Goku used when he said he'd increase the pacing vs Kuririn. So maybe the [more serious] Goku which was proving himself too much for Kuririn may be a level below both Roshi and Tao but coupled with this speed technique, which isn't normally employed in the fight, being more like a bonus, maybe cementing skillset enough for them to be surpassed when taking both into account... Maybe? Sometimes Goku just flat out disappears, maybe focusing more on speed than power to make himself as fast as possible. So perhaps this disappearing thing came as a bonus on top of the previous < Roshi and < Tao level he was using beforehand when whooping Kuririn and forcing him to grab his tail? Kinda like:

Goku (vs Kuririn initially) 66
Kuririn : 66
Goku (more serious) : 80
Tao : 86
Roshi : 90
Goku (vs Tao) : 95
Goku's speed (when disappearing) : 110

so before increasing his speed, he was still below Tao and Roshi, but when using super speed, he was above both... So his power (below both) in conjunction with his speed technique focusing heavily on speed may have convinced both Roshi and Tsuru that gathering both attributes, Roshi and Tao may have been defeated.

When Goku started vs Ten though, he still didn't show his super speed, but I'd say his hitting power and overall intensity was already above that used vs Kuririn. Maybe he upped it to 95 (former battle level) then used 110 to disappear (I don't think Roshi would be unable to see Goku if his speed were barely below Goku's). Tenshinhan had to struggle to see that too.

Then Goku used his battle level (125) which could gather both strength and speed into that.

So Goku's power when more serious < Tao and << Roshi coupled with Goku's speed when trying >> Tao and Roshi made the statement, like, taking his inferior strength but considerably superior speed in conjunction, we may have been surpassed... And the level Goku used vs Tao happening to fall right in the middle of his more serious power vs Kuririn and super speed display (110 + 80)
-------2-------- = 95 (level used vs Tao and the mid term between his previous strength and speed showdown).

Maybe something like this? Makes sense?

@Fantastische Hure

@GreatSaiyaman123

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I can’t read

Spoiler

all of that.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I guess some of it does make sense. It’s too much.

 

[ahill1]

Well, I'd like some opinions.

 

[ahill1]

@FeatsofPower

Maybe you're the only one crazy enough to venture into this field

 

[Animelover5487]

I actually really like the idea of Tao being top tier, even going into the 22nd budokai. This also makes BoDB Oozaru Goku being stronger than Gohan make more sense, I don't really see much reason for Gohan to get alot stronger after dying, and we know for a fact Goku got several times stronger after Korin Tower.

Plus why would Goku get a huge boost just from aimlessly traveling without learning anything new?

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah I get that Goku not going all out vs Gohan was never mentioned and hint at the moment. I bet Toriyama thought of that as Goku's FP too. But with him later inserting things making Tao relevant, with Tenshinhan believing it should be out of luck that Tao was defeated after tasting Yamcha's powers and having already seen part of Kuririn vs Chaozu, which had already portrayed Kuririn's h2h expertise, it just makes it seem like Toriyama doesn't envision the Kame's students showplay at the 22nd as enough to defeat Tao.

Is this not the exact same logic that you have a problem with in regards to the Base Saiyans vs Piccolo debate?

 

[FeatsofPower]

@FeatsofPower

Maybe you're the only one crazy enough to venture into this field

Why would Tao win? Because a couple people overhyped his legend?

 

[SSJ2]

Tsuru's denial is evident in the 23rd Budokai. He is completely full of it in regards to his brother. Even after Tenshinhan utterly knocked Tao on his ass, Tsuru thought a mere blade would be enough to kill him. He's either a terrible judge of someone's power or he's completely delusional.

 

[ahill1]

Is this not the exact same logic that you have a problem with in regards to the Base Saiyans vs Piccolo debate?

Well that's a good catch there for sure, but there we'd have to assume one Cell Junior in specific was nicer than the other ones... Once the intent was to have everyone eating dirty. And besides, Trunks also reacted in shock towards Goku labeling Piccolo as useless which backs up Piccolo's relevance. And the base Saiyans thing, regardless, have enough wiggle room to me since I don't think Gohan expected Piccolo to go as hard as he could on him with Piccolo knowing Gohan was handicapping himself, don't tou think it makes sense? And there's no telling who they would draw firstly, Vegeta got Goku firstly, so he could easily follow the base rule because the conditions were the same and it'd be tournament over for him. So there're much more variables to me preventing from taking the Cell Juniors vs Piccolo battle at face value, even moreso with the kids being implied to be close to Gohan in the same states and yet at 18's level in base, so the same arc is shown to put holes into that logic, also being known for being an inconsistent mess overall, like a sudden change of attitude from Shin, among other things. It doesn't come as straightforward to me as the relevance they put on Tao having already seen how strong Yamcha and Kuririn were, so since there's also Goku stating to Ten that now he knows it goes beyond a tournament and he has killing intention, he will use his battle level, I find wiggle room enough to fit in Baba's tournament compared to a to kill or to die mentality vs Tao.

 

[ahill1]

Tsuru's denial is evident in the 23rd Budokai. He is completely full of it in regards to his brother. Even after Tenshinhan utterly knocked Tao on his ass, Tsuru thought a mere blade would be enough to kill him. He's either a terrible judge of someone's power or he's completely delusional.

He was caught in the heat of the battle there, as are most villains. With Goku vs Tao, he didn't show denial. He'd if he always denied it happening... Since he acknowledged it as a strong possibility once Goku defeated Kuririn, he isn't averse to admit otherwise. He just has a specific level from Tao which he needs to observe from Goku to know whether he was surpassed. The statement wasn't portrayed in a way of denial, either. Generally statements portrayed as denailism comes with arrogance and emotion being shown, like Freeza vs SSJ Goku, Cell vs Gohan... Or Tsuru who was screaming all emotionally in the 23rd. There, he thought it to himself, having seen the level shown by Goku and admitting it as a strong possibility. It came from a "ofc it was luck" to "he may be it was indeed strong enough"... That isn't denial, that is assessing one level as incompetent to achieve that and the other as enough to have done so.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You guys are being mad selective with this. Why is Tsuru the only guy ever that gets to be in denial? He didn’t even see Goku vs Chappa.

 

[SSJ2]

You guys are being mad selective with this. Why is Tsuru the only guy ever that gets to be in denial? He didn’t even see Goku vs Chappa.

Nobody is saying that he's in denial the entire time. Look at his reaction upon hearing that Goku beat Tao, he immediately tries to write it off as luck. After this, despite acknowledging that Goku @ Panputto probably could have beaten Tao, he's still not willing to fully admit it until he sees Goku's real abilities. None of this has to mean that Tao was only surpassed once Goku used his Match Level power. Tsuru simply wasn't open to the truth until it was painfully obvious to him.



You can see it written all over his face. He finally recognized just how wrong he was about Goku in general.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nobody is saying that he's in denial the entire time. Look at his reaction upon hearing that Goku beat Tao, he immediately tries to write it off as luck. After this, despite acknowledging that Goku @ Panputto probably could have beaten Tao, he's still not willing to fully admit it until he sees Goku's real abilities. None of this has to mean that Tao was only surpassed once Goku used his Match Level power. Tsuru simply wasn't open to the truth until it was painfully obvious to him.

View attachment 2701

You can see it written all over his face. He finally recognized just how wrong he was about Goku in general.

Why would he even believe that without evidence? He’s just been told some random kid killed the world’s best assassin. What are the odds?

I get the opposite feeling from the Pamputto fight. He and Tien are open to the idea Goku really is strong, but that fight isn’t enough. If Pamputto is 21st Goku level, then fighters below Tao can still beat him like Goku did.

 

[SSJ2]

Why would he even believe that without evidence? He’s just been told some random kid killed the world’s best assassin. What are the odds?

Exactly, which is why it was hard of him to admit it without seeing Goku truly fight.

I get the opposite feeling from the Pamputto fight. He and Tien are open to the idea Goku really is strong, but that fight isn’t enough. If Pamputto is 21st Goku level, then fighters below Tao can still beat him like Goku did.

It was enough to make Tenshinhan basically cream himself. He seemed to realize what they were dealing with then and there, whereas Tsuru was more hesitant to fully believe it until later on.

 

[ahill1]

The way Goku dealt with Panpoot made Tenshinhan think of the tournament as a more worthwhile thing... Just like how Goku could access Ten was really good based on his fast hits vs that random preliminaries fighter, they had a good eye for each other. The display vs Panpoot only made the idea not so ridiculous to Tsuru. It opened his eyes to that "perhaps" being the case... He didn't believe it happened without luck based on the Yamcha and Kuririn's level he saw. When Goku defeated Kuririn he said "now I see how Tao could have been defeated" as posted above. That was the display of power needed to make it a plausible thing whereas the hype from the Panpoot fight warranted merely a "peharps that was the case". Finishing Kuririn opening Tsuru to this idea, after having pretty much seen Yamcha and Kuririn's level, which shows their level wasn't enough to defeat Tao. He's seen sweatting and nervous in that power because Goku just happened to be that good... As was Roshi intensely analysing Goku's power post the match with a serious expression. That face doesn't imply anything other than being amazed and giving credit to Goku's feat.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, I can totally see Goku vs Pamput being meant to be the end of this "Did he really beat Tao?" plotline, but then Toriyama forgot and made Tsuru say it again after the Kuririn fight.

The big deal here is the pre-Pamput chapters. Tien just fought Yamcha, and they're watching Kuririn vs Chaozu right now. If they're above Tao, what's the big deal with Goku being above Tao?

 

[SSJ2]

To be fair, I can totally see Goku vs Pamput being meant to be the end of this "Did he really beat Tao?" plotline, but then Toriyama forgot and made Tsuru say it again after the Kuririn fight.

This is my line of thinking as well.

The big deal here is the pre-Pamput chapters. Tien just fought Yamcha, and they're watching Kuririn vs Chaozu right now. If they're above Tao, what's the big deal with Goku being above Tao?

Rereading the preliminaries makes me question a few things. Number one, Goku vs Chappa is literally said to be a measuring stick by Roshi to see how Goku developed over the last 3 years. Roshi, who witnessed the fight against Gohan was completely shocked by how easily Chappa was defeated. Not only this, but Krillin and Yamcha were already afraid of going against Goku at that point in time... and were in disbelief that Goku could block all of the Hasshuken. Do we have reason to believe that Krillin and Yamcha are actually ahead of Chappa? Goku was more excited to fight Krillin and Yamcha but they were clearly afraid after that display, and even thought Goku was going all out there.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Rereading the preliminaries makes me question a few things. Number one, Goku vs Chappa is literally said to be a measuring stick by Roshi to see how Goku developed over the last 3 years. Roshi, who witnessed the fight against Gohan was completely shocked by how easily Chappa was defeated. Not only this, but Krillin and Yamcha were already afraid of going against Goku at that point in time... and were in disbelief that Goku could block all of the Hasshuken. Do we have reason to believe that Krillin and Yamcha are actually ahead of Chappa? Goku was more excited to fight Krillin and Yamcha but they were clearly afraid after that display, and even thought Goku was going all out there.

Don't forget they can tell each other's improvements just by seeing them take out random fodder, so Goku taking out someone who's actually strong makes Chappa an even more relevant measuring stick. If Roshi hadn't said Goku would need all his power to maybe squeak by, there'd be some leeway for nerfing Chappa.

It's not just the fact that Goku defeated Chappa, but that he did so with utter ease and while heavily suppressed. Even Roshi was shaking after that reveal. I'd say Kuririn and Yamcha can also beat Chappa, but they'd need full power and more than a couple blows to finish him. The stuff when Goku dodges by breathing looks like something they couldn't pull off as well, so it would be a more straight fight.